No Insulation [Snowbird Hightop Van Build]

[CarmeCoolidge]

I vote for no insulation. That's how I did my build. My reasoning was that I do not live the van full-time, only use it on road trips, and I don't generally travel when it's very cold or very hot. And even if I did live in the van full-time, I'd be seeking out places to stay, around the year, that avoided either very hot or very cold.

Yes! Snowbird all the way. You do bring up a big plus that I knew about but had no way of knowing just how much space I could save. Thank you for the cabinet example example, big plus to no insulation!

 

[dustytrailhead]

. And even if I did live in the van full-time, I'd be seeking out places to stay, around the year, that avoided either very hot or very cold.

 

[WayOutWest]

Yes! Snowbird all the way. You do bring up a big plus that I knew about but had no way of knowing just how much space I could save. Thank you for the cabinet example example, big plus to no insulation!

Yes I haven't seen/heard anyone talk about this aspect...the amount of space saved by not using insulation, and in particular how it could factor in as cabinet space. This photo shows one part of my van conversion...photo one shows a lower panel I am about to install, where I created two cabinets that use only the space inside the van wall. So the cabinet doors are flush to the surface of the van interior, and the 4 inch deep space inside is sufficient for many items...I use one of these cabinets to store 2 wine bottles.
The second photo shows my bed on the passenger side of the cargo area, and the 2 large "medicine cabinet" cabinets on that wall. These also use ONLY the space INSIDE the van wall, so the cabinet doors are flush with the van interior surface (the 1/4 plywood mounted on the van surface) and these cabinets store a LOT of things. Yes they are small items, no more than 4 inch depth, but we do carry a lot of small things with us. Eg shampoo bottles, toiletries, first aid kit, flashlights, batteries, even cans of food all fit in here.
Note this is not the final van conversion shown...I did more work and installed cabinets/shelving in the back of the van behind the bed, as there is a good 11 inches of space back there to be used. And as I did this I realized that it was a good thing I hadn't gotten a van with rear windows, as I'd have been reluctant to cover those up with cabinets and shelves. But the back cabinets are important storage space for me and I'd have lost those if I thought I needed to preserve the space just to be able to look out the back windows. Check out a lot of van build videos and in most cases I think you'll see that people who have rear windows, end up covering them up most of the time, with removable covers if nothing else. Rear windows are not as practical IMO as a good side door window.

 

[bullfrog !]

With all these adds you gotta be careful when referring to the second picture! Lol!!!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

If your build is simple it won't be hard to add insulation later.
Back in the '80s we used magnets to hold blankets on the wall and ceiling of a Chevy van for ski trips. Remember it worked well.

 

[jasper]

I'm 69 inches tall. With insulation and paneling, my measurements and lying sideways in my Ford E-series showed room to spare. Yeah, right. After waking up due to my feet being restricted from relaxing due to a little scooting down from the pillow, I had to do something. At least I didn't have to cut out the side of the van and install an exterior pod like some I've seen. I don't want to talk about
how long before doing something about it.

 

[rruff]

1. Insulation is worthless by itself:
Without temperature regulation systems, insulation is just a stop gap from that heat getting in or out of your van. You'll delay it a couple hours, but you can't ever stop or reverse it without cooling/heating. I do not plan on having an AC unit but I will have a small space heater.

It's not worthless... but there are downsides for sure. If your rig is well insulated and decently sealed it can help a good amount. I did tests on mine and the heat loss rate was <15W/F... that's 15W for each degree of difference between interior and exterior temperature, tracked for several days. If I'd insulated the windows it probably would have been ~10W/F. A human at rest will dissipate about 100W, so just one person doing nothing can warm it up 10F. I also looked at different heating methods, and bulk propane looks the best. A little single lantern can run at 300W and cost less than 5 cents an hour to run. In that case you are looking at a 40F temperature rise, and your propane will last a long time (~20 hrs/lb). Big lanterns and Buddy heaters are much stronger and go through a more fuel, but if you are uninsulated you'll need that to get the same effect.

When it's both sunny and hot, the insulation helps as well. Shade and white paint are ways to mitigate that too if you can.

I've always built campers with foam core and very thin ply skins, but I think a simple way to do a van would be to stuff havelock wool in the holes, and make some panels to put on the inside walls. 1/2" XPS foam with a PMF or very thin ply covering on one side would help a lot I think. I've always mostly supported cabinets on the floor. Up higher I only have sling/hammock style things to hold light stuff like clothes, blankets, pillows, etc.

What is the meaning of life?

None but what you make it....

 

[jacqueg]

I'm 69 inches tall. With insulation and paneling, my measurements and lying sideways in my Ford E-series showed room to spare. Yeah, right. After waking up due to my feet being restricted from relaxing due to a little scooting down from the pillow, I had to do something. At least I didn't have to cut out the side of the van and install an exterior pod like some I've seen. I don't want to talk about
how long before doing something about it.

I'm 63 inches tall. And I fit just about right, stretched out and given the pillows I use. My feet come within about 4 inches of the van wall (remember, I have no insulation and paneling). I wouldn't want to be much taller or, conversely, to have the walls take up more room.

 

[BelgianPup]

I've read and heard about insulated vs non-insulated. I went from an insulated to a bare-nekkid interior in cooler weather, and I stopped all plans for everything else until I got it insulated.

There can be a big difference between what people really know, and what they think they know. Everyone has to figure it out themselves: storage or comfort?

 

[jacqueg]

I've read and heard about insulated vs non-insulated. I went from an insulated to a bare-nekkid interior in cooler weather, and I stopped all plans for everything else until I got it insulated.

There can be a big difference between what people really know, and what they think they know. Everyone has to figure it out themselves: storage or comfort?

I see no reason to choose between storage and comfort - I have both!

 

[islanderxx]

The van I'm in now was converted by the guy who sold it to me. As such it sucks for my use case. This year I am going to commit to vanlife more and plan my own build.


The idea of no insulation started as a thought experiment to try and avoid the hassle and cost of installing insulation and the frame/walls to contain it. Now, I have convinced myself it may be the best option. Personal reasons i think insulation is dumb FOR ME AND MY BUILD:

1. Insulation is worthless by itself:
Without temperature regulation systems, insulation is just a stop gap from that heat getting in or out of your van. You'll delay it a couple hours, but you can't ever stop or reverse it without cooling/heating. I do not plan on having an AC unit but I will have a small space heater.

2. I'm lazy and cheap:
Couple hundred for the insulation, couple hundred for the wood (and that's probably being generous), possible tool rental costs, dozens of hours of research/work, huge risk of massively ducking it up.

3. Insulation (especially when done by a complete noob) can ruin a build:
the dreaded moisture causing all sorts of issues and bulldung. a problem that is far more diagnosable, treatable, and preventable without insulation. how are you going to know when moisture begins to build up in your walls? you wont. how are you going to treat it? you wont because you dont even know if it is happening. Mold, insect infestations, and rust are all much more likely because of the moisture trapped inside your walls. yes, i know about vapor barriers

4. I am a grungy snowbird:
I do not mind the bare wall look, I have lived in much worse. I could use magnets and posters to solve that issue anyways.
i don't experience bad enough cold often enough. I have only experienced it once on a bud run to denver during winter and that was by choice for toots and chuckles because i knew my current rig could handle it.
i get in and out of my van frequently as I am usually in a campground for the toilet, shower, and close vicinity to civilization.
i have my two fan vents open frequently because still air sucks.
i enjoy the sounds of my surroundings (most of the time).
those couple extra inches will help alleviate the issue of my fat butt and clumsy legs

Some questions i also need help with:
Would this make it easier or more difficult to install shelves and other types of storage?
Does the reasoning above make sense? What holes does it have or what information am I missing?
What is the meaning of life?
Would I still have the option of ceiling/wall-mounted cabinents or fixtures?

thanks for your input. hope you have a good day

1. Insulation is worthless by itself: Not really; with R5 insulation, the cost of heating will be 5 times less than with no insulation. When you slow down thermal transmittance, your heater will work less to maintain the desired temperature.

 

[rruff]

Insulation is worthless by itself: Not really; with R5 insulation, the cost of heating will be 5 times less than with no insulation.

The required ventilation cuts into that 5x benefit considerably.

 

[CosmickGold]

I read that vapor barriers can become bad news in a van, because the small amount of water that still gets into them, then cannot get out! I insulated with Havelock Wool, because -- among several great features -- it also breathes freely, and absorbs moisture when humidity is above 60 percent, releasing it back into the air when below 60%. Whether or not your insulation can interfere with shelves and cabinets depends on how you install it; I have no problem at all.

Trying to heat your van without insulation is a waste of time. One lady here reported running her diesel heater full blast, and yet the shell over her pickup remained freezing cold, because cold came through those metal walls faster than her furnace could put out heat to combat it. Natalie in her video "Vanlife Isn't What I Expected" has a scene where she's shivering in front of her space heater and wrongly claims "It's not working". She then got sick from the cold and had to rent a motel room for a few days to get well.

I tried an experiment where I kept my van at 70 degrees in cold weather, and even with my wool insulation everywhere, the 5-gallon propane bottle was empty in three days! (That's largely because a furnace has to constantly heat outside air for the flame to breathe, before that heated air can in turn heat the indoor air of my van through a metal barrier.) Then I set the thermostat to 38 degrees (just to keep water from freezing); and amazingly, even after three years, that one 5-gallon propane tank has not quite gone empty yet. It's amazing, because the outdoor air was 18 degrees. To keep my body warm as I slept, I wrapped this tiny 12v electric blanket around my chest inside my jacket, which uses very little battery power to keep me toasty warm.

 

[jacqueg]

I tried an experiment where I kept my van at 70 degrees in cold weather, and even with my wool insulation everywhere, the 5-gallon propane bottle was empty in three days! (That's largely because a furnace has to constantly heat outside air for the flame to breathe, before that heated air can in turn heat the indoor air of my van through a metal barrier.) Then I set the thermostat to 38 degrees (just to keep water from freezing); and amazingly, even after three years, that one 5-gallon propane tank has not quite gone empty yet. It's amazing, because the outdoor air was 18 degrees. To keep my body warm as I slept, I wrapped this tiny 12v electric blanket around my chest inside my jacket, which uses very little battery power to keep me toasty warm.

Yup. Always easier, cheaper, and more reliable to heat yourself rather than the air around you. Especially if that air is at all connected to the great out-of-doors.

 

[rruff]

Absolutely! Just insulate and heat your damn body... if necessary... and you want to avoid the annoyance of fueling furnaces of various types, and dealing with the liquid fuels.

Merry Christmas, everybody!