Minivan camper electrical system will this plan work?

[evoscot]

Feel free to point out anything I have wrong here.  This is the equipment I have picked out to run my van and I could really use some feed back.

I am building a camper from a 2006 Chrysler Town & Country.  I'm trying to keep all my electrics 12volt.  When I plug into shore power I only want to power up a battery charger to keep ahead of what I am draining from the RV batteries.  I have picked out a http://www.cloreautomotive.com/sku.php?id=528 smart charger permanently mounted in the van.

I only plan on being off grid 3 days at a time.  I will either hit a campground every third day while vacationing to plug in, or camping weekends riding dirt bike 3 days max.

I will be running a Norcold NRF 30 refrigerator.  Their website claims 4.3 amp draw at 12v.  Lets call it running 8 hours a day. http://www.thetford.com/product/nrf-30/

I'm going to have a 12v TV with dvd built in.  I haven't picked one out yet.  I have room for about 15 - 17 inch.  Open to good suggestions.  Drawing power 6 hours a day max when the car engine is not running.

I will have a Nintendo Wii U powered by a Maxplay.  It is a power source to run Wii U in your car.  I think it is a DC step down box to go from 12 volt to 5.7 but I'm not sure.  Running the same 6 hours as the tv.
https://www.amazon.com/Maxbuy-MaxPl...&qid=1476412694&sr=8-4&keywords=wii+u+maxplay

Keeping a cel phone charged

Keeping an ipad charged

Keeping a wifi hot spot charged

I have a 400w/800w max modified sine wave inverter for occasional use.  I don't know what I would ever power with it but I do have one.  Got it as a secret santa gift at xmas party couple years back.

I have room for 2 group 31 batteries.  I want to buy Deka batteries because that's what we have at work and I can get a discount on them.  They are not rated by amp hour.  They say 225 min @ 23 amps, 185 min @ 25 amps, 20 hr cap 105.  I don't know how to interpret this into amp hours.  The battery I have in mind is the DC31DT found in this chart: http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Marine-Master-Spec-Sheet-0194.pdf

I am going to hook my RV batteries in parallel.  Do I even need 2 batteries?

I am going to hook the battery bank up to my alternator through a simple disconnect switch.  I don't want to stress the alternator out if I have 2 run down batteries in the back and burn out my alternator in the process.  I only want the to charge the RV batteries with the alternator when I am rolling down the road and it's kicking out some power.  I am not worried about accidentally leaving the car battery hooked to the RV batteries and running it dead.  I trust myself more than I do solenoids and diodes  in the available battery isolaters I have found.

I want to run this Renogy solar controller, mostly because it is flush mount and it has its own meter.  It has battery temp and voltage sensors.  I have read several of the MPPT vs PWM posts.  From what I have gathered the PMW works well with a smaller system.
https://www.renogy.com/renogy-adventurer-30a-pwm-flush-mount-charge-controller-w-lcd-display/

I am going to start with a Renogy 100 watt Eclipse solar panel.  Mostly because the dimensions work well with my roof rack, but also because they are a little better panel.  I have no objection to adding a second or third panel like this if I am going to need it.
https://www.renogy.com/renogy-eclipse-100-watt-12-volt-monocrystalline-solar-panel/

Someday I might add a fantastic or maxxair roof vent fan.

Give me your worst.  Am I out in right field?  Seriously Is this combo a good idea?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I have room for 2 group 31 batteries.  I want to buy Deka batteries because that's what we have at work and I can get a discount on them.  They are not rated by amp hour.  They say 225 min @ 23 amps, 185 min @ 25 amps, 20 hr cap 105.  I don't know how to interpret this into amp hours.  The battery I have in mind is the DC31DT found in this chart: http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Marine-Master-Spec-Sheet-0194.pdf

Actually, they DO give you the amp hours, they just really, really hide the info.  It's the "20 hour rating" and it's 105 ah.  So two of them wired in parallel are 210 amp hours, and using the 50% rule, you have 105 amp hours of actual, usable capacity.  Pull more than that out of the batteries, and you will seriously degrade their lifespan.

The rule of thumb is to have 1 watt of solar panel for every amp hour of battery capacity.  So you would want two 100 watt solar panels at a minimum.  If this were my rig, and I was full timing for weeks at a time, I would want 3 panels.  But for what you are describing, where you will plugging in to the grid and recharging every three days, two would be fine. 

I would suggest that you buy a solar charge controller big enough to handle three panels, if things change and you decide to add another panel down the road.  Also, make sure you download any battery user manuals Deka has, and see what the maximum charging voltage is.  Ideally, you want a charge controller that can be programmed to provide that max voltage.  AGM batteries all seem to be happier when recharged at their max.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

OK, the Deka manual is here:

http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf

Looks like 14.4 volts will work well for you.  Also check out the duty cycle vs lifespan chart.  Running the batteries down by 50% will give you 375 cycles, but running them down to only 75% will give you over 900.

 

[skyl4rk]

It will work but you would be better off with 4 batteries and 200W of solar.

 

[ccbreder]

Those are marine wet cell batteries, not AGM. East Penn makes very good batteries. I use and recommend golf cart batteries for use as deep cycle. But marine will work for light use.
Renogy has good products and seem to have excellent customer service. I would not use the meter to monitor the battery condition. I would leave room for more battery as your use increases you will have to find a place to mount them.

 

[Trebor English]

Two golf cart batteries are similar in size to two group 31 batteries and similar in Amp hour capacity. They are likely to give many more deep cycles and actually deliver many amp hours.

 

[Trebor English]

My Windstar roof is full with one 40 x 26 solar panel and a Maxx fan. A second panel could fit turned sideways and sticking out on the sides. I don't have a fridge. I think only one 100 watt panel would not be enough to run a fridge at 32 amp hours per day. Battery to panel ratio doesn't matter if consumption is greater than generation.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Those are marine wet cell batteries, not AGM.

You're right.  I saw an asterick on the chart that mentioned "glass mat separators" and mis-interpreted that.

I really shouldn't post first thing in the morning before I've had my coffee . . .

 

[Trebor English]

The 10 amp charger might be a disappointment. If you need to put 100 amp hours into a battery it will take a long time starting at 10 amps. At that rate it may not ever get to 14.8 volts.
The last "smart" charger I used had to be told flooded/gel/agm every time it got plugged in to ac power. Otherwise it just sat there not charging.

 

[Almost There]

That 10 amp charger will DEFINITELY  be a disappointment.

Here's some info from Deka (page 2 of the pdf) that shows charging times for Class 31 batteries with various charge rates and battery depletion rates.

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.co...eavy-Duty-AGM-Guide-Technical-Update-1401.pdf

Once you've finally settled on batteries, then choose the charger to go with them. There are much better chargers than the one you listed.

I have a smart charger (Schumacher brand) and it's really a very stupid charger. I have to watch it constantly!

 

[ccbreder]

I really shouldn't post first thing in the morning before I've had my coffee . . .

Some mornings I can't find the coffee pot before I'v had my coffee.

I missed about your charger. I have a ProMariner 3 stage smart charger. It is the 40 amp version. When I can't plug to grid, it runs on my 2000i generator on econ-mode. It charges my 690 ah bank from 75% in about 3 hours.

 

[SternWake]

That Norcold chest fridge should not draw more than 24AH per 24 hours in 75f ambients with minimal door openings


If you do not already own it, consider that its sawafuju swing compressor is significantly louder than a Danfoss/secop compressor sold in some other units like the truckfridge tf49. 

The ciggy plug/receptacle on portable fridges is a known weak point which will at some point fail and cause a curse storm, and perhaps a shitstorm if you eat spoiled food because of it.  Cut off the plug, hardwire to fuse block, curse the inventor of ciggy plug receptacle.

Make sure the vents on the fridge's cooling units are not obstructed in any way and cant easily be obstructed by the random bit of stray clothing.

The sawafiji's seem to vary in volume, with some being louder than others. Luck of the draw. I've had both and the Danfoss is much quieter, and more efficient, but perhaps less durable if beaten up in a high vibration/ physical stress environment

Anybody considering 2 flooded group31 batteries in parallel would be much better off with 2 gc-2 batteries in series with very rare exceptions.  The group 31 battery was designed as a starting battery for maximum CCA.  It does not translate well into a hybrid/ dual purpose battery  that is deeply cycled, and seems to require much more time held at absorption voltages to reach full charge.  Without this extra time they sulfate quickly and lose capacity quickly.

All factors being equal, The GC-2 golf cart battery will last at least 2x as many deep cycles as it is an Authentic deep cycle battery, not a hybrid.  Very few 12v wet/flooded batteries are built as a true deep cycle battery. Ignore the sticker proudly proclaiming deep cycle on any 12v flooded battery except the trojan t-1275.

The Clore 10 amp charger will not be sufficient, FOr a pair of gc-2, you want at least 25 amps and upto 70 would be ok.  It might not stand up well to repeatedly bringing 220 AH pf capacity from 50% to 100%.  It is a garage charger designed for the occassional dead battery, not a regularly deep cycled larger capacity of battery.

It will likely also get confused if it is charging while you are still using DC loads, and shut off flashing an error code.  if you already own it then just use it till it quits then upgrade

Plan on at least 200 watts of solar.  Your ability to plug in every few days makes a big difference as to how much solar you 'need', but more is always better.  The batteries will be happier and longer lived for it.  Plugging in to recharge  every 3rd day you could likely get away with 100 watts.  Without that ability the solar wattage to capacity ratio needs to go way up.  In 50% depletion levels to get to 100% on a good day by sundown, at least the 2 watts per 1Ah of capcity is required and likely 3 to 1 if significant loads are on the system during daylight hours too. 

I also choose to decide when the alternator charges the house battery via a large manual switch.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/6007/m-Series_Mini_Selector_Battery_Switch_-_Red

They have simple on and off ones or 1/2/both /Off versions.  Do not turn to "off" with engine running if using this latter 1/2/both off.

As to how hot the alternator gets when asked to charge well depleted batteries, well many factors some into play and it is highly platform specific.  I've found at highway speeds even maxed out, the alternator is kept significantly cooler than sub 25mph driving, and Idling spikes its temperatures quickly.  From a cold start it takes a bit before climbing above 160F, but if the engine is already hot, and the alternator is asked for everything then it will quickly approach 200f.
220F is the tipping point.  So I'd recommend not idling for long with a cold engine and not idling at all with a hot engine when the batteries are depleted.  Also around town sub 25mph could also have the alternator heating up beyond happy levels.

It might not even be a factor in a specific vehicle.  Very platform specific and one can only know for sure by knowing hot hot the thing actually gets.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The Original Poster has a build thread here:

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-2006-Town-Country-build

It shows he's already bought the two Deka 31s and the Norcold fridge . . .

 

[Almost There]

It will likely also get confused if it is charging while you are still using DC loads, and shut off flashing an error code.  if you already own it then just use it till it quits then upgrade
 

And you just answered by accident something that had been annoying me since last spring.

Every 'smart charger' I've had (returned 2 because of this problem) has randomly (1 hour, 1 1/2 hours, 3 hours etc) thrown an error code and quit charging. Unplug it, plug it back in and reset the battery type and away it goes again, picking up where it left off.

Here I thought it was a design flaw in the Schumacher chargers....

Of course there's a load on it, the fridge stays plugged in. I don't quit using power just because I'm charging the batteries..well duh!!

 

[evoscot]

The Original Poster has a build thread here:

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-2006-Town-Country-build

It shows he's already bought the two Deka 31s and the Norcold fridge . . .

I ordered the Norcold fridge from amazon deals wharehouse who I mistakenly thought was amazon.   They are a third party seller and my fridge hasn't even left their place yet according to fedex.  i called amazon to complain and they told me I could expect it on tuesday or file it as lost and get a refund right now.  I was due at my house about an hour ago according to what amazon prime told me.

I did not purchase the batteries yet.  I work at an auto parts store and I brought a set outside and put them in my van to see if they would fit.  I can still change my mind on them.  I priced out a set of Deka GC15 golf cart batteries today and I can buy them for only $2.00 more than what the group 31's would cost me so if I can make them fit I will use them instead.

Assuming I switch to the golf cart batteries what would be a good charger to use on them.

 

[evoscot]

That Norcold chest fridge should not draw more than 24AH per 24 hours in 75f ambients with minimal door openings.

I live in Minnesota so it doesn't get super hot here in the summer


If you do not already own it, consider that its sawafuju swing compressor is significantly louder than a Danfoss/secop compressor sold in some other units like the truckfridge tf49. 

I ordered it but shipping problems will allow me to back out if I want to.  I primarily ordered it because i like the direction the door opens and the size of it fits where i want to put it.  I have 16.5" tall x 17 ish" deep and 24" for width to work with my plan.  The Dometic CF25 is to tall, the CF35 or the CFX35 are to long to use on a slide out with my rear set up in the sitting position so I would have to rock the seat into tailgate mode or into the floor to get into the fridge.  Do able but less than ideal.  The CF 18 would fit fine but it seems so small.  The CFX 28 might be a little to long.  I'd have to modify my cabinet to get the height to work but I'm kinda mad at the whole just not shipping the fridge I bought and paid for already so I might tell amazon warehouse deals to get bent and spend my money elsewhere.

The ciggy plug/receptacle on portable fridges is a known weak point which will at some point fail and cause a curse storm, and perhaps a shitstorm if you eat spoiled food because of it.  Cut off the plug, hardwire to fuse block, curse the inventor of ciggy plug receptacle.

I don't trust them either.  It will be removed on installation

Make sure the vents on the fridge's cooling units are not obstructed in any way and cant easily be obstructed by the random bit of stray clothing.

The sawafiji's seem to vary in volume, with some being louder than others. Luck of the draw. I've had both and the Danfoss is much quieter, and more efficient, but perhaps less durable if beaten up in a high vibration/ physical stress environment

Anybody considering 2 flooded group31 batteries in parallel would be much better off with 2 gc-2 batteries in series with very rare exceptions.  The group 31 battery was designed as a starting battery for maximum CCA.  It does not translate well into a hybrid/ dual purpose battery  that is deeply cycled, and seems to require much more time held at absorption voltages to reach full charge.  Without this extra time they sulfate quickly and lose capacity quickly.

All factors being equal, The GC-2 golf cart battery will last at least 2x as many deep cycles as it is an Authentic deep cycle battery, not a hybrid.  Very few 12v wet/flooded batteries are built as a true deep cycle battery. Ignore the sticker proudly proclaiming deep cycle on any 12v flooded battery except the trojan t-1275.

The Clore 10 amp charger will not be sufficient, FOr a pair of gc-2, you want at least 25 amps and upto 70 would be ok.  It might not stand up well to repeatedly bringing 220 AH pf capacity from 50% to 100%.  It is a garage charger designed for the occassional dead battery, not a regularly deep cycled larger capacity of battery.

Can you recommend a charger for 2 GC15 Deka batteries?  I haven't bought the group 31's yet.  they were just in my van for a photo op and to see how they fit

It will likely also get confused if it is charging while you are still using DC loads, and shut off flashing an error code.  if you already own it then just use it till it quits then upgrade

Plan on at least 200 watts of solar.  Your ability to plug in every few days makes a big difference as to how much solar you 'need', but more is always better.  The batteries will be happier and longer lived for it.  Plugging in to recharge  every 3rd day you could likely get away with 100 watts.  Without that ability the solar wattage to capacity ratio needs to go way up.  In 50% depletion levels to get to 100% on a good day by sundown, at least the 2 watts per 1Ah of capcity is required and likely 3 to 1 if significant loads are on the system during daylight hours too. 

I also choose to decide when the alternator charges the house battery via a large manual switch.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/6007/m-Series_Mini_Selector_Battery_Switch_-_Red

They have simple on and off ones or 1/2/both /Off versions.  Do not turn to "off" with engine running if using this latter 1/2/both off.

As to how hot the alternator gets when asked to charge well depleted batteries, well many factors some into play and it is highly platform specific.  I've found at highway speeds even maxed out, the alternator is kept significantly cooler than sub 25mph driving, and Idling spikes its temperatures quickly.  From a cold start it takes a bit before climbing above 160F, but if the engine is already hot, and the alternator is asked for everything then it will quickly approach 200f.
220F is the tipping point.  So I'd recommend not idling for long with a cold engine and not idling at all with a hot engine when the batteries are depleted.  Also around town sub 25mph could also have the alternator heating up beyond happy levels.

It might not even be a factor in a specific vehicle.  Very platform specific and one can only know for sure by knowing hot hot the thing actually gets.

 

[SternWake]

Assuming I switch to the golf cart batteries what would be a good charger to use on them.

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD-9245C-148-45-Amp-RV-ConverterCharger_p_610.html#.WAGcrOUrLUI

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Engineering-DLS30-Converter-Battery/dp/B00A0V5HPC

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Enginee...F8&qid=1476500753&sr=1-1&keywords=Iota+dls+45

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Enginee...d=1476500753&sr=1-1&keywords=Iota+dls+45&th=1

The progressive dynamics pd9245 is fully automatic, But it has a remote pendant/ umbilical device where one can force the unit to seek 3 different voltages. 


This is a great feature, especially when other charging sources have the batteries above 12.8v, but the batteries are less than fully charged.  In automatic mode it might see this voltage, think the battery is fully charged, and then only seek 13.2 or 13.8, when the batteries want 14.8v.  Much faster recharging at 14.8v.
All these are RV converters, meaning they can both power DC loads as a power supply,  And 3 stage battery charge without getting confused like a regular smart charger with alligator clips and a sexy plastic exterior and a bunch of lights.

That first PD link is to a special version which seeks 14.8v in boost/bulk stage/mode, instead of 14.4v.

One can find 14.4v versions elsewhere for less. 14.4 just takes longer.


 A pair of GC-2 can easily accept 70 amps so the PD9270 or PD9260 can also be utilized.

For a pair of gc-2s go no less than a 30 amp charger/converter.  The bigger amp chargers are good when one is powering Huge DC loads while charging batteries, or if one only has 2 or 3 hours to plug in and wants as much charging as possible.

If time is not a factor, the Iota 30 amp might save a few bucks.

 

[evoscot]

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD-9245C-148-45-Amp-RV-ConverterCharger_p_610.html#.WAGcrOUrLUI

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Engineering-DLS30-Converter-Battery/dp/B00A0V5HPC

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Enginee...F8&qid=1476500753&sr=1-1&keywords=Iota+dls+45

https://www.amazon.com/IOTA-Enginee...d=1476500753&sr=1-1&keywords=Iota+dls+45&th=1

The progressive dynamics pd9245 is fully automatic, But it has a remote pendant/ umbilical device where one can force the unit to seek 3 different voltages. 


This is a great feature, especially when other charging sources have the batteries above 12.8v, but the batteries are less than fully charged.
So ^^^^ if my solar has the batteries at say 12.9 this type of charger will go the extra mile to fully top them off?

 In automatic mode it might see this voltage, think the battery is fully charged, and then only seek 13.2 or 13.8, when the batteries want 14.8v.  Much faster recharging at 14.8v.
All these are RV converters, meaning they can both power DC loads as a power supply,  And 3 stage battery charge without getting confused like a regular smart charger with alligator clips and a sexy plastic exterior and a bunch of lights.
sexy grey plastic is why I picked the other one.  I'm painting my cabinet to match my interior

That first PD link is to a special version which seeks 14.8v in boost/bulk stage/mode, instead of 14.4v.

One can find 14.4v versions elsewhere for less. 14.4 just takes longer.


 A pair of GC-2 can easily accept 70 amps so the PD9270 or PD9260 can also be utilized.

For a pair of gc-2s go no less than a 30 amp charger/converter.  The bigger amp chargers are good when one is powering Huge DC loads while charging batteries, or if one only has 2 or 3 hours to plug in and wants as much charging as possible.
Are the Deka GC15 the same as what you call a GC2?

If time is not a factor, the Iota 30 amp might save a few bucks.
I'm the type of guy that will spend an extra $50 to get a tool that does the job better.

 

[evoscot]

Link to the Deka golf car battery specs:   http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Deka-Pro-Master-Golf-Car-Flyer-0248.pdf

 

[SternWake]

So ^^^^ if my solar has the batteries at say 12.9 this type of charger will go the extra mile to fully top them off?

The PD9245[/i] can be forced to seek 14.4/8 13.8 or 13.2 by pressing a button, overriding the automatic 3 stage feature.Once the button is pressed once, the charger will seek 14.4 or 14.8v( depending on model purchased) at full output.  If batteries are depleted they will accept everything the charger can make until the voltage reaches 14.x.

Press and hold button for it to seek only 13.6v.  The charger will only make as much amperage as required to hold 13.6.  Press and hold button for longer to force it to float mode, 13.2.  Only do this when you know for a fact batteries are fully charged and need no time at higher voltages

The Iota chargers, I am not sure of their exact charge algorithm, some say they will always seek 14.8v initially, others say this is not true. IDK

With regular chargers, to  force the charger to seek 14.4 or 14.8v, at  maximum output, one might need to trick the charging source to seeking maximum output

This is done by loading the batteries until voltage drops below 12.6v or so, then starting/restarting the charging source.

Much easier to press a button.   The PD series of converter allows a finer level of control, just ignore their marketing regarding the 'equalizing' stage

This EQ stage, on their chargers, is every 16 hours, when the Unit has been floating at 13.2 for 16 hours, it bumps voltage upto 14.4v again, for 15 minutes.  this causes gassing/ bubbling, which mixes the electrolyte and keeps it from stratifying.  When stratified the denser acid sinks to the bottom and eats the plates a bit faster.[/font][/size][/color]



A true "Equalization" charge is a forced overcharge bringing the battery to as high as 16.2 volts ( minimum 15.5v) while one monitors specific gravity of each cell and stops the 16.2v when all cells are 1.275 or higher, or the battery starts heating quickly, or the amperage required to hold 16.2 starts increasing instead of decreasing.

these EQ charges only should be initiated after a normal 'full' recharge and only when the battery capacity has noticeably decreased.

EQ charging generally requires specific equipment to accomplish, and is the subject of another thread.

If you like some manual control, the PD9245 PD9260 and PD9270 will allow you that control.

I know they offer the 45 and 60 amp models in the 14.8v versions. I would personally choose these over the standard 14.4 for the Deka GC-15.  If one's batteries were always warm then 14.4v versions would be less abusive.

Not sure Why deka calls their Golf cart battery a gc15.  Gc-2 is kind of the standard, but Trojan calls their GC-2 a T-105.

Most all 6v golf cart batteries  are all very similar in size and weight and capacity and performance.

I'd rate the flooded GC-2s by Rolls Surrette, Trojan, USbattery, Crown, and Deka in that order.

The GC-2s sold by Sams or Costco might be made by Johnson Controls and labelled interstate at costco, and in my opinion these are the least desirable GC-2. JC is more a starting battery manufacturer IMO.

They will still easily out cycle an equal capacity of group 31s though



Much is made of the voltmeter regarding battery charging.

But voltage alone tells only part of the story. A more telling meter is the Ammeter.

HOw many amps are flowing into the battery at such and such a voltage is much more telling and enlightening for determining state of charge.  If the batteries are accepting a lot of amps, the batteries are nowhere near full, whatever the voltage reading.
A person with only a voltmeter might see 14.4 and declare the batteries fully charged, but without seeing whether 0.5 amps was flowing, or 40 amps was flowing they are essentially blind.