Inverter Size?

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This video is one reason for even having an inverter. This guy claims this 110v fridge runs on 30 watts per hour. I too find this pretty amazing.
30 watt per hour fridge
I was hoping one of you smart guys (SternWake) would watch this and give me your input about it.
 
an average of 30 watts per hr will depend on usage/load and surrounding ambient temperature
 
When you plug the dometic into 112 volt Ac, the converter inside the fridge converts the 112 v AC to 12 v DC. Loss due to conversion, means more watts from AC than fridge needs from that DC. Your inverter changes 12 v DC to 112 v AC with another loss means more watts from the battery than produced by inverter. Loss, Loss, there is never enough loss. Are you using nearly twice the amps from your battery by double converting?
You fuse your inverter. Why not make a fused connection for your fridge? Help save your battery.
Now, if you are camping in your driveway plug into the patio plug. The grid will hardly notice.


where to store your generator. http://vantrekker.com/the-van/
 
I'm guessing the question is for me? If so, whatever loss or inefficiency is outweighed by the need to avoid replacing a burnt fuse. I can't stand replacing burnt fuses. Drives me nuts. So far the method I'm using seems to be working okay. In any case, I barely use my fridge for more than 1 hour per week on average, so I don't think it makes any difference either way. The reason I use my fridge so little is because I don't cook. I don't cook anything. Period. I can barely cook (boil) water. So I don't need a fridge to keep eggs or milk cold, for example. I only need a fridge to keep my drinks cold, as I like to drink orange juice. Sometimes I will keep fruits and cheese cold for a few hours that I got from Trader Joes, but will be consumed that same day. I will also throw bananas in the fridge to keep from frying in the heat of the vehicle on a warm day. Again, I realize others will use a fridge more than me especially if they are full time boondocking in the wilderness/boonies/middle-of-nowhere. But for my urban lifestyle and eating out all the time, I barely use the fridge. Yes, I have tried plugging my Dometic fridge via the 12 volt adapter cord, and it works well too. But as mentioned, I don't want to risk burning out a 12 volt fuse especially because the fridge can take up a bit of power while I have other items plugged in simultaneously.
 
That 30W average load adds up to 48A/h over 24 hrs.. which is quite a lot of juice. Gotta factor in inefficiencies, when it comes to a mobile lifestyle (inverter losses, charging losses for batteries), which could bump that average up significantly. Contrast that to my Engel cooler, which would average out to less than than 1/3 of that number (probably lower), at -3 deg/C interior temps. Since it's running off 12v there is no inverter power loss to factor in either. ..Willy.
 
caseyc said:
I'm guessing the question is for me? If so, whatever loss or inefficiency is outweighed by the need to avoid replacing a burnt fuse. I can't stand replacing burnt fuses.

Hi Caseyc,

If you are blowing fuses then you are overloading your wiring, if the fuses are correct for the wiring. Using the inverter probably (and the electrical brain trust can verify and explain) is moving that overload to another path. Still an overload for your system.

Blowing fuses is not something that happens just to be annoying. It indicates an issue with the electrical circuit.

My 0.02 for the day.
-Wayne
 
A member here, Daizar, got that fridge. He has a thread on it somewhere in this forum.

While it appears to be one of the more efficient 120vac dorm fridges available, it still uses a bunch of battery power, about twice what a 12v compressor fridge would use. Yes the Kenmore is significantly cheaper than any 12v fridge available. I get it, and I'll refrain from my usual rant of how trying to be initially frugal costs more in the long run.

With this fridge I would be very interested in how much it actually draws in those first few seconds when the compressor kicks on (start up surge), and how much it consumes after it kicks on (running current), and how often it runs each hour( duty cycle).

If this 30 watts per hour average consumption is accurate, and I'm not really believing this, then it is pretty good, for that size of a fridge, but as Lucky Mike pointed out there are lots of variables that need to be accounted for, and that video addresses none of them, so I have no confidence in his claims, as his use of terminology regarding electrical consumption leads me to believe he understands very little about it, yet the video is comes off as a 'look how smart I am!, do what I did!' pat on the back. Behavior that we humans are all too prone to exhibit

Watt hours is a good measure of electrical consumption as it takes into account changing voltages compared to the more ubiquitous amp hours.

My 12v fridge is only 1.8 cubic feet, so not really comparable to that larger Kenmore, and it draws right around 30 watts when it is running, but it runs only about 20 minutes out of the hour or less, so it consumes about 10 watt hours average. I doubt that 30 watt U tube claim takes into account the ~15% losses of the inverter either.


CaseyC, I suspect your fridge's 12 power cord or the ciggy plug itself is damaged. It should not be blowing fuses. Danfoss wants their compressor fused at 15 amps and wiring no thinner than 12awg between it and the battery, and that is a relatively short length of no more than 8 feet total.
http://www.ra.danfoss.com/Technical...f_electronic_unit_ac-dc_04-2009_ei100g402.pdf

I know waeco provided the fridge with the ciggy plug cord for 12v operation, but this is doing a disservice to the instructions of the compressor maker. If a manufacturer of a product says you need 12 awg wire and a 15 amp fuse at no more than 8 feet and use minimal connections, then another manufacturer uses that product, inside their product, then provides 8 feet of undersized wiring and a connector with one of the worst reputations for voltage drop and unreliability for a power cord, one must Ask why.

Marketing. how many people would buy a portable fridge if it required that one have the skills to run power directly to the battery.

Also, with the 12 awg recommendation, and the Ciggy plug, most ciggy plug receptacles are underwired from the factory. They have too thin a wire over too many connections before the wiring even gets to the receptacle. So include this undersized wiring with the undersized wiring on the Fridge side of the equation and the fridge is barely receiving enough voltage to operate properly, and once the battery get a little low, well the Danfoss compressor will try and kick on, but then quit, and then the fan will just run for a few minutes.

On other forums with 12v fridges there are many threads started by those whose fridge does not last the whole night, and in most every case the solution is cutting off the ciggy plug and using a different connector and better thicker wiring directly to( and fused at) the battery.

Caseyc, I remember when you had the auxiliary battery and 12v plugs installed, and the massive sum they charged you to do it. I got the impression then they really had little idea what they were doing, and if the fridges 12v power cord is not damaged then the problem lies in the wiring that they did. Likely it is undersized.

Also your battery is Not going to be useful for much longer. If you are living on the edge of the low voltage alarm of the inverter, that poor battery is just gasping for a breath and your keeping it submerged. Expect failure pretty soon. Even if you were to adopt a proper charging regimen at this point the battery is severely capacity compromised.

You've indicated before you have a good income, but I think these places you have been getting service done have been taking advantage of you, and doing substandard work. I think you need to find a new place who will not take advantage of you to do the work you cannot do yourself, and do it correctly. I think they see you coming and as a walking dollar sign.

I really don't mean this to be as rude as it is going to sound, but if you have to go to a Ford dealer to have a fuse changed, you should not be giving electrical advice. The van's owner manual has to show how this is done. It is extremely and overwhelmingly basic.

I've repeated this many times on this forum, buy the Standard ubiquitous 12v power plug, the ciggy plug and receptacle, while convenient, is an extremely poor electrical connection that causes lots of issues. The more current it is asked to pass, the more likely it will fail.

Any 12v device with a ciggy plug which becomes inoperable, there is a 90% chance or greater the plug or receptacle itself has failed.

here is a higher quality standard 12v receptacle and plug, but I'd still not recommend them for anything more than about 100 watts:

http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Blue-Sy...keywords=Blue+Sea+Systems+12v+socket+and+plug

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Thank you, that's excellent advice. But I'm the same guy who can't even do an oil change or transmission fluid change by himself. :D:cool:

By the way, the last time I took my vehicle to a Ford dealer to have them change a burnt fuse (connected to the primary battery), the tech guy gasped! He saw all the many cords and adapters running below the dashboard and asked what they are all for. It actually took them awhile to figure out how and where to replace the fuse because of all the additional stuff everywhere.

Looking under the hood at the engine, there's even a bunch more cables and accessories that make any mechanic wonder why. :p
 
I bet a tech unfamiliar with my system would also be confused when taking a glance at my electrical wall. This is where labelling each circuit would cause a sigh of relief.

Following individual wires to figure out where they come from and where they go, is no fun.

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SternWake said:
I bet a tech unfamiliar with my system would also be confused when taking a glance at my electrical wall.
No kidding! Well, I think I see a Wagen 400 watt inverter in there with at least three switching devices? Nice automotive fuse block as well.
Are you running solely off of the 400 watt inverter for your 110v devices? Did you get a chance to look at the video above showing the 30 watt per hour fridge? I wonder if that one has 12v internals?
 
Yes that Wagan 400 watt is more than enough for anything 110v I expect to power anytime soon. I do have my 800 watt coleman MSW not too far away which I can hook up easily( though not reattach to my wall), but honestly have not fired it up since I got the PSW Wagan.

The Wagan is silent until it is in the 200 watt range and then still very quiet. the Coleman's fan is just annoyingly loud. The Wagan consumes 0.4 amps turned on powering nothing, the coleman about 0.9 amps. The coleman turned on, powering nothing for an hour, uses more electricity than my Vitrifrigo uses in an hour.

All inverters will vary in this regard, and some have Standby modes that use very little when nothing is asking for power from it, but these tend to negate any money saved by going to the Dorm fridge in the first place.

Those 3 switches are from left to right my Ignition/ Stock vehicle wiring, my House loads, and My solar, and allow me to choose specifically where current comes and goes.

I watched the 30 watt kenmore video and responded a few posts ago. I highly doubt its compressor is running off 12v. The Danfoss compressors are not actually 12vDC, but some split 3 phase system and a bunch of other technical mumbo jumbo which is still beyond my grasp of electricity. The Danfoss compressor controller takes 12v, or 120v( if it is the dual voltage controller, and manipulates it to what is needed to run the compressor most efficiently.

Here is that thread Specifically about that sears fridge:
https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Sears-mini-fridge-freezer-thoughts

I am not a fan of the inverter/dorm fridge route, but it certainly can be made to work.

I believe the lower initial cost will be eaten up by larger battery capacity required and recharging sources one must acquire to keep it going, and the lessened battery life if they are not regularly fully recharged properly.

Also in a Van, I believe that fridge to be too big. But that is opinion.


GSfish, good point. I usually point people toward stereo shops to have their larger battery cables made up. The only thing is, is that some of them are into aluminum cables as they look a bit Spiffier, but actually need to be significantly thicker to have the same voltage drop as pure copper.


I do not have very many 110 Vac appliances to power from my inverter. My soldering iron. A few powertools. Some of their battery chargers. Everything else is 12vdc ready to go. most Everything 12v ready to go can be powered by 110vac if I choose, but I don't choose, as I view the inverter as Evil. A necessary Evil perhaps, but I am certainly not going to use it when other options exist.
 
Is that Wagen pure sine wave, and if not, would you still use it to charge sensitive equipment such as smart phones & laptops?
SternWake said:
I watched the 30 watt kenmore video and responded a few posts ago.
OK, found your post. #28.
Thanks for that lengthy, well thought out reply, and the link to the conversation about the 30 watt per hour fridge.
 
Yes the Wagan is PSW, and I bought it mainly for charging my Li-ion Makita drill/driver batteries.

Laptops should have no problem on MSW. My older XP laptop slowed down once the laptop's battery was fully charged on MSW, and the power brick ran hotter.

You are much better off getting a DC to DC car adapter for the laptop.

And this is harsh, and repetitive, and I don't want to offend, but it will.

But only A wasteful fool uses Inverter to charge a USB charged smartphone.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ds=USb+car+charger&rh=i:aps,k:USb+car+charger
 
That is a good idea by gsfish. If i was closer i would be glad to help, but you would also have to be ready to learn something. Like how to change a fuse and check your oil. ;)
 
For your information, I know how to change my underwear. That's quite sufficient for my needs, hah! ;-)
 
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