Inflation, real income, and politics Moved from: Interesting Articles Relating to EVs

[user 22017]

Oh my... don't hope for that. Living through a total collapse would probably be worse than dying early.

Most of the 20th century and up to now has been the best time in history to be alive I think. Definitely greater freedom and safety and peace than ever before. The "being able to just breathe" that Carla mentioned is easily obtainable if you can get your mental/emotional house in order. Money is very rarely the problem. Unplugging from the constant media bombardment is a good first start.

It's far from perfect now, and the future doesn't look too bright, but I still appreciate it quite a lot.

What a massive generalization.

 

[RonDean]

Many generalizations are out there. It's hard to get nuance on a bumper sticker or a slogan. But I agree with rruff on some of this. Although money IS a problem. Some do not have enough and some people want too much. To the point that it's not about what they can buy but as a way to keep score. However, we also have a certain number of people actually hoping for a collapse. I'm all for strikes, boycotts, and whatever moves the needle forward - rather than backward. But a collapse? No, I would rather avoid that.

 

[mpruet]

I learned a long time ago that I was only worth (in money) what someone considered my value to be. I couldn’t just ‘demand’ a certain income. I had to be of more value to my employer than I would receive in pay. I had to be highly productive if I wanted to be highly paid.

I also learned a long time ago that if I wanted a good income, I had to be doing somthing which was of value to an employer. The same is true if I had been self employed. I had to produce something or provide some service that was considered of value to someone else.

I was trained as a musician and I was fairly good, but not good enough to be a top performer. At best I would have ended up as a church musician. Just because I was good at what I did didn’t matter if I couldn’t reach an audience. I realized early on, that I’d have to switch career paths. I had a choice - remain in a field that I enjoyed, but in which I was rapidly realizing that I would not be able to have a good income, or switch to some other field that I felt would would have an income growth based on my productivity. So I became a programmer/software engineer. And I was good at that and over time progressed significantly.

No one is stuck working in a field where they are barely receiving good income or are only seeing pay promotions only matching the inflation rate even though they are working harder and harder. If you’re not seeing the beneficial income increases while increasing your productivity, then it’s time for some evaluation. It could be that your productivity is not as good as you thought, or maybe the company you’re working for is not increasing revenue. Or maybe the area you’re working in is a dead-end. In any case it’s up to you to decide what you need to do to increase your income. You don’t HAVE to be poor.

People with money know how to put their money to work. They don’t just spend what income they have, nor do they just put the money under the mattress. By doing that, they end up with multiple income streams. And they compound their income streams so that the return on investment is rolled into more investments, and eventually those streams bring in more income than their original day-time job.

Now I’m going to hear from a bunch of folks stuff like “Oh, I just don’t make enough to put my money to work. I live paycheck to paycheck.” To that I say - no - you chose what you do with what money you get. And the bitter truth is that people chose to be without money.

I don’t belittle folks who have become really wealthy because they are provide either a product or service of value that folks need or want. Jeff Bezos produced a market place which is highly valuable - an online store that literally sells everything and you don’t even have to leave your house to buy. Sam Walton created a store that is one of the ‘go-to’ stores in the world. Bill Gates created a platform that just about everyone uses. Elon Musk has revolutionized the auto industry, implemented a system that has revolutionized internet access, and recently has implemented a system which lets crippled people walk. Steve Jobs developer a series of products that are used round the world. Mark Zukerberg developed a platform which allows personal interactions by millions of people world-wide. So should these people be criticized because they developed products and services that most people use and have benefited so many?

 

[Happy Camper]

Nobody cared about Jeff Bezos when he was working from his garage using a loan from his parents on a business idea.

Everyone cares about Jeff Bezos today because of his success and net worth. Now somehow he's responsible for everything people want to put on rich people.

If he had failed, would you care about him?

When I was a teenager I had given this a lot of thought. I expected that I would succeed and become reasonably wealthy at some point. Then I thought about the reality of politics and government.

The main things being that if you give government $10 to do something specific, $1 might make it to where you want it to go and to it's intended target. It's the single worst entity if you want your dollars spent efficiently.

I've always been if a mind to help those that need it. And I felt like my dollars would be better spent with my giving those $10 to an entity that would get $7 to the cause. It just finds a way to get the entire $10 where it needed to be myself.

And secondly I looked at the tax brackets and figured I would pay more for my success, which I was fine with. And yes, I might minimize my taxes just like anyone else. But I would have more to give to causes I wanted to address.

So the government would benefit from my success, but I would be able to make my choices where my giving helped. Because even if I only gave $3 instead of $10, the cause is still $2 ahead than if the government has that $10.

Life went in a different way than expected for various reasons. I gave made a lot of money at times. And I have been flat broke at times. But regardless of my personal finances and situation, I still agree with my teenaged self.

I hope that came out clearly. I got distracted a bit lol.

 

[rruff]

We haven't had a General Strike since the 1940s. That needs to happen before collapse or revolution. A general strike is when all workers refuse to work.

I think the first thing that needs to happen is that at least a sizeable minority believes this needs to happen.

 

[user 22017]

I don’t belittle folks who have become really wealthy because they are provide either a product or service of value that folks need or want.

Wages have stagnated since 1980, despite workers being more productive. So there goes your theories.

 

[user 22017]

Jeff Bezos produced a market place which is highly valuable - an online store that literally sells everything and you don’t even have to leave your house to buy. Sam Walton created a store that is one of the ‘go-to’ stores in the world. Bill Gates created a platform that just about everyone uses. Elon Musk has revolutionized the auto industry, implemented a system that has revolutionized internet access, and recently has implemented a system which lets crippled people walk. Steve Jobs developer a series of products that are used round the world. Mark Zukerberg developed a platform which allows personal interactions by millions of people world-wide. So should these people be criticized because they developed products and services that most people use and have benefited so many?

Most of those men broke the laws, or rules, in doing so. And hurt many businesses. Put many out of work. And sleazy politicians allowed them to get away with it.

Why is money the only measure for goodness, or success? So it's ok to be a total creep, grifter, liar, etc. , but if you are wealthy... thumbs up!! People look the other way to criminal activity if the person has wealth.

White collar crime = ok. Blue collar crime = thug & jail time.

I'm not blaming the unethical rich men. They are who they are. But we have laws and regulations for a reason.

 

[mpruet]

Wages have stagnated since 1980, despite workers being more productive. So there goes your theories.

Well, not really. I got a lot of raises since 1980.

 

[mpruet]

Most of those men broke the laws, or rules, in doing so. And hurt many businesses. Put many out of work. And sleazy politicians allowed them to get away with it.

Why is money the only measure for goodness, or success? So it's ok to be a total creep, grifter, liar, etc. , but if you are wealthy... thumbs up!! People look the other way to criminal activity if the person has wealth.

White collar crime = ok. Blue collar crime = thug & jail time.

I'm not blaming the unethical rich men. They are who they are. But we have laws and regulations for a reason.

Well, why don’t you list specific examples of how these men broke laws or rules. And if the successful men put many out of work, why is the unemployment rate lower than it’s been in years?

I don’t know of any laws or rules that any of these folks broke.

 

[user 22017]

Well, not really. I got a lot of raises since 1980.

You are one out of millions of people. If everyone switched to computer programming... well, imagine all the things in your life that would disappear. The services and foods and care you receive from others.

I don't know where to start when discussing this subject when you don't acknowledge systemic racism and barriers to housing and jobs. We know that racism and discrimination exists, so why pretend otherwise? You say you got paid based on your productivity, then how to you justify businesses paying women half what a man makes for the same job... same level of productivity. That figure is from the '70's. I think now it is $.77 for every dollar a man makes.

You are obviously a fan of capitalism, with all its faults. So, we will never see eye to eye.

 

[user 22017]

Well, why don’t you list specific examples of how these men broke laws or rules. And if the successful men put many out of work, why is the unemployment rate lower than it’s been in years?

I don’t know of any laws or rules that any of these folks broke.

Unemployment rates don't tell us anything about the kinds of jobs people are taking nor their wages.

I'll try to find examples, but off hand, undercutting prices of competitors (at a loss) in order to put them out of business. That was Amazon's strategy.

With Walmart they lied for years in their Made in America campaign. IIRC, it was 60 Minutes who exposed that lie. They were selling clothing that literally fell off of you as the seams unraveled. But by then, their competitors across the country were closing. K-Mart hung on for a while, but the local department stores closed. So they got caught in the 1990's, then lied again in 2013... rather , never stopped deceiving customers. This time with a pledge: https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/20/wal-mart-drops-made-in-usa-logo-us-ends-probe.html

Sometimes they aren't lies, they are just taking advantage of the corporate friendly loopholes our elected officials granted them. Like getting government funding for solar initiatives... here are some of Elon's top hits (from Rolling Stone):

The Big List of Elon Musk’s Hyperbole, Evasions, and Outright Lies​

The billionaire simply can't stop making **** up

Going to bed. To be continued.

 

[mpruet]

You are one out of millions of people. If everyone switched to computer programming... well, imagine all the things in your life that would disappear. The services and foods and care you receive from others.

It wouldn’t have been an issue. I became a programmer because at the time there were very few people in that field, and I saw an opportunity. If it had been crowded I would have chosen another field. This was in the mid-1970s.

I don't know where to start when discussing this subject when you don't acknowledge systemic racism and barriers to housing and jobs. We know that racism and discrimination exists, so why pretend otherwise? You say you got paid based on your productivity, then how to you justify businesses paying women half what a man makes for the same job... same level of productivity. That figure is from the '70's. I think now it is $.77 for every dollar a man makes.

You are obviously a fan of capitalism, with all its faults. So, we will never see eye to eye.

Don’t feed me the racism/sexist line. The vast majority of the managers that I had were women or non-white races. And when I got my first programming job, I could only be a one-year contractor. I couldn’t get employed as a regular employee. And I was told to my face “We can’t hire you because you are the wrong *** or color.” Yep I was told to my face that as a white male I couldn’t be hired - meaning I couldn’t get health insurance or be part of a pension plan. So don’t feed me the garbage about *** and race discrimination because I’ve personally experienced it.

 

[mpruet]

Unemployment rates don't tell us anything about the kinds of jobs people are taking nor their wages.

I'll try to find examples, but off hand, undercutting prices of competitors (at a loss) in order to put them out of business. That was Amazon's strategy.

Nonsense. First of all Amazon is not the producer of products. They are a reseller. They resell or just ship items produced by other companies. So they have to deal with how much it cost from the manufacture. If any company that had a similar market plan couldn’t compete because of price, then they were charging way too much to begin with and didn’t consider Amazon as a viable competitor.

No, Amazon’s business strategy was too take one market and gradually expand their business. They were initially only a book reseller. As they were profitable, they gradually expanded into other markets because their real niche was to make it very easy for any person to purchase an item online and have it delivered to them without having to leave their home. They were in the business of convenience.

The only company that I know of that got hurt by Amazon was Sears and that is because Sears totally ignored online purchasing, which is really ironic because Sears was so strong in the Catalogue business, and the catalogue was nothing more than the online business before the internet. Sears failed because they refused to adapt, not because of any price war.

With Walmart they lied for years in their Made in America campaign. IIRC, it was 60 Minutes who exposed that lie. They were selling clothing that literally fell off of you as the seams unraveled. But by then, their competitors across the country were closing. K-Mart hung on for a while, but the local department stores closed. So they got caught in the 1990's, then lied again in 2013... rather , never stopped deceiving customers. This time with a pledge: https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/20/wal-mart-drops-made-in-usa-logo-us-ends-probe.html

Local department stores were closing long before Walmart made their presence. Again I have first hand knowledge about that because my parents owned a local department store. Their customer base dried up because a K-Mart opened 30 miles from town.

As for quality merchandise from Walmart, I never had a piece of clothing that I bought from them to fall apart. Guess I just buy by quality, not price.

Sometimes they aren't lies, they are just taking advantage of the corporate friendly loopholes our elected officials granted them. Like getting government funding for solar initiatives... here are some of Elon's top hits (from Rolling Stone):

The Big List of Elon Musk’s Hyperbole, Evasions, and Outright Lies​

The billionaire simply can't stop making **** up

Are you trying to tell me that Tesla, PayPal, SpaceX, and Starlink are fabricated made up stories?

I guess you just don’t understand how the creative mind works. They don’t focus on details, but focus mainly on “How cool it would be if we could do ____”

Going to bed. To be continued.

 

[mpruet]

You are one out of millions of people. If everyone switched to computer programming... well, imagine all the things in your life that would disappear.

If I were one out of millions - they why is the number of new millionaires increasing by roughly 24% annually currently. It’s now way over 22 million.

 

[mpruet]

…

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^Just curious, if there are so many new millionaires their millions had to come from somewhere, right? Doesn’t it make sense that a lot more of people became poorer.
I also feel that people lying has become too easily accepted as normal behavior both in business and in politics. In fact many in this country seem to lie to themselves and live outside reality and expect something or someone other than themselves to make it happen. They have even created a history that is inaccurate although maybe for them and their personal experiences is seen as correct but for the majority of others not so much.

 

[Happy Camper]

A lot of new millionaires came from workers of companies that had stock options as an employer benefit/retention tool. When those companies were successful and they cashed in their options they became millionaires.

Microsoft was one such company. It was a running joke at one point that the people in the cubicles around your were all millionaires and still working in cubicles.

https://earnyourleisure.com/news/bu...res,an Estimated 12,000 Millionaire Employees

 

[Happy Camper]

A lot of other millionaires came from real estate. Some from investing in it. Others by owning a house that goes up in value.

The shack your grandparents bought for a few thousand dollars that's now valued at 1.2 million? They are millionaires.

 

[RonDean]

Well, not really. I got a lot of raises since 1980.

mpruet, You are obviously one of those for whom "things" worked out. That's great - for you. But please do not keep referencing your situation as if that were the norm. I have also had my share of successes - as well as my share of failures. Through it all I was able to understand that for many of us "but there for the luck of..." it could have been very different.

In the US many of us did better than our parents and we assumed this would continue. That is no longer the case. According to Pew some researchers have used a different metric to assess economic mobility: the share of children who earn more than their parents in inflation-adjusted terms. By this measure, the rate of absolute mobility has declined from about 90% for children born in 1940 to 50% for those born in 1984. And that trend shows no indication of reversing. I believe this fact drives many on both ends of the political spectrum to distrust much of what the "other" politicians are saying and doing.

As far as HC's comment, that there may be more millionaires speaks to the fact that a million is no longer as much as it once was and ignores the fact that those are the bottom of the economic ladder are doing worse. This is income inequality and IS growing. Also according to Pew, income inequality in the U.S. is found to have increased by about 20% from 1980 to 2016.

 

[mpruet]

^^^Just curious, if there are so many new millionaires their millions had to come from somewhere, right? Doesn’t it make sense that a lot more of people became poorer.
I also feel that people lying has become too easily accepted as normal behavior both in business and in politics. In fact many in this country seem to lie to themselves and live outside reality and expect something or someone other than themselves to make it happen. They have even created a history that is inaccurate although maybe for them and their personal experiences is seen as correct but for the majority of others not so much.

Not quite true. Money is simply a means of transfer. For the worker in most cases it’s the cash you receive for exchange of your time. You work and get paid.

There is not a finite amount of cash in the world. If that was the case then we would only have a fraction of the total cash that we do now. Back in the Middle Ages the mind set was that money was a tangible asset such as gold or silver, and there was a very limited supply. That’s one of the fundamental reasons that the economy stagnated for almost 1000 years. If money was a finite commodity then we’d still be living in one room mud huts with a thatch roof.

We are no longer in that mind set. We now value other assets and it’s been a while since we were on the gold or silver basis for cash. Think about it - you can’t eat gold - you can’t live in gold - etc. Basically gold only looks pretty, but in itself is fairly worthless. It only has value because we put a value on it.

When you put what money you have to work, then it becomes more valuable over time - either it is paying interest or dividends which you then also put back into work. That’s compounding. Of you buy a rent house and the rent you receive is used to buy another rent house. Eventually you become much more wealthy. But that doesn’t mean that the person renting the house becomes poorer. There is nothing preventing him/her from doing the same thing and increasing their wealth.