how to force battery bank to equalize

[SoulRaven]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'd like to continue the topic I started in the following thread:[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]battery bank 12.9, hydrometer in red[/font]

John61ct made the following suggestion in another topic... I like this. 
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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Best to ask a small number of questions on just one topic at a time, as specific as possible, relevant background details all in one post, don't assume we remember stuff from past (huge) posts (take too long).[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]TL;DR make things as easy as possible for helpers to help[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I mention this because I think discussions regarding how I got into this situation, what other batteries I have, etc....  would just take us down a rathole, IMO. I'd prefer to focus on the smallest "unit" of info I can.  I am learning a lot more this way, and hence, will be able to fix my own issues more and possibly assist others in the long run. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Trebor English posted a very helpful analysis of the situation I seem to be experiencing. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Trebor English's reply[/font]

I don't want to quote too much, to avoid the attention of the "quoting too-much police"... so, I'm just posting the pointer.  

If I understand TE's post, my battery bank's behavior indicates it is "sulfated", and requires equalization. Please correct me if I'm wrong.  Let's say that I have split 2 batteries off and am trying to "rescue" them without the benefit of an MPPT charge controller and no solar panel for those 2 batteries.  They are not being used at all at this time.  

Can/will someone advise me as to what would be the best way to get these batteries back to where the hydrometer reads in the green again?  I've looked at chargers that force equalization.  I could buy 2 more batteries for less.  Or so it seems.  

Thanks very much in advance for any help. 

Pat

 

[jimindenver]

If I see you here soon enough you can use my Meanwell power supply. It can be adjusted to provide the voltage your battery's manufacture specifies AFTER a normal charging regiment.

Are these your new 6 volts?

 

[SoulRaven]

If I see you here soon enough you can use my Meanwell power supply. It can be adjusted to provide the voltage your battery's manufacture specifies AFTER a normal charging regiment.

Are these your new 6 volts?

Yes, Jim, they are.  When you say "here"... do you mean Western AZ?  

Thanks.  I'll be happy to let you know more offline.  I've been through the ringer; I'm sure most of it was self-inflicted.  It's actually an interesting story.  


But diverting and distracting.  

But let's say I don't see you soon enough... Any suggestions from you or others regarding the next best step?  
Should I continue trying to trickle charge it?  Use my generator and just push 12v their way?  

On a side note, next wed I get my SSA check.  I will be driving to Buckeye to get a new axle for my trailer, and will probably pick up another panel from a place in Phoenix.  Can't remember the name.
UPDATE: Sun Electronics. 

Regards,

Pat

 

[jimindenver]

I should be in Ehrenberg in a day or two. Duck and I are leisurely taking the southern route.

In a emergency situation you may be able to use jumper cables off the truck to hit them with a boost and possible somewhat higher voltage. Once connected you may need to pull a cable off the trucks battery so that the alternator sees only the 6 volts.

If nothing else when I see you we can put the 6 volts on to the Expeditions panel/controller and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that it can do the job.

 

[SoulRaven]

I should be in Ehrenberg in a day or two. Duck and I are leisurely taking the southern route.

In a emergency situation you may be able to use jumper cables off the truck to hit them with a boost and possible somewhat higher voltage. Once connected you may need to pull a cable off the trucks battery so that the alternator sees only the 6 volts.

If nothing else when I see you we can put the 6 volts on to the Expeditions panel/controller and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that it can do the job.

How many doughnuts?     I'll just give you a dozen anyway.  

Sounds good. 

Thanks,

Pat

 

[Trebor English]

In a emergency situation you may be able to use jumper cables off the truck to hit them with a boost and possible somewhat higher voltage. Once connected you may need to pull a cable off the trucks battery so that the alternator sees only the 6 volts.

Absolutely do not have the engine running with no battery, not even for a second.  

Before presuming that the battery has an issue a check with a different hydrometer would be a good idea.

If you added water to the battery the specific gravity at the top of the battery will be low. 

Normally the dense concentrated acid sinks and the water floats.  That is usually a problem with stationary batteries.  Charging until the battery bubbles usually mixes it up enough.  

With 6 cells in series, each getting exactly the same charge current, one cell will be lower than the others.  Equalizing is over charging 5 cells until the weakest gets fully charged.  At that point all the cells are bubbling and they all have the same specific gravity.  

If the battery is sulfated you charge all the cells until the electrolyte is bubbling.  Keep adding water to keep the level half way from the plates to the plastic level thing.  Keep the temperature low.  Stay below 45 degrees C or 113 degrees F.  Stop charging and let it cool then charge more.  This charging requires high voltage, up to 16.2, and high current.  Stop when the specific gravity gets to 1.275 or stops rising.  Check it hourly.  Check the manufacturer's equalizing information as a guide.  If it is sulfated it can take a lot of watts to get that lead sulfate moving.  When you are done charging add water up to the level of the plastic level thing.   This should help restore the capacity of the battery.

 

[jimindenver]

I believe I mentioned to disconnect the truck battery after connecting the 6 volts.

 

[John61CT]

By the way, note that equalizing / conditioning is not at all a magic restorative for long-sulfated batteries.

Yes you can sometimes get a few more weeks or months use, if you treat them well from now on.

But best used as **preventative** routine maintenance, equalizing every month or six weeks, along with getting the bank to 100% Full most cycles.

Always do so manually following mfg protocols; don't let "smart charging" sources equalize automatically.

And questionable batteries should be 20-hour load tested, and scrapped when AH capacity has fallen, industry standard is by 20%, can stretch to 30% if you don't mind risking unexpected, maybe catastrophic, failure.

When you learn how and have the gear to treat your deep-cycle bank properly, even "coddle" them, you may be able to get 6-10 years lifespan from a quality set.

But suboptimal conditions may require replacing after just a year or two.

Best while you're still learning, and haven't yet built up the required infrastructure, to stick to inexpensive but good quality FLA golf car batts like Duracell/Deka.

 

[Trebor English]

I believe I mentioned to disconnect the truck battery after connecting the 6 volts.

Yes, you did specify the order.  I thought that, given the gravity of the consequences, having it spelled out more than once was appropriate.  I won't make it three times by warning again never to run an engine with no battery unless you are willing to replace all of the electronic devices including the alternator.

 

[Trebor English]

And questionable batteries should be 20-hour load tested, and scrapped when AH capacity has fallen, industry standard is by 20%, can stretch to 30% if you don't mind risking unexpected, maybe catastrophic, failure.

  
I have had one battery that had a vigorous failure.  One cell opened the case near the bottom and acid was ejected with some serious spew velocity.  It was caused by an internal malfunction that connected plus to minus inside that cell.  Corrosion of the positive plate support structure is likely.  The resulting heat caused steam or the spark ignited the hydrogen inside that cell or both.  

I used the word vigorous not violent.  I didn't use the word explosion.  There was no combustion outside of the battery case.  Any WalMart trolling motor battery case or any other  plastic box with a loose fitting lid would contain the spilled acid.  

The battery was working fine before the catastrophic failure.  I am not aware of any failure mechanisms that would be triggered by sulfation and consequent lack of capacity that would result in a catastrophic failure.
My point is that if you have a battery container (you should) that can catch spilled acid and it is tied down you ought not fear the battery.  There are no battery cops who are going to write you a ticket for using a crap battery that is down by more than 20%.  If it used to be a 220 amp hour battery and now it is only 75 and you can get by with 50% of the remaining 75, keep using it.  When you get the money it might be nice to have more battery.  Explosion is not any more likely, failure to power your lights is more likely.  There is no risk, it will happen.

 

[SoulRaven]

Before presuming that the battery has an issue a check with a different hydrometer would be a good idea.

You know, I was actually planning on doing that.  I should have done that befoer even posting my questions.  However, the replies I've received have been extremely informative, and I'm very grateful for that. 

John61ct

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]By the way, note that equalizing / conditioning is not at all a magic restorative for long-sulfated batteries.[/font]

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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Good advice, and should be remembered.  However, these batteries are just about a month old... I did not want to go down that hole.  I should have done ... well, lots of things differently.  [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] Also from John61ct[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But best used as **preventative** routine maintenance, equalizing every month or six weeks, along with getting the bank to 100% Full most cycles.[/font]
[/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Always do so manually following mfg protocols; don't let "smart charging" sources equalize automatically.[/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I've now learned that batteries need a lot of monitoring.  Like gardening, you must check the state of your plants every day.  Maybe even a little bit OCD.  [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I was still receiving unemployment benefits this spring, and had the money to buy 4 6v duracell batteries. [/font][/font][/size]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I should have ALSO gotten a group 27, and used/mis-used that. So, now, what I'm attempting to do is to figure how many things I've done wrong, and how to not do them in the future.  [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm trying to avoid a shotgun approach (try this, try that , etc...) but follow a methodical approach.  [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]So, first thing today , is to locate a different hydrometer.  [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]BTW, I mainly recharge my cell-phones and laptop and run my fantastic vent,  with this system.  No A/C, Microwave, heaters, fridges... not much at all.  Frankly, I've gotten skittish about using much of anything at all.  [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I've been using my truck's starter battery to recharge cell-phones and laptop since last week. [/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Thanks very much for all the help.[/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Pat [/font][/font][/size]

 

[John61CT]

"Vigorous failure" I like that!

Personally I won't use a batt after capacity's declined over 30%. I don't like surprises.

 

[John61CT]

> run my fantastic vent

Be aware that can be significant AH per day, depending on setting and hours used.

 

[SoulRaven]

> run my fantastic vent

Be aware that can be significant AH per day, depending on setting and hours used.

I will keep that in mind.  I only run it SOMETIMES, unless it's hot.  But good to know. 

This following comment is misleading:

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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]BTW, I mainly recharge my cell-phones and laptop and run my fantastic vent,  with this system.  No A/C, Microwave, heaters, fridges... not much at all.  Frankly, I've gotten skittish about using much of anything at all.  [/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The two batteries we are discussing get no use at all.  I've pulled them out of service and am trying to get them to where the hydrometer is "in the green"... which goes back to checking the battery with a different hydrometer.  I will use my neighbor's, when he gets his sleepy butt up!  [/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Pat [/font]

 

[SoulRaven]

As far as using my car and disconnecting the battery ( a BIG no-no) , wouldn't it make more sense to use my generator to do that? It has 12v output.

Am I missing something?

Thanks ,

Pat

 

[John61CT]

Sorry, but to do what? Lost track. . .

The 12V DC output from an AC genny is usually a tiny fraction of the total current generated, when HO is needed use as powerful a shore charger as the genny will support.

 

[jimindenver]

Pat

Done right your truck would never be disconnected from a battery.

I am in Ehrenberg now. Lets get together and figure this out.

 

[SoulRaven]

Pat

Done right your truck would never be disconnected from a battery.

I am in Ehrenberg now. Lets get together and figure this out.

Thanks, I'll catch up to you.  Going to be working on my bent axle the next couple of days.  Then need to run to Algo for BP meds.  

Thanks, Jim and Max, 

Pat

 

[SoulRaven]

Sorry, but to do what? Lost track. . .

The 12V DC output from an AC genny is usually a tiny fraction of the total current generated, when HO is needed use as powerful a shore charger as the genny will support.

Earlier in this thread, the following was posted:

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In a emergency situation you may be able to use jumper cables off the truck to hit them with a boost and possible somewhat higher voltage. Once connected you may need to pull a cable off the trucks battery so that the alternator sees only the 6 volts.

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Absolutely do not have the engine running with no battery, not even for a second.  [/font]

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So, I was thinking there is NO REASON to use a truck and it's battery when I have a gas generator around that puts out 12v.  

Thanks, 

Pat

 

[John61CT]

OK I see, I think.

But equalizing as per mfg protocols in itself might not require high amps, but does require 100 Full batteries as a starting point.

And very specific voltages, measuring amps accurately, etc

Not something IMO to do in the field, requires a good adjustable power supply running on grid shore power.

Obviously do whatever kludgy attempts to resuscitate a failing batt, but that's not equalizing.

And IMO no one getting off the beaten track should be letting a batt get to that point. As soon as possible after learning a batt has gotten well below 80% State of Health, scrap and replace it.

And use your better tools and greater knowledge to maintain an test your banks, not only to keep them healthy as long as possible but to ensure you never get any more "surprises" in that area.

In many use cases a functioning bank can be as important as tires or lubrication.