Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[RonDean]

Any suggestion for a solution other than spending $billions?

I think the question isn't spending or not spending.

1. Where and what we spend $ on is more important.
2. Laws and building codes do not cost billions of $$$. There are many ways changes here could provide more affordable housing.
3. Substance abuse is also a factor so spend enough $ to provide immediate help rather than having a waiting list.
4. Allow better community policing based on the proposition that keeping our streets safe and clean is just as important as homeless rights.
5. Provide legal urban camping areas and temporary tiny structures until affordable S&B housing can be provided. Provide security and utilities here to make residents feel safe.
6. Follow the "Housing First" model that does not require applicants to solve all their other problems before getting housing assistance.
7. Provide career and skills training. Provide "bridge" employment to help transition people back into more conventional jobs.
8. Stop insisting that everyone does things the traditional way. When it costs more to provide services based on some predetermined standards than just giving everyone sufficient $ to live on, I would just choose the lower-cost option. They may not DESERVE help, but neither do many wealthy people deserve what they have lucked into.

 

[rruff]

There are many ways changes here could provide more affordable housing.

Providing better salaries, better public benefits, and better treatment and shelter for people with debilitating psych issues... would be a good start.

Forget "affordable housing". That will take care of itself.

Btw, per the record setting highest ever homelessness # in 2022 (which wasn't corrected for population)... 0.18% of the US population are considered homeless.

 

[RonDean]

Providing better salaries, better public benefits, and better treatment and shelter for people with debilitating psych issues... would be a good start.

Forget "affordable housing". That will take care of itself.

Btw, per the record setting highest ever homelessness # in 2022 (which wasn't corrected for population)... 0.18% of the US population are considered homeless.

Yes, to the better salaries, etc.

I saw that 0.18% too. I also saw we have close to 650,000 people that are homeless. And that the US now has 333 million people. Maybe it's my math, but something here doesn't add up properly.

It also doesn't explain who it might be leaving out or how is the data collected. You can't count someone you don't see. We are also told that homelessness is increasing at a record rate. Nor do these numbers address the impact on our society or the current costs of trying to deal with it. For me, it is too large a number and says something is basically broken.

How many of something bad (homelessness, traffic accidents, gun deaths, child abuse, etc.) must there be before we say that's too many?

 

[DLTooley]

There is more money going into housing. Getting on waitlists for public housing is something aging nomads should do, it is a part of the ‘business model’ retiree support.

Rural projects can be an attempt to export big city problems. Keep your on property relations limited and prudent.

 

[rruff]

We are also told that homelessness is increasing at a record rate.

That's true according to their statistics, but it's still lower than it was per-capita. It had dropped since 2007 when they started keeping track, then leveled off and then went up during covid. It's most likely a phenomena of covid policies... they certainly supported turning functional addicts into dysfunctional ones, anyway.

 

[travelaround]

All those retired school buses that are being auctioned off could be put to good use as housing for the homeless. Help with retrofitting them would be needed - maybe something local governments would be able to provide. Also, RV spaces to live in.

I really think the cities should make sidewalk camping illegal. Camping is for campsites, not for city streets. And garbage removal services should be provided.

In Yreka many homeless people are camping on the hillside across from Behavioral Health. Others have camped at the creek behind Walmart. Though I wish they had adequate affordable housing, I think these locations are better than putting a tent on a sidewalk outside someone else's home or business.

 

[rruff]

All those retired school buses that are being auctioned off could be put to good use as housing for the homeless.

I don't believe many of the homeless people you *see* actually care about shelter. Or they have a place to sleep, and hang out on the streets and spange off the tourists the rest of the day. That was certainly the case in Santa Cruz. Free food, clothes, and tents were given away by charities. Spange and foodstamps were used for drugs/booze.

The "problem" isn't a lack of shelter. Rather it's people (nearly all guys) to whom the rat race ain't worth it. There is definitely an addiction and psych thing that is prevalent, but that isn't going to be "solved" with shelter either. They won't use a shelter unless it's near a place they want to be. And if the authorities will allow you to live on the beach in southern CA, it's hard to complain... easy livin'...

 

[RonDean]

I don't believe many of the homeless people you *see* actually care about shelter. Or they have a place to sleep, and hang out on the streets and spange off the tourists the rest of the day. That was certainly the case in Santa Cruz. Free food, clothes, and tents were given away by charities. Spange and foodstamps were used for drugs/booze.

The "problem" isn't a lack of shelter. Rather it's people (nearly all guys) to whom the rat race ain't worth it. There is definitely an addiction and psych thing that is prevalent, but that isn't going to be "solved" with shelter either. They won't use a shelter unless it's near a place they want to be. And if the authorities will allow you to live on the beach in southern CA, it's hard to complain... easy livin'...

That's one view, but not one that is likely to induce any changes. Yes, I am sure some of the homeless fit that model, but I haven't seen any sort of actual research data that could confirm it. Just in the areas I have lived and visited, I have talked to far more people who would be happy to move into any sort of better shelter that was affordable for them. Countries and cities that have provided cheap housing without unnecessary restrictions (housing first) have seen a reduction in homelessness. That would indicate many of them don't enjoy living under a tarp on the street.

Nor do I think this is just a "them" problem we should ignore. I agree with Travelaround that I don't like seeing people camped on our streets and sidewalks. Not to mention the trash and human feces lying around because of the lack of available toilets. I have some experience trying to make a small storefront successful and can't imagine how having people camped on my doorstep would help.

I think one of the biggest problems is not exactly "what" they might live in (bus, shipping container, tiny house, tent, etc..) but WHERE. From small towns to big cities, all the establishment types (tax-paying citizens) just want them out of sight and somewhere far away. But that would also put them far away from whatever support and services might be available to them. Maybe we need "Domestic Refugee" camps with services in a more acceptable location but with sufficient security and services and a lack of onerous requirements that might make them desirable places to stay. It would probably still be far cheaper than what some places are now spending on the problem.

Then we might be able to address the hard cases that remain on the street and that fit rruff's description in some other way.

 

[WanderingRose]

From small towns to big cities, all the establishment types (tax-paying citizens) just want them out of sight and somewhere far away.

I think that is absolutely true, and I can tell you that as an owner of a small s&b, I don’t want a homeless encampment near me.

The town I live in, rather sizable, considers vehicles parked more than 24 hours on a city street to be abandoned.

They are tagged and then can be towed by the city if not moved.

There is also no sleeping, camping, etc., of any sort allowed on public streets.

We have homeless in our community, but they are in shelters or are living in unconventional housing under the radar.

I don’t believe we will solve this issue here, only hopefully promote some insight, compassion, empathy and understanding.

 

[WanderingRose]

Just saw a clip on our mid day news of a small homeless encampment near a church in a neighboring city, advocates speaking to the availability of shelter housing but that some were ineligible due to substance usage and/or behavioral issues.

So, they are in tents, and it is cold.

Again, going back to the emptying of institutions 50+ years ago, turning into the community those who struggle for many reasons and no longer have 24 hour caretakers to be sure they take their meds, keep them on some sort of behavioral compliance program, etc.

All funds that could possibly be directed toward resolving this issue will always bypass a percentage who don’t want or can’t accept services to resolve their situation, for varying reasons.

And there is no entity effectively managing those who need management, but can choose to accept or decline it.

 

[RonDean]

Just saw an interesting article about giving a group of just over 100 homeless people in California's Los Angeles County and San Francisco Bay Area $750 per month for a year — no questions asked. After 6 months the results are:
*Those who received the $750 monthly stipend were less likely to remain unsheltered and closer to having enough money to meet all of their basic needs as compared to a control group who accessed usual homeless services, the study found.
*...most of the spending from the $750 stipend, at 36.6%, was focused on food in the first six months. Nearly 20% was spent on housing, 12.7% on transportation, 11.5% on clothing, 6.2% on healthcare, and 13.6% on other expenses that were not classified, the study found.
*More importantly, the initial findings "dispels this myth that people will use money for illicit purposes," ...

Link below:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...E&cvid=623b6973925b4a858105052d6097ac58&ei=54
It makes the case for a simple "universal basic income" as against providing a plethora of "services."

​

 

[travelaround]

I wonder what percentage of homeless people already are getting SSI or some other form of regular income. I realize that's not enough to rent an apartment these days in many areas.

 

[RonDean]

I wonder what percentage of homeless people already are getting SSI or some other form of regular income. I realize that's not enough to rent an apartment these days in many areas.

Good question! I was also wondering exactly how far such an amount of $$ would go in such a high cost-of-living area. It seems like it wouldn't be enough on its own to do much. I also had a few other ??? that weren't answered in this short article. But, the info that was provided was still pertinent to our most recent posts. And the study results were encouraging.

 

[WanderingRose]

Interesting article, RonDean.

Money given in the form of a debit card can’t be used directly for drugs or alcohol, tho goods purchased can then be exchanged for cash, which is then untraceable.

 

[RonDean]

Interesting article, RonDean.

Money given in the form of a debit card can’t be used directly for drugs or alcohol, tho goods purchased can then be exchanged for cash, which is then untraceable.

Although I consider myself a progressive, I have long believed that the more agencies and/or people we insert into any process the less is likely to be accomplished. Beyond enriching those people inserted on the process, of course. This includes our current US medical system, BTW. But that doesn't mean we should have NO accountability.

I would not be surprised that just giving money to the needy might be more productive than making them jump a series of hurdles first. While there will always be some people who abuse any system, this experiment would seem to indicate the majority would rather be feed and sheltered. Providing funds on a tracible card is only a reasonable safeguard, even if some might find workarounds. I am sure there are workarounds to any system if one is motivated enough.

And the alternatives would be what? We, as a society, have already decided not to just leave the needy to freeze and starve. We have a patchwork system of charities and government programs providing assistance. This experiment was to determine if there was a more efficient way to help. Not an either/or on helping at all.

 

[rruff]

And the alternatives would be what? We, as a society, have already decided not to just leave the needy to freeze and starve. We have a patchwork system of charities and government programs providing assistance. This experiment was to determine if there was a more efficient way to help. Not an either/or on helping at all.

We can make up all sorts of stories from the peanut gallery... I suggest hanging out with the homeless that you wish to help for a few months. Without any agenda. Just do what they do, and live like they live. Get to really know them. Maybe you will find someone that you can help personally, and that would be a great thing.

Their reasons for doing what they do will be diverse, and will vary by place as well. But few will be "high functioning" people who "would like to be part of the normal society, but have fallen on hard times." Rather they are living the way they wish, given their options. A common thread is that they do not wish to be part of the rat race... regular job, responsibilities, bills, taxes, etc and everything that comes with it. And they like to be free and unencumbered. They generally stay warm and well fed and sleep comfortably, as any non-suicidal being would. Drugs and alcohol, and psych issues are both cause and effect... and very common.

There is a reason why CA has over half the chronically homeless in the US... and WA and OR are 2nd and 3rd. They move there for the mild climate and good begging opportunities, and relatively sympathetic citizens and consequent lack of police harassment. In fact I've read that it was made illegal to kick-out any homeless person from where they happen to be, unless you provide a place for them to stay. I guess that seems reasonable to a lot of well-meaning folks who don't live near the homeless camp and have no clue about what is happening...

Of course everyone likes money... especially when nothing is required of us and no strings are attached. If you give them an apartment in a place where they are hanging out already, and have no "hoops to jump through"... like staying kinda sober... or going to counseling... or taking psych meds... then why not? But the only problem you're solving is that they are less visible... so long as their apartments aren't where yours is.

Full disclosure... I very much enjoyed living with the chronically homeless people in Santa Cruz. Most of them were the most relaxed, freedom-loving, and real bunch I've ever been around. One pretty universal trait is "not trying to be something/somebody". Not really any persona to maintain. We're all equal when standing in line at the soup kitchen...

Exactly what is the "problem" you are trying to "solve"? I think it's important to get very clear on that...

 

[WanderingRose]

Very good, rruff, you really nailed it and I agree with your assessments.

 

[bullfrog !]

I think the disagreement here involves monitoring the people who receive the benefits versus just giving out benefits. Problem is it cost more to monitor than to just give out benefits at their current level. Fact of the matter is most would require not only monitoring but mentoring. Seems to me the reason programs like some based on housing first work is because not only the people receiving the aid but the people supplying the aid are vested in getting good results. Either way much more funds than are dedicated will be required to get the results needed thru better monitoring and mentoring. Motivation is needed for those that need change in their lives and those that want to make a change in them. Just an opinion to be sure.

 

[WanderingRose]

Amen, bullfrog, and good job.

It is much easier to help people out of anything that they have fallen into, having previously known a different kind of life, than those who have known nothing else. In my opinion and experience.

It can be immeasurably difficult to visualize a lifestyle that has never before been yours, much less to accept the basic structure and expectations that go along with what many of us would see as an “improved” life/lifestyle.

Very, very complex.

 

[rruff]

Motivation is needed for those that need change in their lives and those that want to make a change in them. Just an opinion to be sure.

It can be immeasurably difficult to visualize a lifestyle that has never before been yours, much less to accept the basic structure and expectations that go along with what many of us would see as an “improved” life/lifestyle.

Most of the homeless I met had plenty of experience with "normal life"... and they did not miss it or long for it. But... I suppose addiction has a way of making a "zero responsibility life" very sensible. The cycle of the daily fix is their life, and they need to get sick of it or find some motivation to kick it before they can hope to change. The "carrot" of normal life is far too weak, and the "stick" of being homeless is... well pretty much absent if you are camping on the beach in S CA and the cops aren't bothering you!

I friend told me that his nephew (who I'd met a couple times), became a homeless addict in Portland. He was from WI originally. I don't know how long he'd been homeless, but another of his relatives went to Portland and tracked him down, and physically forced and hauled him back to WI and put him in rehab, and took care of him. The nephew eventually got clean and sober and is happy in a normal life... good job, house, wife, kids, etc. Great success story! But so many similar cases go nowhere...