Hiding Places for Valuables?

[Seraphim]

One last comment on the compartment. Here's the section in its entirety. Read the last paragraph I

Also read paragraph D - if the operator had a previous conviction, and we have no information about the arrested persons drug record in thiis case. There's always information we, as readers, don't have.

The online versions of legislation provided on this website are not official. Enrolled bills are the final version passed by the Ohio General Assembly and presented to the Governor for signature. The official version of acts signed by the Governor are available from the Secretary of State's Office in the Continental Plaza, 180 East Broad St., Columbus.
(129th General Assembly)
(Amended Substitute Senate Bill Number 305)


AN ACT
To enact section 2923.241 of the Revised Code to prohibit designing, building, constructing, fabricating, modifying, or altering a vehicle to create or add a hidden compartment with the intent to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance, prohibit operating, possessing, or using a vehicle with a hidden compartment with knowledge that the hidden compartment is used or intended to be used to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance, and prohibit a person who has committed a first or second degree felony violation of aggravated trafficking in drugs from operating, possessing, or using a vehicle with a hidden compartment.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Ohio:
SECTION 1. That section 2923.241 of the Revised Code be enacted to read as follows:

Sec. 2923.241. (A) As used in this section:

(1) "Controlled substance" has the same meaning as in section 3719.01 of the Revised Code.

(2) "Hidden compartment" means a container, space, or enclosure that conceals, hides, or otherwise prevents the discovery of the contents of the container, space, or enclosure. "Hidden compartment" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

(a) False, altered, or modified fuel tanks;

(b) Any original factory equipment on a vehicle that has been modified to conceal, hide, or prevent the discovery of the modified equipment's contents;

(c) Any compartment, space, box, or other closed container that is added or attached to existing compartments, spaces, boxes, or closed containers integrated or attached to a vehicle.

(3) "Vehicle" has the same meaning as in section 4511.01 of the Revised Code and includes, but is not limited to, a motor vehicle, commercial tractor, trailer, noncommercial trailer, semitrailer, mobile home, recreational vehicle, or motor home.

(4) "Motor vehicle," "commercial trailer," "trailer," "noncommercial trailer," "semitrailer," "mobile home," "manufacturer," "recreational vehicle," and "motor home" have the same meanings as in section 4501.01 of the Revised Code.

(5) "Motor vehicle dealer" has the same meaning as in section 4517.01 of the Revised Code.

(B) No person shall knowingly design, build, construct, or fabricate a vehicle with a hidden compartment, or modify or alter any portion of a vehicle in order to create or add a hidden compartment, with the intent to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance.

(C) No person shall knowingly operate, possess, or use a vehicle with a hidden compartment with knowledge that the hidden compartment is used or intended to be used to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance.

(D) No person who has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of aggravated trafficking in drugs under section 2925.03 of the Revised Code that is a felony of the first or second degree shall operate, possess, or use a vehicle with a hidden compartment.

(E) Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of designing a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance. Except as otherwise provided in this division, designing a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance is a felony of the fourth degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (B) of this section, designing a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance is a felony of the third degree.

(F) Whoever violates division (C) or (D) of this section is guilty of operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance. Except as otherwise provided in this division, operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance is a felony of the fourth degree. Except as otherwise provided in this division, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (C) or (D) of this section, operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance is a felony of the third degree. If the hidden compartment contains a controlled substance at the time of the offense, operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment used to transport a controlled substance is a felony of the second degree.

(G) This section does not apply to any law enforcement officer acting in the performance of the law enforcement officer's duties.

(H)(1) This section does not apply to any licensed motor vehicle dealer or motor vehicle manufacturer that in the ordinary course of business repairs, purchases, receives in trade, leases, or sells a motor vehicle.

(2) This section does not impose a duty on a licensed motor vehicle dealer to know, discover, report, repair, or disclose the existence of a hidden compartment to any person.

(I) This section does not apply to a box, safe, container, or other item added to a vehicle for the purpose of securing valuables, electronics, or firearms provided that at the time of discovery the box, safe, container, or other item added to the vehicle does not contain a controlled substance or visible residue of a controlled substance.

---

(Sigh) News articles these days often give whatever half of the story that agrees with the organization's political views or is likely to excite their readers. The rest of the story either doesn't get covered at all or gets covered by another organization that emphasizes their point of view.

I did notice the sources linked were not major media sources, as well. It's possible there's more information, and it's possible the officers made an error in judgement regarding the arrest. Professional curiosity - I'm curious about the turnout.

---

Follow the Gurley case here:


http://cp.onlinedockets.com/loraincp/case_dockets/Docket.aspx?CaseID=321886

Pretrial outcome has not been posted yet.

---

Pretrial hearing was scheduled for last Thursday

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

. . . and it's possible the officers made an error in judgement regarding the arrest. Professional curiosity - I'm curious about the turnout.

As they said towards the end of the REASON article:

"Regardless, the man has spent several months contemplating prison time—and likely has some legal bills to boot. As police like to say, you can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride."

Personally, I'd just as soon skip the ride.

Regards
John

 

[akrvbob]

The topic of does a hidden compartment open us up to criminal or civil liabilities is a valid subject for this forum. However, we need to be very careful to remain on that topic. It can easily stray to areas we don't allow.

Civil forfeiture is becoming a really big issue but not one appropriate for this forum. Inevitably it will break down to "The government is good/evil" or "I love/hate the police" Neither topic is allowed here.

Those posts will be edited or deleted.
Bob

 

[Seraphim]

I've heard that a good place to store important papers (not valuable) is in the freezer. In case of fire there is good chance of survival. A box from a frozen food product could be emptied and reused to store valuables and hidden in plain sight in the freezer as well. This option would only be available to those with a freezer.

Guy

I'd use a box from something no one likes - like frozen Brussels sprouts. Use a Carton from ice cream sandwiches, and you can kiss your valuables goodbye lol.

 

[Ballenxj]

I still can't believe they wrestled the big glass tube TV's over that fence.

I'm amazed at the great lengths crack heads will go to as well. If only they would use that energy to do something productive............

 

[Seraphim]

When my outlaws had their moho broken into, they cleaned out the frig too. The thieves clearly thought about the "hide it in the frig" concept but didn't want to take the time to go through everything. Cops said the freezer was a common hiding place for retired folks.

I noticed that seraphims "does not apply to a box, safe, container, or other item added to a vehicle for the purpose of securing valuables, electronics, or firearms" So I don't see the issue unless you are running drugs????:huh:

In every department there is an "idiot with a badge" that refuses to use good judgement. Just can't be helped. They don't last long but in the meantime they cost the gov a lot of money, but that is what DA's are for.:s

Friends of mine have invested $20k in electronics in there rig. No rig is safe from a break-in. To me that kind of money invested into electronics is just a "bait" for bad guys. :-/

When I had an overdrive installed in my 3rd moho the bad guys broke out a roof vent and droped a kid through then cleaned the place out. Food, electronics, everything. Insurance didn't really help. After that I made a hidy hole for my valuables. Cops said it took just minutes. It was locked inside a razor wire topped cyclone fenced yard. I still can't believe they wrestled the big glass tube TV's over that fence.

Proving 'intent' can be nebulous and difficult. This is a new law, and over time reasonable standards will be established in court which will guide officers in their decision making process. These standards will be shaped by the 'reasonable man' standards used by juries composed - allegedly lol - of reasonable people.

Let's take the Norman case from Ohio. A heavy odor of marijuana and a hidden compartment discovered by trial and error ( or so it seems - no mention of a search warrant). The opening mechanism was extremely complex, requiring a complicated series of electrical engagements to open the compartment. The passenger was later to be discovered to be in possession of marijuana, but that was discovered after the drivers arrest, so is not a factor in the decision making process.

The case first goes to a probable cause hearing. The offices have to demonstrate before a judge their decision making process was logical, their investigative actions legal, and their deduction which led to the arrest reasonable by an average person's standards. Looking at the docket I posted, Norman ( who is out on bond) waived his right to this hearing. He did not contest the officers probable cause.

Pretrial - since this is an alleged felony - is where a judge decides, after hearing the evidence, whether or not the trial proceeds to a grand jury. This is also the opportunity for the defendant to attempt a plea bargain - pleading guilty to a related misdemeanor charge - or requesting the charges be dropped for various reasons. The probable cause hearing and Pretrial are conducted in a local court, and are designed to double check evidence and testimonies, in order to protect the defendant. The judge can drop the charges, permit or deny a plea bargain, or bind the case over as a felony to the county court. Norman's Pretrial has been continually delayed at his own request, something like 5 times ( I didn't count precisely). The judge is the first test of this particular situation. We have to await the outcome in this case.

If passed on to the county, the next step is Grand Jury. The Grand Jury is a group of average people who have one function: to listen to the evidence and testimony, and decide if - according to the specific wording of the law and in their reasonable opinion - a felony crime may have been committed, and the arrest was 'reasonable'. They can dismiss the charge, change it to a different misdemeanor charge and send it back to the local court, or allow it to proceed on the original felony charge. This will the first test of what the average citizens think of this particular situation.

If grand jury passes it on, it will go to trial before a different jury of reasonable people. If either jury decides that an odor of marijuana and a complexly concealed compartment doesn't prove intent, then that mix of evidence will not be considered as probable cause in future investigations. If both juries of reasonable people are convinced by the arguments, it will help establish that particular as probable cause for future arrests.

Over time precedents will be set by courts based on these decisions which will affect all arrests and prosecutions of this law. That will take time. But it is the average people who shape how new laws are interpreted and enforced, by listening to the total circumstances of the situation, and deciding what they believe to be reasonable.

The 'reasonable man theory' is always the the test of any case, and the test is ultimately administered by average people.

---

The problem I see with a case like this, based on the information we have on hand, is I see no indication of drug running, nor intent to use the compartment for drug running. The complex lock mechanism is enough to make a reasonable person suspicious, I think, but that and an odor alone may be insufficient. The defense attorney will probably argue they may be pot users driving along in a car with a concealed compartment, but that doesn't make them drug runners, or prove they intended to use the compartment for that purpose. If Norman has previously been convicted of trafficking, the point is moot, because the law forbids any previously convicted dealer from even driving a car with a concealed compartment. Norman's attorney has stated publicly that his client has no such record, and that the car being driven was not Norman's, but belonged to a friend, and that Norman was not aware of the compartment. None of that has been established, though, and the prosecutor probably has information that may not come out until grand jury. Bottom line, however, is if there is more than a reasonable doubt in the trial jury's mind, they are supposed to find the defendant innocent. So, we'll see...

 

[marigold]

Seraphim, I wonder if you could comment on how to keep cash safe from a seizure by LEO? As a traveling artist, would proof of a small business license be enough? Would I need receipts or a financial record? Im just starting out selling at craft markets and art fairs and also travel quite a bit through Oregon and cali where cash in a vehicle is often like to drug trade. Thanks.

 

[Spirituallifetime]

Don't tell the officer you have any cash on you or in the vehicle, you are not required to tell them. Don't engage in casual conversation with the officer, they will lead the conversation to find any suspicion of illegal drug use or sale of drugs to confiscate your money. Some are very good at that. Even if you are a law abiding citizen and have never used illegal drugs all they need is suspicion that you intended to buy illegal drugs. Always be polite hand them your license and proof of insurance when asked. And don't speak about anything just take the ticket if you get one and be done with the whole matter.

 

[cdiggy]

Don't tell the officer you have any cash on you or in the vehicle, you are not required to tell them. Don't engage in casual conversation with the officer, they will lead the conversation to find any suspicion of illegal drug use or sale of drugs to confiscate your money. Some are very good at that. Even if you are a law abiding citizen and have never used illegal drugs all they need is suspicion that you intended to buy illegal drugs. Always be polite hand them your license and proof of insurance when asked. And don't speak about anything just take the ticket if you get one and be done with the whole matter.

Yes! They are not your friend. They are there to further their career in law enforcement and generate revenue for the department they work for. Be nice and polite and that is it. Nothing good can come from telling them you have cash on hand.

 

[Seraphim]

Seraphim, I wonder if you could comment on how to keep cash safe from a seizure by LEO? As a traveling artist, would proof of a small business license be enough? Would I need receipts or a financial record? Im just starting out selling at craft markets and art fairs and also travel quite a bit through Oregon and cali where cash in a vehicle is often like to drug trade. Thanks.

For an officer to find money, they'd have to initiate a search which generally requires a warrant, unless you give permission for a search. There are issues of officer safety which - depending on the state and circumstances - can permit the officer to check the passenger compartment near the occupants for weapons.

On a traffic stop, which is generally when you'll be talking to an officer, you have to provide a license. It's reasonable he ask questions to confirm you're identity. ID photos aren't the greatest, and information - such as addresses - often change. So confirming ID and information on a license is a reasonable request. You are not required to answer questions, but answering these makes things go more smoothly, and shows you are cooperating. 
Answering any other questions is up to you. Permitting a search of your vehicle is up to you.

It's the officer's job to ask questions. You'd be surprised how often a question like, "Do you have any drugs in your car?" Gets an answer like "well, I got a little weed here."  Often, the questions are just casual and part of the officers SOP. If they don't ask, they don't get info. When someone says 'No', the automatic follow up question is, "Do you mind if I check? ". "Not today officer, I'd just prefer to get on my way'. There are a lot of successful - and substantial - drug interdictions completed because officers asked a series of simple questions.

For your basic question - an officer cannot legally seize your assets just because you have a lot of money.  If he finds money and drugs, or illegal weapons, money can be taken as evidence in a trafficking charge.  There legal assumptions if you have a certain quantity of drugs, they're for sale and not just for personal consumption. Don't carry drugs and lots of money. Or any other contraband.

If you carry money in a locked container in the vehicle, secure the container in a part of the car you can't reasonably reach without leaving the vehicle, or at least the front seat.  Under the back seat for instance. If the vehicle is ever searched without a warrant, you are not required to unlock the compartment. Just advise it contains personal items - nothing illegal - and you don't wish to open it. He may try to wheedle you a bit - "If there's nothing illegal, why won't you open it?" - but just remain politely firm. Often he's just going through the motions.

The only way an officer can legally get into a locked container, without your permission, is with a search warrant from a judge, and he needs reasonable suspicion of a crime to get that.  If  he sees something, smells something, or you say something that sounds like an admission. Even if the driver of the car is arrested for something, the car can be inventoried before being towed off the roadway or over public property, but they cannot search into locked areas of the car or locked containers without a warrant. If there is reasonable suspicion, they can get a warrant while the car is on the impound lot, then do a complete search. An inventory of property in a towed vehicle is not a search, but contraband found in an inventory can be used as a basis for charges.

A lot of info you may never need.  Short answer- keep money locked in a container that is secured to the vehicle somehow.  Mine has a cable system looped though the rear seat frame. With proper tools, the cable could be cut and the box removed but it would take a thief time. It prevents the box from being casually removed for any reason. Make it so it's not visible - under the rear seat, for example.  Politely refuse to answer questions not relevant to the stop, and don't give permission for searches. Don't offer to unlock locked containers. Just advise it's personal, or business related material, and there's nothing illegal inside. If you want to be more forthcoming, that's fine, but not necessary. No need to extend the conversation.
Keeping transactional records with cash is a good idea. Will help alleviate any suspicion should an officer get into the locked box by whatever means. Also remember, once the officer concludes the reason for a traffic stop, he cannot detain you further. He hands you a ticket, a warning, or says I'm giving you a warning, the reason for that stop is over. If he continues asking questions, politely ask, "Excuse me officer, but am I free to go?" The answer should be ,"yes". Officers have a reasonable amount of time to conclude a traffic stop. They cannot extend that stop for investigative purposes without reasonable suspicion - the smell of marijuana, for example. But they must provide the reasons for extending the stop to you and, ultimately, to a judge.

Hope this info helps.  But also remember, cops are human and make mistakes. There's a lot to know, and no one remembers everything. Search and seizure should be something every officers has down pat, but not always. Also, Some shouldn't have the badge they're wearing. Just don't provide them with any type of justification that can be used against you. Firm, but polite. You're probably being recorded. The officer knows this as well. If the officer makes a mistake, and conducts an illegal search, that can be handled later in court. Yea, it can be really inconvenient for you, but still don't act in a manner that provokes and can be used against you. Best advice I can offer.
 

 

[Seraphim]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under...extend-traffic-stop-for-dog-sniff-205857.html

 

[marigold]

Thanks seraphim, not too much info at all and great to have your perspective on this.

 

[akrvbob]

Seraphim, that post was so outstanding I would like to use it as a post on my blog. I'll use it just like you wrote it but I'll add organization like headers and bullets just to make it more organized.

I didn't read it real close but the grammer and spelling look good but if you want I can correct those if they need it, or leave it entirely alone--whatever you prefer.

That is such a reasonable and balanced explanation that I'd like as many people as possible to see it.
Bob

 

[Seraphim]

Seraphim, that post was so outstanding I would like to use it as a post on my blog. I'll use it just like you wrote it but I'll add organization like headers and bullets just to make it more organized.

I didn't read it real close but the grammer and spelling look good but if you want I can correct those if they need it, or leave it entirely alone--whatever you prefer.

That is such a reasonable and balanced explanation that I'd like as many people as possible to see it.
Bob

No problem. Correct any errors

 

[Milk Hauler]

.....

 

[Phyllis Robinson]

I believe the S&P 500 has outperformed gold historically. So investors would be smart to put most of their money in stocks. I would also have a certain amount in physical gold/silver as well for insurance against an economic disaster. I think living off grid in self sufficient van/RV to be good insurance.

Most foreign banks are turning away Americans due to massive reporting requirements (FATCA). It's not worth it to them. When you do find a foreign bank willing there's additional filing requirements on your part (FBAR) and massive penalties if your late filing just to store money overseas. This is all in addition to normal IRS income reporting.

I believe our economy cannot sustain the massive welfare, rampant fake disability, housing fraud, food stamp fraud, tax refund fraud, etc. It's inevitable, it's just a matter of when (10 yrs? 20 yrs?). Just this week the Bureau of Labor Statistics said a record high 92,120,000 Americans aged 16 and older are not in the work force. That means someone else is being forced to take care of these people. How long can this last? They also said the labor force participation rate for Americans was 62.8 percent, matching a 36-year low. It was lower under Carter which is one big reason he's labelled the worst president ever. If it goes much lower Carter may no longer be labelled worst president.

These facts are subject to change as facts are facts because there is widespread agreement, not because there is some ultimate truth to the fact.

Whew! Long post

I keep hearing people say this all the time, but how accurate is this? I am a retired baby boomer and each year more and more of us retire. Are we in that 62.8 percent who you claim are not working? If so, we paid our dues and should not be considered dead beats.  My husband started working at 15 and worked until he was 70, so is he one you think you are paying for?  With record people retiring now, if they are included, these number are going to continue to look bad.

 

[GrayWhale]

Good, informative post. Too bad there's a ton of junk from financial advisers practicing w/o a license to wade through. I mean c'mon, we get it...you're the wizard of wallstreet and shit. But some of us like to keep like $1,000 or so in cash somewhere and it would suck to have it stolen. Not everyone feels like going to the bank often and some people want to live that Unibomber lifestyle in the woods.

 

[GrayWhale]

I was watching a YT video on a female vandweller who said "yes" to a search and she said that they ransacked the hell out of her minivan right there on the side of the road. I bet they pulled out all of her interior moldings too and doubt if they put it back the way it was before the search. Imagine if this was a night. She said it was much easier to vandwell in Mexico where nobody bothered her, including the neighborhood people (I guess in non-high drug cartel area though).

She's Black and this was in Virginia, if that means anything.

 

[Ticklebellly]

How big a space are we discussing here? I don't have any guns, pistol or long gun, so only want to put a barrier between a laptop, a camera, and a couple of smallish items, and a thief. I have a hinged flap in back of a cupboard and it is secured with two No 3 Phillip head screws. Hiding in plain sight is the strategy if I want to leave the van for some time. Have never done drugs so no residue anywhere in the van.

I do have a Pelican case that I sometimes chain to a seat stanchion before throwing a blanket over. Would slow a thief down a bit and likely not lead to further searching.

A tip from my time in the military, never put Secret Squirrel stuff and stuff of monetary value in the same space. I do have a couple of encrypted computer files on memory sticks, and back ups, in insulated metal tubes in hard to get at places. Double wall insulated drink bottles are a good place to store laminated paper sheets with coded lists of passwords and bank account numbers.

Hard copy of recovery phrases and code words for electronic wallets can be engraved on a thin metal sheet for subsequent hiding (engraved side down) glued against van's outside skin. Paper records burn in a vehicle fire but the metal sheet will survive.

Last one - friend who is collecting bullion has sunk poly pipe over two metres vertically into his back yard. Bullion bars are lowered into the pipe on Fishing Braid then end of the braid is tied to the screw on cap. Bit of turf over the cap and we are into Pirate Treasure Map territory. Why two metres deep? Most metal detectors won't go that deep.

 

[John61CT]

Really shouldn't risk your friend like that, I know you trust Bob, but what about all the staffers at his webhost?

Just too easy in general to get doxx'd these days