Hiding Places for Valuables?

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Federal Credit Unions are insured - not by the FDIC - but by a different organization called the NCUA. This was established in 1970.

If your friends lost their money 25 years ago, it most likely means they were in some STATE chartered credit union.

If you are genuinely concerned that the Federal govt might seize your funds in an American bank, I suppose you could move some of them to Canada, put them in a Canadian bank as Canadian dollars.

Regards
John

 

[66788]

No one has lost 1 cent in USA banks since 1930. If you want to panic, please, at least get your facts right.

The problem is not with the banks losing your money, it's with the dollar itself. Anyone with assets denominated in US dollars is holding a toxic asset.

Hard assets are the only way to preserve wealth. Tools, guns, silver and gold etc. You don't have to believe that this will happen for it to affect you. It's kind of like gravity. Not just a good idea; It's the law!

 

[jeanontheroad]

Land might good, the kind of land that can support you. But gold and silver are not safe. They are risky, volatile investments. In many of the forms that you are allowed to physically keep it (jewelry, coins), you pay way more way than it is worth for it.

In the kind of SHTF situation survivalists worry about, how would you spend it or keep it safe? It may make you a target for violent people who wouldn't bother you, otherwise. It's heavy as hell to drag around. If you try to hide it, anyone with a metal detector can find it. Maybe someone just stumbles across it. You can't eat it or drink it and it uses up too much of your energy.

If you want an inflation-proof investment for some of your money, you are best of with mutual funds that mirror the S&P 500. Yes, they will go up and down. But historically, they have not only beaten inflation , they have also done better than other types of managed funds over time. The secret is time and the iron nerves to sit tight while the market slumps. If you don't have other money and can't afford to sit tight, you can end up in trouble.

 

[Zil]

Well put, Jean.
I can understand having a few months of food and a source of potable water to cover emergency, think storms. But I put my faith and trust in the USA economy. Even American Buggy Whip Inc stock is worth money on the antique paper market.

 

[Ballenxj]

No one has lost 1 cent in USA banks since 1930.

That, and I had one bank I dealt with taken over by another with no bad results. The account was just transferred with no loss.

 

[spd2918]

A note on hidden compartments:

When crossing in Canada or Mexico you might have you rig pass through an x-ray machine. If the customs people see hidden compartments your rig will received special attention.

---

I don't see a rosy future for this country either. Too many people living off others- when the government checks stop they will form mobs.

A good investment is brass (as in ammo).

 

[Bdog1]

Thx 66788.
You can get your money "stolen" without even opening the safe door. The loss in purchasing power is due to inflation. (The inflation we don't have according to the government.) There's no need to drive around to the banks and load it all up!

 

[vagari]

I believe the S&P 500 has outperformed gold historically. So investors would be smart to put most of their money in stocks. I would also have a certain amount in physical gold/silver as well for insurance against an economic disaster. I think living off grid in self sufficient van/RV to be good insurance.

Most foreign banks are turning away Americans due to massive reporting requirements (FATCA). It's not worth it to them. When you do find a foreign bank willing there's additional filing requirements on your part (FBAR) and massive penalties if your late filing just to store money overseas. This is all in addition to normal IRS income reporting.

I believe our economy cannot sustain the massive welfare, rampant fake disability, housing fraud, food stamp fraud, tax refund fraud, etc. It's inevitable, it's just a matter of when (10 yrs? 20 yrs?). Just this week the Bureau of Labor Statistics said a record high 92,120,000 Americans aged 16 and older are not in the work force. That means someone else is being forced to take care of these people. How long can this last? They also said the labor force participation rate for Americans was 62.8 percent, matching a 36-year low. It was lower under Carter which is one big reason he's labelled the worst president ever. If it goes much lower Carter may no longer be labelled worst president.

These facts are subject to change as facts are facts because there is widespread agreement, not because there is some ultimate truth to the fact.

Whew! Long post

 

[jeanontheroad]

Vagari, for the average small investor who does not have the time or interest to intensely study the market, individual stocks are probably not the best idea. It is hard for a small investor to buy enough individual stocks to be adequately diversified throughout economic sectors.

A mutual fund is a better idea. S&P500 funds are not flashy get-rich-quick schemes, but they have outperformed most other funds over time. They provide diversification that would otherwise not be possible for the small investor. They do have an inherent risk, like any other investment, but they are about as secure as you can get and still get a reasonable return over time. Time is the secret. Can you sit tight when the market goes down? The management fees are usually lower than other types of funds because all the managers do is mirror the S&P500 in their portfolio. Still, they will go up and down, so you need enough ready cash in the bank so you don't have to sell your shares when they are low.

 

[GrayWhale]

Yeah, Mike, that's pretty much my attitude. At our age, going survivalist is, frankly, silly. If chaos comes, we aren't going to weather it by storing canned beets and bullets. We need our diabetes and blood pressure meds to stay healthy.

So true, and not just for older people. Just watch some survivalist show, with the roughest one probably being Naked & Afraid, where 2 survivors are completely naked with just a knife and a firestarter. It's very difficult making a decent shelter, getting water and not even talking about hunting yet. Although this is pretty extreme, but many of these people who signs up are mostly survivalist people and survivalist instructors.

But also, a healthy diet can cure many illnesses. I weigh the same as I did when I was in high school. It wasn't easy and is an ongoing challenge everyday to eat healthy and exercise regularly.

 

[jeanontheroad]

Wolf and I both put on weight as we got older. With him it is genetic. With me it is bad eating habits that I could get away with 40 years ago, but not now. We have both also been losing weight since we hit the road. The small space forces us outside so we are more active. Still, you can't stop the clock.

 

[66788]

So some of my money is safely hidden in a 6 months supply of food, which I doubt anyone would want to steal--yet.
Bob

I have a 90 day supply of emergency food, but it's fairly bulky and there isn't quite room for it in the van. How would one carry 6 months of food in the van? I'm curious how it can be done.

 

[akrvbob]

Remember I live in a converted cargo trailer I tow with an extended van so I have more room than most.

But, it is easier than you think! Here is a post describing my Survival Pantry.
http://www.cheaprvliving.com/blog/poverty-prepping-food-pantry/

Bob

 

[Seraphim]

Hmmm - a lot to comment on.

I enforced Ohio laws for 28 years and there is no law permitting confiscation of a vehicle just for having a hidden compartment. If there is evidence the compartment was used for illegal purposes, such as a dusting of white powder field testing positive for opiates, that's a different matter. Just for having a hidden compartment, no.

There is no legal precedent, or historical illegal occurrence, of the 'the government' arbitrarily grabbing money from the banks. Freezing individual accounts or confiscating assets used or acquired illegally, and seized with a court order - yes.

The value of precious metals is speculative, volatile, and will not hold value in emergency situations: you can't eat it, drink, and the metal is too soft to make a viable tool. Tools which can aid in building shelters and acquiring food will be more valuable than pretty, but worthless, metals.

If the economic situation becomes so bad the banks fail, which has never happened, we're all screwed anyway. The stock market crash of 1929, in itself, was not so terrible - what was terrible is the stock market was relatively new and investors, brokerages and bankers didn't know how to handle the situation when the general populace got frightened and started a run on the banks. Should the same events occur today, there are procedures to handle it, and most investors wouldn't panic, but wait it out.

Reasonable inflation is the sign of a healthy economy and market, and isn't an issue unless individual earnings don't grow at the same rate. Deflation is the bigger problem.

---

The problem is not with the banks losing your money, it's with the dollar itself. Anyone with assets denominated in US dollars is holding a toxic asset.

Hard assets are the only way to preserve wealth. Tools, guns, silver and gold etc. You don't have to believe that this will happen for it to affect you. It's kind of like gravity. Not just a good idea; It's the law!

The US dollar is globally the most stable and least volatile currency - it's the currency the global market is based on, and is considered by foreign investors - governments included - to be the most stable vehicle for investments.

If it gets to the point that tools and guns are the priority, as I said before, we're all screwed anyway and your 90 days of food will prolong your starvation by about 90 days - unless someone more proficient with their guns takes it away from you sooner than that. If it's that bad, the situation's not going improve in 90 days so you're attempting to prolong the inevitable. Mankind will eventually destroy itself eventually, but I doubt in my lifetime; or my son's

---

Thx 66788.
You can get your money "stolen" without even opening the safe door. The loss in purchasing power is due to inflation. (The inflation we don't have according to the government.) There's no need to drive around to the banks and load it all up!

According to government agencies, inflation is currently just beneat 2%. Financial NGOs agree with the assesment.

---

I'm pretty pessimistic for the future, especially for American dollars. Inflation is so much more likely than all the other risks we face and probably more devastating to most of us. That's the thief I'm worried about. 10 years of 10% inflation will solve the government debt problem, but also wipe out your 401Ks and savings accounts. History and common sense say that you can't have this level of government debt without ending up with inflation.

So some of my money is safely hidden in a 6 months supply of food, which I doubt anyone would want to steal--yet. Also in guns, ammo and other survival basics. Also in gold and silver kept off-site. Inflation proof.
Bob

Inflation will not solve the government debt problem - inflated dollars do not go into government coffers. Government debt may lead to an increase in taxes - but that's not inflation. Two completely different animals. Precious metals are far more precarious, for reasons I gave above. When the situation gets that bad, who's going to give you food for a handful of metal with no survival value ?

Common sense is generally not that common, and I'm interested in what historical events you are referring to. Economics is a hobby of mine, and I'd be interested in the specific examples you have in mind.

---

Seems we got off topic lol.

I keep several lock boxes, one 'fireproof' secured in various locations. It would take someone searching a bit of time to find them, and they'd need some heavy duty tools to remove them. They can be welded in place. A heavy chain can be welded to the boxes, and secured around a frame member, or the other part of the chain can be welded to the frame, if necessary.

 

[Seraphim]

If you've only wood to attach a lockbox to, run case hardened bolts through a 2x4, or somesuch, then after tightening the nut, weld the nut to the bolt.

 

[Seraphim]

Land might good, the kind of land that can support you. But gold and silver are not safe. They are risky, volatile investments. In many of the forms that you are allowed to physically keep it (jewelry, coins), you pay way more way than it is worth for it.

In the kind of SHTF situation survivalists worry about, how would you spend it or keep it safe? It may make you a target for violent people who wouldn't bother you, otherwise. It's heavy as hell to drag around. If you try to hide it, anyone with a metal detector can find it. Maybe someone just stumbles across it. You can't eat it or drink it and it uses up too much of your energy.

If you want an inflation-proof investment for some of your money, you are best of with mutual funds that mirror the S&P 500. Yes, they will go up and down. But historically, they have not only beaten inflation , they have also done better than other types of managed funds over time. The secret is time and the iron nerves to sit tight while the market slumps. If you don't have other money and can't afford to sit tight, you can end up in trouble.

+1, in general

Whether you invest in stock funds - such as those based on the S&P500 or Morningstar Total Stock indexes - or on bond funds which track indexes such as the Barclays Aggregate index, depends on whether you are in an accumulation phase or at/near the phase you'll be taking money out of investments. There are blended funds which hold both stocks and bonds in one fund in a fixed ratio - such as Vanguards wellington fund. These are less volatile due to bond holdings and better than pure stock funds if you plan to withdraw money. If you have a long horizon - 10 years or more - before you plan to take any money out, pure stock funds might be fine - but if you need money when the stock market is in a dip or a recession, you're going to lose money at best, and possibly clean out the account faster than planned.

If anyone is really interested, let me know, and I'll start a thread on stocks, bonds, funds and portfolios, though I already posted two excellent educational links on the topic at Vanguard and Morningstar.

Back to the original thread - sorry if I contributed to it being hijacked.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I enforced Ohio laws for 28 years and there is no law permitting confiscation of a vehicle just for having a hidden compartment. If there is evidence the compartment was used for illegal purposes, such as a dusting of white powder field testing positive for opiates, that's a different matter. Just for having a hidden compartment, no.

Man arrested for hidden compartment, no drugs found

More

Reason:
"In addition to fines and prison time, Illinois law and New Jersey’s bill
threaten another penalty: civil asset forfeiture. (Two bills killed in the
Virginia General Assembly this year would have as well.)

With civil forfeiture, police are under no obligation return a seized vehicle if prosecutors decide not to proceed with a criminal case or if the jury decides to acquit. Once police take a vehicle, property owners generally must file a lawsuit to get it back.

Police and prosecutors naturally like this arrangement; they usually get to keep seized vehicles or the profits from auctioning them off. But the process is a nightmare for property owners, who are considered guilty until proven innocent."



Arrested for hidden compartment with two cell phones in it

Pennsylvania:

"Consistent with criminal code associated with other instruments of crime, compartments would only be illegal if there is an 'intent' to use them for a crime. It is unclear if the interpretation would be limited to clear intent, such as a confession, or if mere possession of a secret compartment itself could be interpreted as evidence of intent to use it for other criminal acts. The language appears to leave the questions for officers, prosecutors and juries to decide."

Regards
John

 

[jeanontheroad]

If you really need something, how about something like a fuse box, out in the open, with a few wires running out of it. Put your will and passport and vehicle title in it to establish what it is intended for, and whatever else you feel you want to keep safe. Anyone who keeps too much money where thieves or fire or accident can get it is really taking a risk. Banks may be run by pirates, but they aren't allowed to steal directly out of your safety deposit box and there are rules about what they can take out of your account.

 

[Seraphim]

Man arrested for hidden compartment, no drugs found

More

Reason:
"In addition to fines and prison time, Illinois law and New Jersey’s bill
threaten another penalty: civil asset forfeiture. (Two bills killed in the
Virginia General Assembly this year would have as well.)

With civil forfeiture, police are under no obligation return a seized vehicle if prosecutors decide not to proceed with a criminal case or if the jury decides to acquit. Once police take a vehicle, property owners generally must file a lawsuit to get it back.

Police and prosecutors naturally like this arrangement; they usually get to keep seized vehicles or the profits from auctioning them off. But the process is a nightmare for property owners, who are considered guilty until proven innocent."



Arrested for hidden compartment with two cell phones in it

Pennsylvania:

"Consistent with criminal code associated with other instruments of crime, compartments would only be illegal if there is an 'intent' to use them for a crime. It is unclear if the interpretation would be limited to clear intent, such as a confession, or if mere possession of a secret compartment itself could be interpreted as evidence of intent to use it for other criminal acts. The language appears to leave the questions for officers, prosecutors and juries to decide."

Regards
John

Here's the actual law. Notice the 'intent' section, and notice the original report indicated the overwhelming odor of marijuana.

"To enact section 2923.241 of the Revised Code to prohibit designing, building, constructing, fabricating, modifying, or altering a vehicle to create or add a hidden compartment with the intent to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance, prohibit operating, possessing, or using a vehicle with a hidden compartment with knowledge that the hidden compartment is used or intended to be used to facilitate the unlawful concealment or transportation of a controlled substance, and prohibit a person who has committed a first or second degree felony violation of aggravated trafficking in drugs from operating, possessing, or using a vehicle with a hidden compartment."

Personally, the case sounds weak to me, unless a drug dog medicated a hit on the vehicle. The officers have to prove the intent to use the compartment for illegal purposes, which may be dicey unless there's other info we don't know.

---

In your cell phone case, there was a hit from a drug canine. It seems a stronger case as a search warrant was obtained. As your last quote dictates, it's up to a jury to decide. None of these cases appear to have been adjudicated yet. The juries will eventually determine precedent.

Just having a hidden compartment for legitimate use is not illegal, however.

---

Above, 'medicated' should be 'indicated'

I'm curious if the probable cause hearing on the Ohio case will uphold the officers judgement on probable cause. It's a new law, enacted after my retirement.

---

And again, the tent has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I'll follow the Ohio case.

---

'Intent'

 

[jeanontheroad]

(Sigh) News articles these days often give whatever half of the story that agrees with the organization's political views or is likely to excite their readers. The rest of the story either doesn't get covered at all or gets covered by another organization that emphasizes their point of view.