Here's one for you inverter lovers.

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SternWake

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I been perusing some marine based forums about 12 volt systems and found the knowledge of some posters over there to be truly impressive. So much more so than some other 12v type forums I visit.

This one guy has done a bunch of experiments with all the right tools which show many of the things which I've been trying to relate on this forum for a while, and often concerning inverters, it falls on deaf ears.

Here is one experiment where he measures how many amp hours are consumed when charging an Ipad through a 400 watt inverter, vs using a 12v ciggy plug USB adapter.

If you don't want to read it, the difference is 29%.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/ipad_charge_&page=1

Check out HIS other links which can apply to RV'S. He also has a U tube channel. This one should help people understand battery charging a bit better.



TusconAZ, perhaps you can write him and get him to test a MSW inverter vs an equal wattage/brand PSW on various devices.
 
You know, I did A LOT of research like yourself and since I'm building/fabricating everything from scratch I've opted to go with a 24v system and many marine components as they're built very well. The other thing is, most 24v things like my pump, fans and so on (with the exception of my inverter) will run fine on 12v, I can also use a step down when needed.

I am BEYOND happy I went 24v, wire sizing, efficiency and so on are just far better not to mention the gains from the lower voltage drop. My 24v inverter was also less costly (easy to find good deals on the less common 24v stuff) and runs far smoother. In fact, I have my chest freezer in the house plugged into my RV system via an extension cord just to keep the stem busy and my bank never drops below a true 95% (via shunt and battery monitor).
 
What does have me curious is, he was running a dedicated inverter for this test which is going to be about 80-90% as will the Apple wall wart which works out about to what he say in terms of energy consumption difference. I'm curious if the results would have been the same with an inverter that was larger and already carrying a load. I will agree that DC to AC to DC is a poor idea if you can avoid it I'm just wondering how realistic it would be to charge an iPad by itself with an inverter. My Macbook already needs the 120v and I would just use the USB port on that.
 
Even though I CAN go the 12v route for most things.. why? I've got a surfeit of power coming from my solar and way more than enough battery capacity to not have to worry about the efficiency loss. Also, since some of my stuff doesn't 'play well' with MSW and I require a PSW inverter anyway.. might as well run most stuff off of it. Also, buying a specialty item, like a 12v DC--> 19v DC laptop power supply for my Lenovo, would save me some power, it's something I most probably won't be able to use with my next laptop.. whereas a PSW inverter is near universal.

Another reason I prefer having an inverter is that I can run 120v A/C (and 12v D/C through a converter) 100' or more from my rig.. ain't happening with D/C, especially if one plans to pull an appreciable amount of current. This let's me run such things as my angle grinder, sawzall, Dremel, skookum ghetto blaster, 120v LED light, and a host of other things that I've got lying about.

Still, it's courses for horses, and my setup works well for me. Others? Well, they can/do look at things differently and, ya know what? GREAT!! Can't all be the same, cuz I'm too much of a good thing already! ..Willy.
 
Charging an Ipad,GPS or phone wouldn't require all that much juice anyway, so saving 29% is not such a big deal.

The DC charger for my Nokia phone charges it twice as fast but I wonder if that is a good thing. I usually charge it with the AC charger when I'm at a library anyway.
 
29% adds up. Whether you can afford an extra 29% was not the reason I brought this up. I could chest thump about how much electricity I could waste too.

We have an entire nation seemingly preoccupied with their ability to be afford to be wasteful, and let everybody know. The less deeply you cycle your batteries overnight, then the less the solar has to do the next day, and the batteries will likely last longer, but since you can afford new batteries anyway, why, who cares how long they last?

I laugh at 1.1 amp hours!!!!! I release flatulence in the general direction of 1.1 amp hours!!!

How about a larger load which will likely run for much longer, like a TV? .......But I hate TV!!: it makes no difference to me besides I have more energy than I use and love my inverter so much I take it under the covers with me and we do unspeakable things with each other.... fine.

TV run on 12 volts................................... 3.9 amp draw
Same TV powered by 1200 watt inverter: 5.8 amps
Same TV powered by 400 watt inverter::..5.2 amps

I guess these numbers are inconsequential too.

Time for that washer and dryer too I guess.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/inverter_inefficiency
 
It is easy to drop 12V DC to 5V DC to charge a phone. I have been wondering what loss from 12V DC to 19+V DC for a laptop. To raise DC volts needs to convert to AC then back to DC.


"_you can afford an extra 29%_"
29% of tiny?
:)
 
I'll do a test right now with my 12vDC to 19.5 DC PWR+ laptop car adapter.

My clamp on DC ammeter is jumping back and forth between 2.47 to 1.40 amps on the DC to DC converter.

Through my 400 watt Wagan PSW inverter the numbers are jumping between 3.2 and 2.17 amps

The battery is fully charged. This forum is the only open window.

Seeing as how this dang laptop is my biggest energy hog, this represents a significant battery savings.

I'll stream some video and test again

Okay first the PSW inverter as it is already connected:


3.69 to 2.47amps

then the DC to DC converter, same video,

3.23 to 2.17amps

The numbers on the DC ammeter are jumping around a lot. Those numbers above are just the highest and lowest of the range that I saw.


My dc to dc converter consumes 0.14 amps when plugged into 12v but disconnected from laptop.

My PSW inverter consumes 0.53 amps turned on powering the power brick which is disconnected from the laptop.

The inverter turned on powering nothing consumes 0.31 amps, but rose back upto 0.51 amps in the time it took me to type that sentence.

There is also more room for error due to voltage drop in the laptop tests. My 19v dc converter is at the end of 8 feet ( one way)of 10 awg from the fuse block, where as the inverter only has 18 inches of 6 awg wire to the same Buss the fuse block takes power from. so lower voltage that the DC adapter sees, will read higher amps on the clamp on meter.

Surely more accurate testing could be done. I do not really trust the accuracy of the clamp on meter below 0.5 amps, and the jumping around of the numbers on the laptop consumption, well I have no idea how to average them with the tools I have. The numbers reported are the highest and lowest range I witnessed after looking for 30 seconds.

Hold on I'll turn off the Wifi and check:
Nope it still bounces around, this time on the inverter, with the laptop battery at 90% 4.40 to 5.86amps

The Dc to DC car adapter 3.35 to 4.74 amps.

Again the Dc to Dc converter wins and by a significant percentage.

I'll try and remember to do this test again with a depleted laptop battery where it will be drawing around the 90 watt maximum of both power supplies.

I wish I could easily hook my inverter to run through my GTpower monitor which counts amp hours used over x amount of time, as that would be more accurate as to total consumption than the instant readings of the clamp on meter.

But it is more effort than I am willing to go through.

Perhaps testing the amp draw when the laptop is off, but still charging the laptop battery, will reveal more steady and accurate numbers.

I'll try that and report back.
 
I think this question is on topic, I don't want to hijack your thread.

I waste power in the summer because I'm afraid it may be bad for the batteries to draw too little from them. Is that possible?

I sized my system for a storm in winter when I have my Direct TV reciever and LED TV on quite a bit. Now in the summer with no TV I have a 140 watt solar system with almost no draw on it.

Of course the assumption is the controller (a Blue Sky mppt) won't let the batteries be overcharged, but can it be bad for batteries to never have a draw a real on them for months at a time?
Bob
 
What is harder on the batteries is if they are not cycled nightly, but the solar controller takes them upto 14.x for 2 hours then floats them all day the next day. If they are not cycled nightly then one should reprogram the solar controller, if possible, to do a very short acceptance stage and then go into float.

I put mine at 13.8 and 13.1 when I fly east for the holidays. but when cycled daily I have it set at 14.9 and 15.3v, and the longer it gets to stay at 15.3 the better chance the Specific gravity has to return to the maximum baseline, but this is a peculiar battery requiring ridiculous voltages to return near full charge daily

With a solar excess I have in summertime, I just crank up more fans and the fridge and whatever extra there is does not go into the batteries but is bled off by the solar controller. But shallower cycles at night are still ultimately beneficial to battery life, so you can be wasteful when you have solar excess in the daytime, but come night time, it is better to not have to cycle the battery as deeply and conservation is beneficial, even if you have enough solar to replace the extra amp hours one could consume if they did not care.

I have read that deep cycle batteries should not be cycled less than 5%.

I've also read it is better for the solar panels to have work to perform rather than just having the controller have them go open circuit because the current has nowhere to go.

So make the solar work, but don't make the batteries work harder than they have to, even if you have enough solar to replenish them and some extra too.

how much difference in battery life or solar panel life this actually makes is something I cannot quantify. but batteries not cycled should have their solar charging voltages lowered, compared to batteries which are cycled nightly.
 
As usual, thanks so much Sternwake!! Without any evidence that is basically what I have been assuming and during the day I look for ways to waste power and then at night shut off everything that isn't a total necessity.

Of course in winter that is no longer true and I generally conserve every amp I can wherever I can.
Bob
 
Okay, I drained my laptop battery until it read 22%, and I shutdown the laptop. Not standby or hibernate but shut down.

I plugged in the 12vDC to 19.5v DC to DC converter/ car adapter in to the laptop, placed the clamp on Ammeter next to the wires, zerod it, then clamped it over the (+) line and it read a Steady 3.31 amps.

I then turned the meter's dial so as to read voltage, and probed the Anderson connector feeding the DC to DC converter and read 11.92 volts.

11.92v x 3.31a = 39.45 Watts to charge the laptop battery with the laptop OFF.

So I unplug the DC to DC converter and turn on my Wagan 400 watt PSW inverter which has only the original power transformer/brick plugged into it, put the clamp on meter right next to the Inverter cabling, Zero the meter, then clamp the meter over the (+) wire and it reads a steady 4.02 amps. I then probe the thumb screws on the back of the inverter. 12.35 volts.

4.02 amps x 12.35 volts = 49.64 Watts, to charge the laptop battery, laptop OFF.

Now this laptop battery is old and only at half capacity or so, but over a full charge cycle that 10+ watt difference can make a good sized dent in the Lead acid battery's capacity.

So no doubt, the DC to DC adapter uses significantly less electricity to both power the laptop, and to just charge the battery, than the inverter does to power the original power brick and accomplish the same task.

Now I'll do the same test while the laptop is on, only window open task running, is this forum.
DC car adapter
Laptop battery is now reading 48%
6.86 to 5.94amps at 11.59 to 11.72 volts

79.51 to 69.61 watt range


Laptop battery reading 53%
400 watt PSW inverter
7.67 to 6.34 at 12.31v,

94.42 to 78.05 watt range.

So it holds true, the Inverter uses about 10 more watts on average than the DC to DC car adapter when performing the same tasks.

This is hardly insignificant, even if you have a solar surplus.

My compressor fridge consumes about 1 A/h per hour, usually less.
1a x 12.6v = 12.6 watts,

So basically the inverter powering the laptop, compared to the DC to DC adapter, uses nearly as much extra energy as my fridge requires during that same hour.

Now some might ask why the input voltage was less on my DC car adapter. It is much further away from the batteries over 10 awg, and on that same 10 awg feed, but not being read my the meter, amp wise, are a few LED lights and a muffin fan on a medium slow speed, which is adding to the voltage drop on this circuit.

The inverter is much closer to the batteries circuit wise, over heavier cable. My battery voltage is only about 12.4 at the time of the test as today is hot humid cloudy and drizzly and I have been lazy inside on this dang laptop with all my fans and TV running, so no solar surplus today.

Often we get on this forum, people with no secondary battery system, who ask what size inverter they need to charge their cell phone and laptop, when the answer is that they do not need an inverter for these tasks. In fact, for less money, they can get a car adapter for their laptop(most likely), AND a USB charger for Ipad or cell phone for less money, and they will use less energy to both power these devices, as well as to charge them. Most never think that they can actually charge USB devices from a laptop USB port too, negating the need for a Ciggy plug usb adapter.

For these people with little concept of how little energy a battery actually stores, how much devices draw, and who do not have an alternate method to jump start the vehicle or secondary battery, these DC to DC power supplies can mean the difference between a vehicle which starts and one which does not, and I believe that informing such people of this less expensive and more efficient option should be among the first responses given.

In addition, with DC to DC adapters, there is no risk of a MSW inverter causing issues to the provided transformers usually provided with the device, though admittedly this risk is slight. If they don't want to risk it and want a PSW inverter, well add some $$$.xx to the price tag of accomplishing that goal.

Now if somebody already owns an inverter, then there is no Need to get a DC to DC adapter, unless one is trying to save all the battery power they can. If one is not concerned about battery consumption, then do not waste money on a DC to DC adapter.

I could in theory use my 800 watt MSW inverter to do these same tests but the results would be even more in favor of the DC to DC adapter. Besides that inverter's fan noise is the annoying, and runs full speed all the time and was a primary motivation of why I sought a better path to power DC devices.

On the topic of car adapters for laptops, well those pulling 60+ watts often will reveal that the ciggy plug/ receptacle, while a convenient connector, is a very Substandard connector and Will fail at some point. Better Ciggy plug receptacles and plugs themselves exist, and these receptacles should be wired with fatter wiring than comes stock in most vehicles.

Improving the Ciggy plug and receptacle can be well beyond the skills of many who visit these forums, but the ciggy plugs themselves are likely responsible for any bad reviews given to a laptop "car adapter".

I have cut off the Ciggy plug receptacle on my car adapter and use a 30 amp Anderson powerpole connector and have no issues anymore with my car adapter. But the stock ciggy plug wore out, and so did its replacement.

Do note that an inverter designed to plug into a ciggy plug receptacle will have the same issue with the plug or receptacle. It is really a poor design for a convenient connector. It heats up and wastes power even when it is working as designed. I limit their use to devices which cannot draw more than about 4 amps.

Those seeking to eliminate all wasted power in their rides, should consider eliminating them, especially on devices which can draw more than 40 to 50 watts.
 
Here's my only issue with this, the inverter will use power no matter what while running so it isn't a "fair" comparison in a situation where you're inverter is running no matter what. I intentionally have a higher AC load, I find energy star items to be more efficient than their DC counterparts and since I use many home items in my unit I chose to go with AC and DC about 50/50 though I'd initially planned to go DC exclusively. So, when you remove the draw of the inverter by itself, what do the number look like? In other words, while my inverter is already going, how much less efficient am I by adding an ipad charger to the mix?
 
TAZ, I do not have the tools required to test for your specific scenario, and if I did, and results showed that the inverter still used a measurable and significant percentage more juice than a dc to dc converter to charge or power any given device, you could dismiss it because of your 24 volt system, or for some other reason like you have electricity to spare so it does not make a difference anyway, or the amount of savings is so little as to be immaterial to your significant battery bank and to use Zil's analogy, would be like herding cats.

Besides this is largely immaterial to your system as they do not make these plug and play dc to dc converters with 24 volt input for laptops or USB power ports, so you are stuck using an inverter, unless you also have a separate setup for delivery of 12 nominal volts DC, which will discharge your batteries within your 24v bank at different rates and introduce more issues. Obviously there are many different ways to do this, lets not go offtrack by discussing your very particular system in this thread.

People who want to use the least amount of electricity to charge their laptop or smart phone, and want a simple plug and play solution to powering a USB device or a laptop, will simply use less electricity and likely spend less money by getting dedicated plug in DC to Dc converters as opposed to acquiring an inverter just for these duties. If they require an inverter to power other things, well that is another story, but the basic demands seem to be these laptops, tablets and smartphones, and firing up an inverter, solely to power a 120v USB transformer that came with their phone, is simply a waste of electrons, no matter how one wants to justify it.

While my 400 watt PSW inverter shows a standby current of 0.3 to 0.5 amps the tests show the DC to DC converter used 0.7 to 1.1 amps less to power and/or charge the same device. Subtract the inverter standby current from the total current used, and the DC to DC converter still comes out ahead, and if the device is use a lot/often, the savings are measurable and significant, especially with small battery banks or for those without a house/leisure/Auxiliary battery.



The Only thing I do not like about my DC to DC laptop converter, is that it knocks out TV Channel 8, where as the inverter powering the original transformer, knocks out channel 11 and leaves 8 untouched, which I do not watch as much anyway.

Also the provided convenient ciggy plug/receptacles are junk and will fail when asked to pass more than 60 watts on a regular basis. My inverter came with a Ciggy plug as well as the 8 awg cables, and a warning to not try and use the ciggy plug on devices that draw more than 100 watts with a disclaimer that even lesser wattage devices might not work properly through included ciggy plug due to substandard vehicular wiring.
 
SternWake said:
While my 400 watt PSW inverter shows a standby current of 0.3 to 0.5 amps the tests show the DC to DC converter used 0.7 to 1.1 amps less to power and/or charge the same device. Subtract the inverter standby current from the total current used, and the DC to DC converter still comes out ahead, and if the device is use a lot/often, the savings are measurable and significant, especially with small battery banks or for those without a house/leisure/Auxiliary battery.

This is all that I was curious about, nobody would debate that converting anything comes with some sort of a loss I was just curious for a fair comparison in a situation where the inverter is already powering things versus a situation where somebody is plugging in a 400w inverter to charge their iPad all by itself.
 
First let me thank you for all that experimenting and providing the information. Thank you Sternwake.
Tucsonaz, The devices that use USB charging, that is 5 volt DC, are better charged with the little 12 volt USB converter.
Lap tops and such are charged at 19+ volts DC. By the above research a PSW 400 watt inverter through the charging transformer uses less than 1 amp more than the dedicated 60 watt inverter directly to the lap top. However the standard PSW inverter will have many more uses than the dedicated inverter plug. I wounder if the PSW inverter / powerbrick charging will restore the lap top battery quicker than the dedicated 60W inverter. I know my phone, 5 volt USB, charges faster plugged into my battery jumper pack USB feed than if I plug it into the side of my computer.
So yes. The 60 watt inverter uses a bit less power than the 400 watt inverter. The 60W is not likely to be a PSW in the DC-AC-DC part. as transformer does not need PSW. The power brick should be fine on a MSW inverter. But like S/W I prefer PSW.
Again thank you for all the research.
 
My laptop DC to DC converter is a 90 watt model, same as the 120v power adapter provided with the laptop, so the laptop should charge at the same rate, and i can notice no difference between the 2 power supplies, but I have not timed them either.

Sometimes I do not plug in the barrel connector all the way into the laptop, and a window will pop up on the screen saying the adapter plugged in is not a 90 watt rated adapter and the battery will not charge. However it will power the laptop, and the little charging icon will say plugged in, not charging. When I push the barrel connector in that last 8 MM the screen goes out and charging begins. This will occur with either power supply, the dc to dc or the AC to DC

My Samsung Smartphone was boxed with a USB power supply capable of 1 amp at 5 volts. Many laptop USB ports are capable of only 0.5 amps at 5 volts. Devices plugged into 0.5/ 500 mah USB ports will not charge at the full rate.

Similarly the Ipad requires a 2.1 amp usb port. It will still charge on lesser USB ports, just much slower.

My 12v USB adapter has 2 ports. 1 port rated at 1 amp, the other is 2.1 amps. I have no usb devices capable of asking for 2,1 amps and my Samsung s4 mini charges fine plugged into either USB port.

It also charges fine in a 500mah USB port, however the charging rate slows significantly. Lithium batteries in general, want higher charging rates so if the device wants 1 or 2.1 amps, then make sure the USB port can provide it.

I can recommend this product, I have 2 of them, one in back, one up front by the driver's seat:

http://www.amazon.com/TopG-Apple-Ce...id=1407175636&sr=1-5&keywords=usb+car+adapter

Very little parasitic draw. I have the receptacle switched but pretty much leave it on all day long. Further electrical savings here over one who uses an inverter exclusively for this task and does not monitor when the device being charged reaches 100%, then shuts off the inverter.

I see that some of these usb adapters are claiming 3.1 amps through one USB port. Perhaps some other Tablets out there are needing/requesting even higher charging rates.

There is no danger of having a USB port rated to deliver more than the device can ask for, and having a USB port not capable of meeting the devices demands will have the device charged at a reduced rate, or perhaps not at all.
 
What drives me a little nuts is my new Samsung Galaxy Note 3 phone which comes with the new style USB 3.0 charging cable. The tip of the charging cable is completely different in design versus the USB 2.0 style.

A new USB 3.0 charging cable supposedly charges a bit faster versus a USB 2.0 cable, but the speed difference is more-so in the data transfer rate which is faster for the 3.0 cable. Fortunately, I can still use all my old style USB 2.0 cables to charge my Note 3 smartphone. But a 3.0 USB cable is not backward compatible with say my older Note 2 phone. Annoying.

Yes, a tablet will charge even if an adapter is not putting out 2.1 amps which is usually what most tablets require. It will just take much longer, but eventually the tablet will be fully charged.

Many of the charging adapters nowadays with two or more outlets usually have an indication for Apple products and "NA" for Non-Apple products. Simply try both outlets for your tablet (or device) and see which one gives your device the "thunderbolt" icon to indicate proper charging. Usually one outlet will charge properly while the other won't.
 
I own no apple products so can't say, and am not familiar with USB 3.0 either. The USB adapter i posted a link to above has the i product capability listed in its description, and works fine on my android. perhaps many devices for android will not work properly on Apple products. I can't say, but those with Apple products should get something claiming it works with Apple.

I am not sure how the DC to DC converters step up 12.xx volts to 19.x volts for the laptop but I don't believe they are miniature inverters doing a dc to ac to dc conversion within them. I'll ask a electronics person i correspond with about this and report back.

this wiki article on the subjext of dc to dc converters does not put it in plain enough english for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC-to-DC_converter
 
The only way to step up voltage is to use ac with a transformer. Might be tiny but it is there.
 

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