Having big problems with my brand new solar setup, could really use some help

[pkb4112]

Hi everyone, 

 I've just started dwelling full time in an Astro, and I need to work on my laptop a lot for my photography work so I invested in a solar setup for my van. It is set up exactly  as shown below, and note the batteries are flooded lead acid rated at 215Ah:

 

Now, when I first hooked everything up about a week ago, I just assumed it was fine. The charge controller would read 13.7 volts on the batteries which is the float voltage parameter on the charge controller. If I ran the fan or lights, the voltage would drop a bit, seemed normal. 

Now today, I realized very quickly that something is very wrong. Today the van was in full sun, and I was sitting in the Lowe's parking lot working on my laptop. It was low on charge, so I plugged it into the inverter. It worked for a few hours, and I kept working as normal. I moved spots to a nice dirt pullout up here in New Hampshire, and hung out for a while to do some more work. The charge controller still showed 13.7 volts. I plugged in the inverter to charge my laptop, and turned on the fan. Not 5 minutes later, the fan shuts off. I thought "That's weird". And when I looked over, the charge controller was reading 12.3 volts and had turned off to protect the battery from draining too low. So I turn off the inverter, and the battery voltage goes back up to 13.6/13.7 within 5 minutes.  At this point I'm concerned, but it didn't stop there. I drive again to a new spot down the road, and just let the batteries charge as I drive. When I park, I hear this weird noise. The batteries are gurgling and when I put my ear near them I could hear intense bubbling. The charge controller still shows 13.7 volts, and says it is only drawing 1.1 A from the panels. 

I unplugged the solar panels from the charge controller immediately, and after 20 minutes or so the bubbling settled down, and the battery voltage read 12.9 volts. One more time, I tried to turn on the inverter, and just like the last time, it drained the batteries from 12.9 to 12.3 within 5 minutes. I was holding a voltmeter onto the battery terminals literally watching the values drop second by second. As soon as I turned off the inverter, the voltage rebounded back up to 12.8.  

Are the batteries toast? I bought them literally a month ago from Batteries plus Bulbs, I don't see how they could be bad already? I stored them properly, and the water level has been perfect since I bought them. 

Can anyone help? I'm at a loss for what to do, but my budget is very limited and I don't think I can afford to replace the batteries if they're already dead.

 

[gapper2]

Hi PKB4112,
   I'm a newbie at this stuff also but I know you will at least need a hydrometer to test the specific gravity to get a true health condition for your battery.  I know you have other problems also and someone more knowledgeable will be here shortly.  Good luck.

 

[BradKW]

Yeah, you definitely need to pick up a hydrometer to see what your battery state of charge actually is...both the "green light" and voltages are very inaccurate.

[img=300x200]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q34AW3f9L._SL1500_.jpg[/img]

OTC 4619 Professional Battery Hydrometer

It might also be helpful if you could link the inverter and the batteries.

Sounds possible that you're draining the battery but not seeing it because the solar input bounces the voltage back up. It can also take well over 24 hours after stopping all charging for batteries to come to rest at an accurate voltage...I've seen my large L16 bank still not read accurate voltage after 48 hours resting.

If you spend a lot of time on the PC, it's likely that you're unaware of just how much juice is getting used. Pick up a Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor to find out.

Also handy is a battery monitor ...linked one is highly thought of but not the only choice.

 

[rvwandering]

Welcome to the CRVL forums pkb4112!

To help you learn the ins and outs of these forums, this "Tips & Tricks" post lists some helpful information to get you started. We look forward to hearing more from you.

 

[user 37446]

Disclaimer - I don't have a solar system yet, however, what you've described definitely doesn't sound good. The battery heath (cell specific gravity) can be easily determined from a good quality hydrometer. You said that funds were limited so start with the cheap fix or check!

Voltage drop could be your laptop yet, so do what many others have spoken of and find a 12v power source for your laptop. I dont have the post info at my fingertips but try searching with your laptop brand and type and include 12v power adapter or words to that affect.

You may have a defective inverter, though that's not normal.  I'm more concerned with your controller, could it be sending too high voltage to your batteries, which is boiling the fluids?  Did you feel the battery cases for temperature?

Those are my uneducated first thoughts. Pay attention to SternWake, Optimistic Paranoid, High Desert Ranger, jimindenver (though I haven't seen much from him recently) Spaceman Spiff, Cyndi, and several others who have their systems well tuned...

Please let us know what you found and give us the brand names and model numbers of the equipment.

By the way, your diagram looked fabulous! 

 

[John61CT]

Yes, there is no need to run your laptop from an inverter; true for any device that runs natively on DC with a power brick that converts from shore power.

Get a "car adapter" designed for that model laptop, or figure out the voltage, polarity and plug size to be able to use a better outlet type than a ciggie port.

That will be much more efficient, and maybe you don't actually need the inverter at all.

Beyond that, don't trust the controller's volts readout, check with a DMM at the battery terminals.

The gurgling is normal when charging with high amps, especially the later stages.

But you don't want voltage to be over what the battery mfg specs, or you'll need to top up with distilled water more frequently. You are checking levels right?

And yes use the hydrometer to ensure you're fully charging them to 100% as often as possible, and don't discharge them below 50%.

 

[jonyjoe303]

At the expedition portal forum, someone had a very similar problem like yours "agm overcharging" is the thread, he had a bad battery. He had all the symptoms you encounter. The gurgling is usually encountered during charging when voltage is too high (over 15 volts) or the battery has a bad cell.

At 13.7 volts your not charging your battery.  And when you put a load on your battery and the voltage drops too quickly thats not a good sign. Once your battery reaches float voltage, it means its fully charge, and it should maintain a load. 

215 amps Is a large battery. How much do you drain them? For instance in the morning what is there voltage? it should be around 12.1 or higher, if you took them below 11.5 volts on a regular basis, that could damage them. 

What is the the max amps that both of your panels produce when the sun is overhead? With 260 watts you should be getting over 15 amps. That's what I get with my 240 watt panel. If all your seeing is 5 amps or less, your battery isn't getting enough amps for a proper charge, and that will damage a lead acid battery because it never gets a full charge.  

 

[jonsun]

you're charge voltage is way too low. that is why you cannot really use a cheap charge controller that doesnt allow you to set the absorption voltage. batteries need to see at least 14.8v until they are very close to full. So you're batteries are never actually getting charged and stand the chance of being bad now.

 

[tbair]

you're charge voltage is way too low. that is why you cannot really use a cheap charge controller that doesnt allow you to set the absorption voltage. batteries need to see at least 14.8v until they are very close to full. So you're batteries are never actually getting charged and stand the chance of being bad now.

I think the P30L has user adjustable setpoints. Manual says yes anyway so it should be possible to adjust, I have one that I use for my helper panel so let me know if you have trouble figuring it out I can try as well. Been  a while since I played with it and I don't really like it so may or may  not be able to provide much help but I can try. 

I agree with the other postings about switching to 12v charger for your laptop, that will make a big difference, you should also check your SG and water levels as suggested above. You might also put a real voltmeter on the batteries as my P30L reads several tenths of a volt different than real voltage, as I said not a big fan of it but it is a helper setup for an additional panel and only used intermittently.

 

[gapper2]

pdk4112,

      Way too early to give up on those new batteries yet IMHO.  I have witnessed some grossly abused batteries be given a new lease on life by following a few suggestions by some of the great advice given by a few members here.


   I know you said you are on a limited budget but I think you will need a few more tools to help troubleshoot and keep your system running properly.

1.  The hydrometer listed above will serve you well.
2.  you will need a way to measure amperage.  If your multimeter does not measure dc current,  here is one that will.  I just bought one for my brother and I was impressed by its quality.   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00O1Q2HOQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and it's inexpensive..

3. If you can go visit a friend that has shore power and a good charger or converter you stand a good chance of bringing the batteries back hopefully.

However you do have problems you will need to troubleshoot.   I see you have a 5000 Watt inverter.  I hope you don't leave it running all the time.  They are inefficient and I can't imagine what amperage yours draws while it's on.  A good clamp-on dc amp reading will show you as the one I've linked to.

Also your notebook will probably fun fine with the ciggy adapter as mentioned above.

And yes as bardo mentioned, If your solar controller is only putting out ~13.6 volts well good luck.  That is more than likely just a float voltage which is not needed until a 100% charge is strived for.

Lots of good posts on here on how to take care of your batteries.  Provide more info on your inverter and laptop and with a little work and more info you will be back to your photography.  Hope this helps.  Introduce yourself over in newcomers and WE LOVE PHOTOS.  

 

[pkb4112]

Hi all, 

Thanks for the replies. A few things to help narrow down my issue. 

First, there is no 12v adapter available for my laptop. Believe me, I looked everywhere, the plug seems to be proprietary for my model of laptop. 

Second, the inverter is 500W, not 5000. 

The issue isn't the load I'm putting on the system. Lights/fan/laptop, that's all im trying to run and it's well within the capability of my system if it was working properly. It just doesn't seem to be charging correctly. Again today, the charge controller shows 13.8 volts (the only use controlled parameter on the controller, referred to there as the "PV off" voltage). But then tonight, I turned on my lights, fan, and phone. NO laptop at all, and somehow that brought the batteries down to 12.2 volts in under 2 hours. See what I mean? Something is up. I have a feeling the batteries aren't getting sufficient current to charge, and I think the charge controller is to blame.

 

[highdesertranger]

13.8 is to low the batteries will never get fully charged if that's the highest voltage they see. do you have the jumper installed for gel batteries? have you ever disconnected the batteries when the panels were hooked up? highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

First, there is no 12v adapter available for my laptop. Believe me, I looked everywhere, the plug seems to be proprietary for my model of laptop.

99.9% sure that's false, take close measurements and pictures I'll find you Amazon/eBay links to rig your own from "universal" adapters and tip collections.

The issue isn't the load I'm putting on the system. Lights/fan/laptop, that's all im trying to run and it's well within the capability of my system if it was working properly. It just doesn't seem to be charging correctly. Again today, the charge controller shows 13.8 volts (the only use controlled parameter on the controller, referred to there as the "PV off" voltage). But then tonight, I turned on my lights, fan, and phone. NO laptop at all, and somehow that brought the batteries down to 12.2 volts in under 2 hours. See what I mean? Something is up. I have a feeling the batteries aren't getting sufficient current to charge, and I think the charge controller is to blame.

Yes, you're likely right, not saying getting rid of (your need for) the inverter will solve your immediate problem, but it will help your situation long-term.


>> Beyond that, don't trust the controller's volts readout, check with a DMM at the battery terminals.

The gurgling is normal when charging with high amps, especially the later stages.

But you don't want voltage to be over what the battery mfg specs, or you'll need to top up with distilled water more frequently. You are checking levels right?

And yes use the hydrometer to ensure you're fully charging them to 100% as often as possible, and don't discharge them below 50%.

 

[galladanb]

Perhaps one of you could link the section that would show this person how to
"... use the hydrometer to ensure you're fully charged to 100%..."

And how to determine when the batteries are about to be at, say, 65% or lower?

That would greatly helpful by other readers and even myself!

Such Fun!!!

 

[John61CT]

https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrometer+site:www.cheaprvliving.com

 

[Trebor English]

Try this.  Set your "pv off" parameter to 14.2 and check the battery voltage.  If it goes up from 13.8 toward 14.2 then you will get much more charging.  See if that helps.  Be warned, the gurgling might increase.  Lead acid batteries do that.  

Use a hydrometer.  With a hydrometer you know what is going on.  Corollary, without a hydrometer you don't know what is going on.  Don't get the kind with 3 plastic balls.  Get the kind with a small glass tube inside a large glass tube.  Write down your measurements, cells in the same order, with date and time and battery voltage.  You might have to wait 2 days to get it from amazon.  Auto Zone and Harbor Freight don't have them on their web page.

You are not overcharging unless the specific gravity is over 1.275 and you contiue putting 10 amps into the battery.  Overcharging is not likely to cause the battery voltage to sag and the inverter cut out.

It doesn't matter to the battery what you call it.  The voltage applied to cause charging affects the rate of charge.  The battery manufacturer does not specify "Windy Nation PV off" setting.  You see it is charging at only 13.8 volts at the battery.   You see  that it is not enough.  Give the battery more.

If the 14.2 suggestion works, try 14.4.  Use the hydrometer.  Add distilled water if the fluid level is low.  Before charging make sure plates are covered.  Add distilled water if necessary.  After charging fill to the correct level.  It expands.  Do not fill to the top.  Batteries use water.  The gurgling is bubbles of disassembled water molecules.  If the level has been low enough to expose the plates in any cell then the probability of success plummets.

 

[Weight]

I seem to have lost my reply. Try again. From East Penn support; Duracell GC2 batteries should charge at 14.64 volts when configured for 12 volts. I set my solar controller at 14.7 volts as the panels do not have that many amps. I haven't noticed my batteries making any noise during normal charging. Use a millimeter at the battery terminals and check the real voltage when in the sun. I would want to check the controller.

 

[jonsun]

that controller says you can adjust float voltage. does that mean absorption voltage? usually that means two different things.

personally I would just breakdown and by a real controller. Just eliminate one more weak link.

 

[SternWake]

Seeing a voltage, but not knowing how many charging amps are flowing at that voltage is misleading, especially to those who believe that voltage directly eqates to state of charge.


A well depleted battery might require 80 amps to instantly be brought upto 14.4v.  The charging source/solar controller should be  seeking ~14.4, but only getting 3 solar amps will only see low 13 volts.

IF the charging source only seeks 13.8v, then there is a problem.  Mid 14's is required for a period of time
If the solar can only get the batteries to 13.8v, then there is not enough solar wattage to handle the load and charge the batteries.

If one only looks at a voltmeter then one is partially blind.  When one can seeHow many amps are flowing at that voltage, then one can see and make educated guesses as to stste of charge and whether their chargong sources can do what they seek, or more charging is required.

Seek and hold 14.4v+ daily. If one's system can't achieve this then one should not expect much life from their batteries.

The voltage will rise as the battery charges.  A solar controller is seeking to attain, then limit voltage so as to not go above a safe 14.4 to 14.8v. All charging sources are applying X amount of amperage to get a battery to absorption voltage and then go no higher.

Anything less than its absorption voltage setpoint means the amperage is not sufficient to get the battery to absorption voltage, OR it has already been at absorption voltage as long as it was programmed to be held and has dropped to float voltage.

Voltage does not equal state of charge, except on a well rested battery, one that has not seen charging nor discharging for many hours.

When one sees voltages above 12.8v, but does not know how many amps are flowing at that voltage, they are blind, as to state of charge of their battery, and the efficacy of their charging system.  A hydrometer could give indications, but seeing a pair of GC-2s at 14.4v accepting 20 amps one can see the batteries are nowhere near fully charged, but accepting 2 amps at 14.4v one can see they are, or very close to fully charged.  2 amps applied to 80% charged battery will only have voltage in the mid 13's.  more amps are then required to raise battery voltage to 14.4+.  no more amps available?  expect voltage to only slowly climb and that when the sun goes down the batteries will be far from fully charged.  A couple days of this an the batteries are punch drunk, overdepleted and crying for a full charge.

If they don;t get it, they soon croak.

Get and watch an ammeter

 

[jonsun]

ok so I went through the whole manual. the only adjustable parameters it talks about are the low and high voltage disconnect. also stop using the load function at the controller altogether. According to the manual it does all sorts of funky disconnecting. Just run everything off the battery terminals.

http://www.windynation.com/cm/P30L Controller Manual_R1.pdf