Finally pulled the trigger on my solar system!

[SternWake]

UB batteries are usually the batteries found in jumper packs, but in the 12 to 18AH variety. I had one perform OK in a jumperpack in the early 2000's and this was before I knew much about batteries. In reality it survived a lot of abuse or remaining in a discharged state and recharging only on the crappy provided wall wart transformer. Even after it lost the ability to jumpstart a vehicle with a weak depleted battery, it still had usable capacity to run computer fans and lights.

SLA does not necessarily mean AGM or Gel, but in the case of the linked battery it is an AGM.

Being one of those AGMS which list a 30% maximum current, I'd have to think it is better suited to a solar only recharge.
But I have no data and cannot definitively say yeah or Nay as i have no data, nor any personal experience with their larger AGM's.

Deka/East Penn makes an Intimidator line of AGM relabelled and sold as duracell at Sams club or Costco. I'd definitely chose Deka over UB, and the price is close, and the stock likely much fresher, and it is a USA made battery.

My concerns with these UB batteries sold online is one does not know how old they are. These UB batteries are Asia's cheapest. They do not have the ultra low self discharge of the high$$ AGM's and the Slow boat from China effect along with being on a shelf somewhere until purchased online, well, one might get a battery older than the Northstar. No way to know. Roll the dice, or not. Your call.

Your first battery should be considered a learner battery. Most newbies destroy their first batteries, but most also choose to remain ignorant of what a battery requires to live a respectable lifespan.

As far as posts disappearing on this site, to me it seems related to the quoting feature.

The quick reply box below seems to work best, but if I have to sign in to reply, then the quote automatically shows up in the reply, and deleting it seems to be related to most of my posts disappearing and the ensuing curse fest.

Also the backspace button. if I somehow click outside the dialog box or press the magic unknown key which does so, and hit the backspace button the browser goes back to the last page. Clicking forward again reveals all my efforts at typing are gone, and a vehement curse fest begins. That is more the fault of my browser and laptop but it also seems to occur when typing replies on this site more than any other. In fact I can't remember it happening on any other.

 

[BigT]

I hate this!  I had a reply written, and the site wouldn't post it!  
SW...  How would that battery you last linked to perform with a 300 Watt panel?  http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pow...09812&sr=1-1&keywords=Universal+Battery+100AH
SLA would suggest that it doesn't need to be vented to the outside.  Is this correct?  
I'll "coin" my last reply..
- 5 to 38 Ah per night average.
- I'm OK with running the alternator.
- I just looked and don't have a flat, unobstructed place in the van to mount a vent.  The van is tiny and has no open wall space.  
- I'm going to return the 190 Watt panel and pick up a 300 Watt panel this week.  To heck with the cost!

Indecisive. Yup, that's me. I drive people crazy and eventually they stop wanting to help me. It's a curse.

 

[BigT]

Oh wait, the SLA on your Amazon link states it's an AGM.  I thought SLA and AGM were two different animals.  
I guess I don't have to ask you how it will work out with a 300 Watt panel.     Badly.

Yup. Your experiences with this site and it's annoying habit of deleting posts is exactly my experience. It doesn't happen anywhere else.

Thanks for the suggestion of the Intimidator line. I don't have a Costco membership, but I know someone who does and will take a look.

 

[SternWake]

SLA= sealed lead acid.


There are some flooded sealed lead acid batteries, usually sold as 'maintenance free'.

Many people assume these are AGM or Gel batteries and they found the exception to the rule for a great price.

These sealed flooded batteries however are very poor in deep cycle service.  Basically they are starting batteries.  They have added calcium to the plate formulations and as such they use less water when charging at the voltages normally seen in vehicles.

Basically the manufacturer expect the battery to fail before it ever needs watering, and their marketing of maintenance free will appeal to those for whom maintenance is a 4 letter word, and will pay extra for the privilege to not need to ever think about it.  

Sometimes on this forum people will find a maintenance free flooded battery, see it is much cheaper than an AGM, see that it is sealed, and that all their offgassing concerns are negated.

Sealed flooded batteries in a deep cycle application are pretty much the worst choice available.

Really, with 300 watts of Solar, on a single AGM battery, at 38AH maximum overnight draw, your battery life would exceed most peoples.

Perfect, no.  Ideal, no.  Die in a week,  hardly.  I'd just say to not use a Northstar, Odyssey, or Lifeline AGM on a Solar only application without ever introducing a higher amp charging source. 

Longer times at Absorption voltage, regular employment of higher amp charging sources can negate or significantly reduce all your trepidation at achieving less than ideal.  Anybody reading this thread that 300 watts is not enough for a single group27 or 31 AGM is going to be misled.  There are just a whole bunch of asterix's involved, as you are seeking a basically unachievable ideal.  Most are seeking adequate, and 300 watts in a sunny environment on a single group27 is more than adequate even if cycled to 50% nightly.  There will be a power surplus basically. 8 days out of 10.

Nothing is ever Ideal.  Achieving ideal costs more in time effort and stress than accepting less than ideal and some degree less of battery longevity.

Heck man, draw a line somewhere and stick to it

Ok here it is.

 300 watts of Solar applied to fresh A Deka group 31 Intimidator series battery is ideal in your situation.
Wiring the alternator  to assist charging, makes it even more ideal.

Having a 25 amp charging source available  to very occasionally plug into the grid when the battery is at its most depleted makes it chest pounding, top of mountain proclaiming:
" I have the best, Absolutely the most IDEAL off grid battery system in the world, Bwahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thump chest like Silverback Gorilla who just did a line of Walter White's Meth, and repeat over and over even louder until vocal cords rupture.

Level of Ideal.

 

[akrvbob]

I'd get the 300 watt panel and the Trojan j150 and set it on the floor of the passenger seat and just open the door or window every so often to vent it. At the low voltage of solar they will rarely vent and if they do it will be no big deal.

The risk from wet flooded batteries is very overated when charged solely from solar.

However, if you have breathing issues it MUST be an AGM.

My Full River AGM golf carts have been in storage with my trailer for the last 3 months, but when I last used them in April, they were working like the day I bought them 3 years ago.

One reason I went with them is they have a very long warranty, 3 years replacement and 7 years pro-rated. I have the recieipt and there are several dealers in Quartzsite. If they start to fail, I'll trade them in.

That's better than the warranty on the Lifeline.
Bob

 

[SternWake]

To get a flooded battery fully charged, it has to offgass. Solar might get a battery to gassing voltages slower than a higher rate charger, but the offgassing is still a requirement, as fully charging is a requirement for longevity, and therefore offgassing.

The whole solar does not cause offgassing is erroneous. It will be a lesser overall amount than a higher amp charging source forcing the battery to accept current at its limits, but it will still offgass. It has to.

Solar is not some magical charging source which greatly limits offgassing, unless the solar wattage is inadequate to fully charge the battery.

Whether this is measurable/ noticeable difference is certainly up for debate, but to say it does not happen or that the overall amount is significantly less, is not true.

Full River batteries is a subsidiary of Roll's Surrette who are the absolute top dog flooded deep cycle battery purveyor. I think they are a great battery despite their country of origin, which is China.

Since you stated you are now cycling Trojan t-105's, I thought perhaps you had replaced them, and since one does not replace fully functional batteries, I thought they had perhaps failed.

 

[akrvbob]

Of course you are right, they do offgas, it's just such a low risk of doing any real harm I consider it a non issue. At least in my 13 years of having flooded lead acid in my vehicle it has been.

The Full River are in my cargo trailer which I've left in storage this summer while I travel in the van. They are charged by 190 watts of solar on the roof of the trailer.

In my van I have two complete systems.

1) a 240 watt panel feeding two Crown golf carts
2) a 140 watt panel feeding two T105s

The batteries are a year apart in age so they are only connected to each other through an On-Off switch. I connect them together to use the microwave.

 

[BigT]

Well, it sounds to me like you're going to arrive at your campsite with a fully charged house battery.  Then, while you're parked, you will be totally dependent on the solar panels to replace the 40 ah you use every night.  If the panel is putting out 10 amps in bright sun, it should easily cover that.  You will not be able to park under trees for shade, of course, and ideally you will need to park so the kayak doesn't shade the panels if you don't take it down as soon as you get there.

The only real problem is if you use 40 ah at night and wake up to a miserable, rainy day with no sun.  Another night of pulling 40 ah out of a 92 ah battery is going to leave you with a SERIOUSLY unhappy battery.  Wouldn't surprise me if the cpap stopped working before dawn on that second night. You would really have to plan to go for a long drive on a day like that, rather than sitting there in the rain reading a good book and contemplating the whichness of why.  If you had a bigger battery bank, you wouldn't have to do that.

If you pay attention to the weather forecasts and only go when conditions will be favorable, should be no problem.

Either way, the alternator should bring the battery back to near full charge on the drive home, and if it sits out in the sun for a week, it will be fully topped up by the next weekend trip.

Regards
John

Of course you are right, they do offgas, it's just such a low risk of doing any real harm I consider it a non issue. At least in my 13 years of having flooded lead acid in my vehicle it has been.

The Full River are in my cargo trailer which I've left in storage this summer while I travel in the van. They are charged by 190 watts of solar on the roof of the trailer.

In my van I have two complete systems.

1) a 240 watt panel feeding two Crown golf carts
2) a 140 watt panel feeding two T105s

The batteries are a year apart in age so they are only connected to each other through an On-Off switch. I connect them together to use the microwave.

 

[BigT]

Bob.  I'm leaving the above post the way it turned out, and has turned out every single time I've tried to quote a member in a thread.  

I don't know why this is happening.  Do you have any ideas?  It's really frustrating!  

This is what I tried to write:  I don't know why I'm so worried about off-gassing.  In the first post of this thread I mentioned that my father, and later myself after I inherited the van from him, had the battery located just behind the driver's seat, and we had absolutely no issues of any kind.  
Of course back then I wasn't aware of the risks and didn't know I should be careful.  

My Transit Connect has little, sliding windows in the side doors, so I suppose I could always open those and turn on the AC/heater fan when charging off the alternator.

 

[SternWake]

I also had flooded batteries inside a cabinet in my van for several years. I only alternator charged them and they all had very short lifespans. Their premature failures were very inconvenient and entirely my fault as I was ignorant of their requirements. There were times i opened up the cabinet after driving and was hit by the eye watering smell, and that constricted feeling in my throat which would leave a bad taste.

One battery was an Exide Nautilus, and that battery spewed acid every time i drove and it ate away the paint on the floor as I only had one battery box and 2 mismatched different aged house batteries in parallel. That battery was certainly a health hazard. When it later shorted a cell, the smell was present 24/7 and led to discovery of the shorted cell once I separated the two batteries, as something was obviously wrong.

It inspired me to weld up a battery box below the floor with a sealed access hatch above them. But even with this sealed hatch, whose sealing methods i improved many times because I could still sometimes smell them charging, did not stop the smell from entering the Van when I was top charging or Equalizing the batteries. This hatch is also inside my cabinet whose door fits quite tightly and later was also sealed, and has a louvered vent to the Van exterior for my Fridge, that is open more often than not, and I still smelled them charging, but at that point, only when at night with a plug in charger going.

For me, the offgassing was unpleasant, and an issue I spent considerable time and effort to negate.

Now I put the single Northstar 27 AGM in that underfloor hatch which can accept 2 group 27 batteries, and My flooded battery goes underhood where the original engine battery goes.

When equalizing the flooded battery when underhood, I can also smell it before even opening the hood.

I do not feel my Sniffer is all that sensitive, though others disagree. I do occasionally Smoke too which is a sniffer killer.

I do think I was sensitized to the smell of a charging battery. I personally will not put a flooded battery where I can smell it when inside my Van, and that included under the floor with a sealed access hatch above them. And when i say sealed I mean there was 1/2 inch wide 1/4 inch thick closed cell weather strip insulation full compressed between the flanges. How the smell penetrated that is a mystery, one I gave up on solving and it was only resolved when i put the northstar AGm there, and the flooded battery under the hood.

For me it was an issue of unpleasantness, with possible future consequences of unknown degree, and only got worse once I learned how to not destroy my batteries by chronically undercharging them. Whenever there was no wind, and my batteries were in the 2 to 4 hour absorption charge stage at 14.4v, I could smell them, even on solar only recharging. It was later on, much more recently, that I increased the amount of Solar, and reduced battery capacity and put the AGM below the hatch.

So in my opinion, offgassing is a big factor for the unpleasantness, and possible health consequences from long term exposure to sulfuric acid mist.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=254&tid=47

I was less worried about explosive gas concentration, in fact I was not worried at all about this, but perhaps should have been as the consequences if it occurs can be life altering

 

[akrvbob]

Bob.  I'm leaving the above post the way it turned out, and has turned out every single time I've tried to quote a member in a thread.  

I don't know why this is happening.  Do you have any ideas?  It's really frustrating!  

This is what I tried to write:  I don't know why I'm so worried about off-gassing.  In the first post of this thread I mentioned that my father, and later myself after I inherited the van from him, had the battery located just behind the driver's seat, and we had absolutely no issues of any kind.  
Of course back then I wasn't aware of the risks and didn't know I should be careful.  

My Transit Connect has little, sliding windows in the side doors, so I suppose I could always open those and turn on the AC/heater fan when charging off the alternator.

Big T, how are you getting the Quote? There are two ways 

1) either hit REPLY BUTTON at the  bottom of the post you want to quote, which I have done here and seems to work fine. The quotes are in a box and you start typing below the box

2) Hit the QUOTE BUTTON at the bottom of the post and then scroll to the bottom and find the Quick REPLY box. At the bottom of the REPLY BOX is a sentence in green that says something like "You have One quoted message, use it?" Click on it and the quote will appear and you stat typing below it. 

Bob

 

[BigT]

Well the panel's up anyway.  I used four u-bolts.  The dealer said it would be OK to drill holes in the panel frame.  
The only downside is that I can no longer drive all the way into my carport without hitting the rear of the panel on the support beam. 

I'm going to do a few mpg tests to see how much of an effect the panel has on my fuel economy.  I'm going to be bummed if it has a big impact.  
27 mpg/highway is a big reason I chose the Transit Connect.  

There's an air dam at the front that, hopefully, will reduce some of the drag and/or turbulence.  

 

[BigT]

Done & Done!  Finally!!  

I got the complete system (190 Watt panel/Morningstar MPPT charge controller) installed this weekend.  Ugh, I can't tell you what a relief it is to finally have this project over with.  In hindsight, however, I wish I'd mounted the CC in the back of the van and run two 15 foot lengths of 8AWG wire under the frame straight to the battery under the hood.  
Instead I mounted the cc to the kick-panel on the driver's side and ran the MC4 the length of the van, under the plastic trim at the edge of the carpet.  
I also routed the wires (cc-to-battery & remote temp sensor) through the firewall to the battery.  This was much more complicated than running the cc-to-battery wires under the frame as it involved tearing the van apart and plumbing wires all over the place.  
At least Ford has these little, rubber plugs on the firewall (pictured on the right), so I didn't have to drill through the sheet metal.  

I got it stuck in my head that I needed to mount the cc within 3' of the battery.  Stuck so hard that I completely forgot to consider other options, like the 8AWG under the frame idea.  Dumb.  The good news is I can always go back later and change it if I find I don't like having the cc so close to my left foot.  
I'm thinking I might run some 8AWG wire and fuse holder under the frame now, so the conversion will be easier when/if I decide to make the switch.  

 

[NomadMike]

What batteries did you go with? The Crown or Trojan would be the top picks, but i have heard good things about the Costco Interstate 6v golf cart batteries also. Just be aware that in all 3 of those choices the manufacturer recommends 14.8V recharge voltage. I know the Morningstar Tristar controllers are able to be set to that voltage, but i am not sure about the Morningstar Sunsaver controller that you have.

 

[BigT]

I ended up with a tiny little Northstar AGM with a 75Ah capacity.  I mounted it under the hood where the OEM battery sat.  That way it's plumed straight into the van's electrical system and allows me to use the stock Acc plugs when I want to run something, like my CPAP (the entire reason I did any of this).  

I don't live in the van, I only use it on weekend getaways when kayaking or hiking, so the smaller size works well.  
I'm not sure how much initial voltage is recommended for that size AGM battery.  

btw...  I'm not getting any heat at all from the Acc plug when I run the CPAP all night.   (someone suggested that I might).