Finally pulled the trigger on my solar system!

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SternWake said:
As I type, my Northstar AGm27 is both my engine starting battery and house battery.  

You could get away with putting the NorthStar under the hood, assuming it will fit, and get by having no Auxiliary battery set up and run a wire from charge controller to engine battery.  

Then I would recommend carrying a fully charged jumper pack just in case you drain it too far, and do not have to wait for the solar to replenish enough to start the engine. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...+jumper+packs&rh=i:aps,k:lithium+jumper+packs

There is no issue with an AGM in the engine compartment instead of a flooded battery.  The only possible issues with AGM, is when they are depleted, due to their lower internal resistance, they can overtask the alternator, but this is very platform specific with many other contributing factors. If your current engine battery is still newish, then this is a less appealing option unless you can get OK money for it.  

You can certainly run just a single group27 Northstar battery as both House and Starting battery, but you have less safety buffer.  

I think if you can park facing Due west, the Kayak shadowing will only be an issue in early morning or late afternoon in summertime, when there is not much harvest anyway.

You've got a good grasp on this.  There is no one right way to accomplish it.  Monitor your overnight usage, know how much you have to use, how much you can use, and the expected weather and whether the Solar will have a chance to hold the Northstar battery at 14.46 for ~4 hours and if cycling it nightly for a week straight, hold 14.46v for 6 hours instead of 4.

When you get that older bluetopped Northstar battery, it will not be rip roaring ready to cycle.   A 50% discharge followed by a 25 amp minimum recharge and hold 14.46 until amps taper to 0.45a should allow the resting open circuit voltage to go above 13 volts and the battery to have its full remaining capacity available.  Do you have access to a 25 amp charger?

Mine holds 13.06v for weeks, but would not hold that voltage until 50% discharged and high amp recharged. And it requires this every so often too, which is why I keep pushing for you to allow the alternator to quench it when most depleted.

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear that I can run the Northstar under my hood in place of my OEM battery.  If I can get it to fit, this would solve my limited space problem by quite a bit!  I'm not super hopeful that it will fit, though. 
The OEM battery is 9.5 Long X 6.9 Wide X 6.9 Tall, while the Northstar 27F is 12.44 Long X 6.77 Wide X 8.75 Tall.  
That's 3" longer and approx. 2" taller.  

If I could get away with a lower Ah rating, like a Northstar 24F 80Ah, the size of the battery's case would decrease by 1 1/2" wide and 3/4" in height.  

I don't own a 25 Amp charger, but I can ask the mechanics at work if they have one I can use.  It looks like both Amazon and Malwart have them for about $70.

If I can get the 24F or 27F AGM to fit under the hood, could I get away with the 190 Watt panel, or should I still upgrade to the 300 Watt unit?
 
Can you fit the Northstar on Its side underhood?  

With Solar, more is always better.  Too easy to have too little, very hard to have too much.

If you already ordered the 190watt, just roll with it.
 
So you're saying the 190W would be OK?  

I didn't have to order the panel, there's a solar shop 6 miles from my place with a huge selection of panels and accessories, so returns/exchanges/upgrades, if they allow them, are no problem.  The only "issue" (if it's even an issue) is that the 300W panel would cost me an additional $174, and I'd need a new charge controller.  I'm not sure how much more that would be.  The Morningstar I bought was $220, but it's only good for 200 Watts max.  
Most solar companies I've found online seem to have return policies, and I can't see them being reluctant to take more of my money.

I just took a look under the hood, and much to my dismay, it doesn't look like there's a lot of (any) spare room in there.  
The OEM unit is 9" wide, but the 27F is 3.5" wider.   :s  As you can see, there's no way to fit another 3 1/2 inches in that space, and definitely no sideways room. 


 
No 190 watts is not ideal for that battery. 
How Unideal or OK it is, is dependent on your ability to occasionally feed it higher amperage from a depleted state to a bursting full state.

That visible copper stranding on the (-), clean it off well with some rubbing alcohol and wrap it with self fusing tape or liquid electrical tape, or it is going to start growing white and green cauliflower.

Ford should be ashamed.

http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Rep...3-7145360?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BXZ80V1Q9PP1N9BW898
 
SternWake said:
No 190 watts is not ideal for that battery. 
How Unideal or OK it is, is dependent on your ability to occasionally feed it higher amperage from a depleted state to a bursting full state.

I'm a little surprised to hear that.  In several past threads on this forum I've read that a good rule of thumb is to have a 1:1 Panel-Watts to battery Ah ratio, and that anything above that was simply icing on the cake.  

190 Watts going into a 92 Ah battery would be a 2:1/Watts to battery Ah ratio.  Wouldn't that be a good thing??  Or am I looking at it from the wrong direction and it's because the 190W panel only puts out 10 Amps on a clear day, and that's just not enough?  Or is it that the battery Ah's aren't high enough?  
If I installed a 150 Ah AGM and kept the 190 panel, would that be a better combo?  
Please help me understand where I'm going wrong with this.  

How many Amps could I expect to get out of a 300 Watt panel?  Wouldn't it be 15 Amps?  And if it was, and I got a 150 Ah AGM, wouldn't I simply still be doing the same thing?  (300 Watts to 150 Ah still = 2:1).   :huh:  Or would the higher Ah be the difference?  

Oh, and I called the solar shop this morning.  They don't do refunds, just store credit.  To update from my 190 to a 300W panel and matching cc, it would cost me an additional $325, bringing my total up to $780 for panel, cc, and MC4.   :s

The 30 Amp Morningstar CC alone is $330.  

I'm having a hard time interpreting this tag.  I thought this panel would put out 10A, but I see no mention of that, unless it's the "fuse rating" line. 

 
The 1 to 1 solar to capacity ratio is a general guideline and one for those with flooded batteries that are shallowly cycled, and this ratio is OK for a battery which is shallowly cycled, for a flooded battery.

But an AGM battery is a different animal. Especially when discharged to 50%.

It is a whole different animal when the battery is cycled nightly to 50%. Not only is more juice needed to refill the battery, but a higher rate is needed initially to force the electrolyte to migrate.

Northstar and Odyssey use thinner denser plates under higher pressure than other AGM's, and these when deeply cycled require huge charging currents for the battery to retain as much capacity as possible for as long as possible. Odyssey states that their deeply cycled 100 AH battery required a minimum of 40 amps initially for it to come anywhere near its claimed cycle life of 800 cycles to 20% depth of discharge.

That cycle life claim is highly suspicious in my opinion. Lifeline AGM is undoubtedly the top Dog AGM in deep cycle application and they say expect only 550 cycles to 20% but 1000+ at 50%. Lifeline also dictates 20 amps minimum for a regularly deeply cycled 100AH battery.

If you want an AGM battery that is deeply cycled nightly to last, the ability to feed it higher currents is paramount. Perhaps not every cycle, but the more often the better, there is No way around this. No one to one broad brush ratios, and do not believe any reports of 'just fine' with lesser, when no measurement tools are used to monitor performance during the limited lifespans from the 'just fine' brigade.

You have stated your desire to get the most from your future NS AGM battery, asking what is ideal and this is what I am trying to relate, the Ideal for an AGM, and a Northstar AGM, the exact battery I have, and cycle, and have the tools and interest to monitor it through out its lifespan of which i am 18+ months into.

And I am telling you, lesser recharging currents from a well depleted state, do not make this battery happy. 1 to 1 ratios in my opinion are too little even for a flooded battery that is cycled to lower than 70% nightly.

Yes my 200 watts of solar can get this battery from 50% to 100% on a good sunny day in the summer time, but 4 days of this and I notice voltage sagging under the same loading as the previous nights. Last night I saw a shocking 11.7 at 51AH from full, as the clouds and rain moved in at 2PM and i wasted the afternoon on this dang laptop. Only a high amp recharge restores performance, and I went out and plugged in at 1AM go give this battery 40 amps and it gobbled them up like a princess in a high fashion shoe store with daddy warbucks credit card

Extended time at 14.46v daily or every so often only partially restores performance and slows down capacity loss

If you want to deeply cycle a northstar -27 AGM battery, and get the most from it, 190 watts of solar on its own is simply not enough to get maximum lifespan from this battery. Higher currents applied more often from a discharged state will be required to partially negate this imperfection in recharging. Holding absorption voltage for longer every few cycles can only partially negate the lesser recharge currents.

But Ideal is 20+ amps applied instantly when the battery is at its most depleted. This is why I keep trying to herd Cats and keep pushing for you to use the alternator in addition to whatever solar you can fit, if you choose this AGM battery. A 20 minute drive with 20+ alternator amps and allowing the solar to finish it off is so much closer to ideal than just 190 watts of solar, even on the perfectly sunny summer day where the panel is not going to be shadowed at all.

As far as the panel rating goes, it is not a 12v nominal panel but a higher voltage panel made for a stick and brick application. To charge a 12v battery with this panel, a MPPT controller must be used and this takes the extra voltage and lesser amperage rating and transforms it into a lower voltage output at higher amps. You cannot use a cheaper PWM controller with this panel to charge a 12v battery.

So you appear to be stuck with 190 watts. If you do get this Northstar 27 AGM battery, and cycle it below 70% state of charge nightly, you need to occasionally be able to feed it Higher amps from a discharged state, and the higher the amps the better. There is no way around this, unless you accept less battery longevity as a result of inferior charging currents.

Any charging is better than no charging, any solar is better than no solar, but ideal, acceptable and barely adequate have huge, HUGE effects on battery lifespan.

Since most people have No idea the health of their batteries, or their remaining capacity, reports of 'works just fine' are absolutely meaningless, when one is seeking ultimate battery lifespan, which you have repeatedly stated is your intention. But then you grasp onto the often stated 1 to 1 ratio which others, who have no tools or ability or desire even, report as being 'just fine'. Which simply means, 'has not failed yet'. And when the battery capacity has diminished to a point where it is no longer 'just fine' it comes as a complete surprise to the 'just fine' brigade. Often these battery murderers blame not their inadequate recharge regimen, but the battery itself, when they themselves and their 'just fine' inadequacy are solely responsible for premature failure.

Watts are watts AC or DC. volts x amps = watts, to if the voltage is lower, the amps are higher. Higher voltage, lower amps. Simple math.

So it appears you are seeking ideal battery longevity, with a 'just fine' approach, and never the two will meet.

I've outlined ideal with the exact battery that you intend on purchasing, the exact battery I own and cycle and monitor with the tools and skills and interest and desire to do so. 190 watts of solar alone, is Not ideal for it. Far from Ideal. Ideal and only 190 watts of solar used on this particular AGM cycled deeply, daily are so far apart they should not be in the same galaxy, Much less the same sentence.

Ideal is simply 20+ amps applied instantly at the point the battery is most deeply discharged. Ideal is 20+ amps applied until battery voltage reaches 14.46v at a battery temperature of 77F. Ideal is 14.46v reached at a constant current of 20+ amps and then held at a constant voltge of 14.46v at 77f until amps required to hold 14.46v taper to 0.46a. Ideal is this regimen applied after each and every discharge, ASAP.

Anything less is a compromise to some degree or another, with the typical 'just fine' being right at the bottom.

The amount of compromise you are willing to make is upto you, but don't grasp onto 'just fine' 1 to 1 ratios, and expect Ideal, especially with a high$$ High recharge rate AGM, no matter how much you want to believe the 'just fine' brigade.

The high prices of these quality AGMS does not make them more resistant to owner abuse. They are like a high $ german sports car. Just because it cost 100K$ does not mean one can skip the oil changes. Infact the oil changes require more oil and a high dollar synthetic oil that meets the rigorous specs of the manufacturer and go for 10$ a quart.

'Just fine' for this sports car would be a dusty bottle of 'CityStar' 5-30 oil with a fake API star a fake SB rating, purchased in some backwoods handymart, and only enough used to touch the bottom of the dipstick, and not changing the filter.
Ideal would be 10 quarts of Mobil 1 0w-40 changed every 5000 miles by some guy in pristine white overalls who cannot pronounce his W's, and was born potty trained.
 
You bought a battery that is very unhappy being charged by solar only. The easiest solution would be to buy a battery specifically designed to be happy with being charged by solar. The very best would be Trojan REs which are designed to be charged by Renewable Energy. They do make them in 12 volt and all you need to do is put it in a vented box.

This one is 12 volt, 150 ah and would love being charged by your 160 watts and alternator.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/j150-re/

Bob
 
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear or left out this important detail: I fully intend to incorporate the alternator in the system.  
Hopefully 12' to 15' of battery cable, run underneath the van, coming up through a hole in the floor (that's already there) to the (+) terminal on the AGM will be OK.
I was thinking that if I installed a bypass switch somewhere on the 15' cable, I could increase alternator life by disconnecting it, not only when using it at night, but when I know I don't need the extra Amp charge.   That way the alternator won't be constantly charging two batteries.  

I realize that 190 Watts alone isn't enough to keep a 92Ah AGM happy.  Heck, 300 Watts on its own isn't enough.  I get that.  Sorry if I phrased it so it sounded like I haven't been listening to all of your valuable and much appreciated advise.  When I asked my last question I was still basing it on my plan/hope to mount the AGM under the hood in place of the OEM unit.  I wish I could do that, but I think only an 80Ah or smaller has any chance of fitting in there, and even that would be a tight squeeze.  

I crunched the numbers a little more carefully, and it seems I misspoke when I quoted my cost for additional Wattage at $325.  It looks like I could upgrade to the 300W system for about $200 - $225 more.  
If, on the other hand, running the 190W panel and 20A MPPT CC I already have with alternator backup would be closer to "ideal", I'll skip upgrading to the 300W and just install the 190 already.
 
For some reason I can't get Bob's last post to show up as a quote in this reply.  :s :huh: 

It's way too hot in here for me to be beating this to death right now.  I'll post my reply later when it cools off a bit.
 
The Trojan j150 is an excellent battery. My next battery will be the Trojan T-1275, which is very similar.  But slightly smaller for the same weight.  Same amount of lead, less electrolyte, which is a compromise

 It is built with thicker plates with more space under them for sheddings to accumulate before shorting out the cell, and can hold more electrolyte.  Their SCS line in the group 24/27, and 31 lines have only half the expected cycle life as these taller scrubber/ golf cart batteries, and are often the same price.  Trojan's 24/27/31 size group batteries are among the very best deep cycle 12v batteries, many miles ahead of any other easily obtained marine/dual purpose battery, but the fact is the case size of 24/27/and 31 were originally designed for starting batteries.  Shoving deep cycle or dual purpose plates inside of them is a Compromise.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery



It is my opinion however that these RE batteries are no different internally than their regular lineup without the RE in their title.

Even Concorde, who make the Lifeline AGM battery that I've found to be so impressive, offer a SunExtender line marketed for solar/wind installations, but when one downloads the Sunextender user manual, there is absolutely no difference from the regular Lifeline AGM PDF users manual.  The same charge recommendations exist on both.

The marketers saw that there is a significant market for a battery aimed at the solar or wind power people, and ordered up a bunch of New stickers with 'renewable' and green letters to slap on their already existing lineup. That is my opinion.

Trojan recommends a 10 to 13% rate, 10 to 13 amps per 100AH of capacity. They do not have an asterix saying that their RE batteries are an exception and are quite happy with lower currents, that they reformulated the plate paste material and electrolyte/Lead ratio for the Low and slow solar regimen.  Only a Sticker with some green on it, and a glossy marketing page proclaiming their greatness in this application, and perhaps a higher price to help convince the consumer..

Flooded batteries are happier with lesser charging currents than AGM, of that there is no doubt, and the deeper the discharge of the battery, the more important it becomes to achieve higher charge rates, and this is not only because there is only so much time available before the next discharge cycle begins and because  more energy is required to refill the battery, but because the higher charging currents are required for the chemical reaction to occur throughout the depth/thickness of the plates and achieve a true full charge and not a pseudo full charge which is practically indistinguishable to all but those who monitor Amp draw and amp hours consumed and the voltage held during discharge.

It is basically impossible to perfectly treat a battery.  Even if floated at a perfect temperature compensated voltage and never cycled at all, the battery is only expected to last 10 to 12 years.  Batteries have a 100% failure rate!  The only factor is the time until they fail, and that variable is directly related to how they are treated.

And while some manufactures consider a battery's cycle life to be over when it only has 80% of its original capacity, others do not state at what remaining capacity they consider their battery to still be viable.  My Old group31 battery can hold 12.7 volts for a day after a recharge, it can still power an ARB fridge for 3 days easily, but in my estimation has well less than half of its original capacity of 130AH.

Those of us relying on battery power, and want to get good to excellent cycle life, maximum cycles per $$,  from the battery, need to meet the batteries basic needs of prompt and full recharging after every discharge cycle.  The best place to start is the battery manufacturer recommendations, but these are not written in stone.  I've noticed manufacturers change their 'ideal' recommendation in the last decade.  It is up to the user to ultimately fine tune their charging regimen to that which allows the battery to hold the highest voltage during each subsequent discharge.

With Flooded batteries, the Hydrometer is the ultimate tool for determining how well the battery responds to any particular recharge regimen from a certain level of discharge.  Watching the voltmeter when discharging, and knowing the discharging loads via an Ammeter is extremely helpful as well.  An Amp hour counter/battery monitor, while not 100% accurate, is also an invaluable tool, when programmed correctly and occasionally rezeroed.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/programming_a_battery_monitor

With an AGM battery the Hydrometer is Useless.  Then the other tools become that much more important in determining when the battery is indeed fully charged, but also when the rate at which 'full charge' was reached is actually acceptable.

There is no magical device which one can just attach to a battery which can determine state of charge and health.  Impedence testers are not reliable on Deep cycle batteries:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/impedance_testers

The recharging  needs vary among battery types, and they change as the battery ages, and the Northstar AGM group27's demands are greedier than most other AGM batteries.  If its demands/requirements are met then it will give excellent service.  If they are not met, it will give marginal service for a premium price, and leave a bad taste in the consumer's mouth.  The Older Blue top line of Northstar battery the OP can get at less than half price, and adequately recharged every cycle, might not yield a good cycler per dollar ratio.  It might be very poor.  I'd guess this Aged but uncycled  battery has even higher demands than a newer Northstar that has not been on the shelf for 2.5 years.  If the OP cannot properly recharge this battery initially via a high amp recharge from a depleted state, the probability for success in the cycle per dollar category becomes quite questionable 

I find my Northstar battery to be quite impressive, but I can meet its high amperage recharge requirements.
 18 months ago, when I bought it, I first got the bluetop because the battery distributor cut 75 dollars off of the price.  I'd bought another flooded battery at the same time which was supposed to be a relabelled Crown Deep cycle group31, but when I weighed it it was 10 Lbs light and corresponded to their marine battery, which I did not want.  When I returned the marine battery, quite furious and practically frothing at the mouth with the bait and switch, I returned the bluetop too and pulled an All grey new northstar from the shelf that had the highest resting voltage, and paid the extra for the newer battery.

While ultimately it comes down to cycles per dollar, I view batteries as experiments on which to learn and be comparable to the lifespans of other batteries, and I want to start the experiment with an uncompromised product,  not one which appeared to be a good deal pushed by the seller to clear out their old stock. 

Meeting high amp high $$ AGM recharging demands when cycled below 70% state of charge is practically impossible via solar alone.  The Same applies for most AGMs but not to the same degree.  Since AGM's are twice as expensive, one needs to think twice before thinking that they are the simple obvious solution to offgassing, and that any charging source is adequate, hoping any charging source is adequate, and believing the 'just fine' brigade, that it is.

Lesser $$ AGMs like Deka intimidator or Universal battery list a maximum recharge rate of 30 amps per 100AH of capacity. It is my opinion that these batteries are better suited to low and slow solar only, but that these still benefit from charging amps upto the 30% listed maximum.

Please do not consider spiral wound/six pack style batteries for deep cycle applications.  The design reduces available capacity by 25% compared to a rectangular AGM of the same size footprint.  The main benefit from the six pack design is resistance to vibration and physically stronger casing.  So good for rock crawlers rally cars or wave jumping jet skis, but of no benefit to a Van dweller.

Understand the manipulation of the marketers.  They are professional liars, just like politicians. They claim to have your interests in mind, but really all they care about is maximizing the weight of their wallet.  Even the reputable brands have to do this, just to compete.
 
BigT said:
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear or left out this important detail: I fully intend to incorporate the alternator in the system.  
Hopefully 12' to 15' of battery cable, run underneath the van, coming up through a hole in the floor (that's already there) to the (+) terminal on the AGM will be OK.
I was thinking that if I installed a bypass switch somewhere on the 15' cable, I could increase alternator life by disconnecting it, not only when using it at night, but when I know I don't need the extra Amp charge.   That way the alternator won't be constantly charging two batteries.  
  We've not discussed aux battery isolation methods which also allow alternator recharging.

The Simple On off switch is the easiest method, but Not automatic.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...d_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687682&pf_rd_i=B000MMFJH0

That is a product recommendation, instead of just an example of such a product.
There are about a Dozen other methods too utilizing different products.

If the Aux battery is not depleted below 80%, then the added stress to the alternator is negligible.
The Aux battery stresses the alternator most when most depleted, which is precisely when you want to feed the battery the highest amperage.  If you are really worried about the alternator lifespan, go for 6 or 8awg cabling.  If Ultimate battery lifespan is your goal, go for 2 or 4awg cabling.

The compromise lay somewhere between those two.
 
One reason I think the The Trojan T105 RE is a different battery and not just a sticker is it has more than double the length of warranty than the standard T105. It seems logical to me that there must be some reason they double the warranty. Replacement jumps from 1 year to 2 years and partial replacement jumps fro 2 years to 5 years. They are betting that it is a better battery.

They claim it's better because of "Smart Carbon" that specifically allows the battery to better handle Partial State of Charge (PSOC) and decreases the rate of sulfation. They must actually believe it since they doubled the warranty.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_RE_brochure.pdf

I thought it applied to the whole RE line but it doesn't, just the T105. It seems to me that the t105 RE is a far better choice for solar/alternator charging than the Lifeline AGM because it is happier with a far lower charge rate which solar can provide.

But I still think the whole Trojan flooded line is a better choice and will give you a much longer life than an AGM that demands very high voltages. For example, the J150 wants to be charged at 15-20 amps and his 160 watt panel can almost do it alone but add in the alternator and it's a very happy battery. With the 300 watt panel he wouldn't need the alternator at all except for bad weather.

I guess we each have our preferences and make our own choices.
Bob
 
You wont catch me bad talking Trojan, even if their 24/27/31 batteries make claims as to deep cycle construction even though this size format is a huge compromise in that ability. All batteries in these group sizes are not comparable to a real deep cycle battery, and trojans are likely the best of those available in a flooded format. AGMs in these size formats can indeed be superior, but their charge requirements are more restrictive.

The T-105 is their biggest moneymaker and their claim to fame. Their L-16 is likely without equal unless one gets a Rolls/Surrette for 50% more $$.
Trojan and USBattery are practically at war with one another to capture the golf cart market, and their plate paste formulations and application methods are closely guarded secrets.

PSOC cycling is a huge issue in Van dwelling that most are unaware of and is the cause for many/most premature failures. Most have no idea that a lead acid battery really really wants to be brought upto 100% state of charge after every discharge cycle ASAP, and that anything less is a compromise to some degree or another. Don't get me started on soothing green lights on charging sources that supposedly indicate a fully charged battery.

And do note that Trojan recommends a 14.8v absorption voltage while Northstar AGM recommends 14.46v, So it is not the high voltage that AGMS desire, but the high initial amperage, but I suspect that was just a misprint on your part.

We can't really compare AGM to Flooded, when the OP is pretty well set upon AGM.

My preference is to deeply Cycle a Flooded battery. My Northstar AGM was bought basically because I wanted to learn how such a battery responded in my Uses and at the time i was working a lot with money in my pocket. I found out it was not Good for solar only recharging, day after day, without high amperage blasting. I recently reconfirmed this. The Northstar is superbly capable dual purpose AGM battery. Incredible engine cranking ability and resistance to deep cycling, but it absolutely needs to be high amp recharged when cycled deeply. I spoke at length with an Odyssey engineer about their 100AH group 31 battery and 198 watts of solar only recharging and instead of the usual 'sure it will be fine', he recommended against using their product in such an application, that there was no way i'd get my moneys worth via a solar only recharge, and to get a flooded battery like trojan, and preferably the t-105.

Right now my NS AGM is my Only (lead acid) battery in my Van, and My alternator has basically failed after 9 years of heavy use with what I believe to be a shorted Stator. I am pretty happy having the AGM now as it can hold higher voltages under similar loading than an even larger flooded deep cycle battery rated at higher capacity and was still able to hold 12.6 volts after driving 10 miles running errands with 5 different engine starts. while still powering my fridge and fans and of course all the engine electrics. it was mostly cloudy so the solar contribution was a fraction of normal

I am also happy being able to plug into the grid and run my adjustable voltage 40 amp power supply all night for my DC loads holding the NS at 13.6v. I did go 5 nights cycling the Northstar AGM and solar only recharging, and last night it was obvious capacity had walked down, as voltage under load was 0.4v less than I expected to see for the amount of AH removed under the the 8.7amp load that I saw 11.7v.

There is no one right answer for everybody's system or needs. If BigT wants to deeply cycle an AGM, and get a respectable lifespan from it, he will require higher amp charging sources be employed regularly in addition to the solar, and be applied from the most depleted state. Easiest solution, hook up the Alternator and sacrifice some Alternator longevity. How much longevity? who knows. I expected my junky reman'd alternator to fail years ago.

How are those Full River batteries doing Bob?
 
Nothing is as simple as it seems, eh.

All advertisers need to tell you that their product is better is one tiny little thing that they can key in on, and use it to tell people that it is the best even if it is only the best in one rare situation or something you can't take advantage of. In the case of AGM's, the ability to put them on their side is an advantage. The ability to take high current isn't so much of an advantage as it is a requirement. The solar isn't sized to the Ah of the bank but rather the C rate. A 3-1 ratio, 750w is barely able to meet the minimal charge rate for one of my 8-D's at 50%.

So our plan is enough solar to act as a micro generator when we use the power the most. Loads like the microwave that over power the solar are short term and the excess power is replaced quickly afterwards. The banks have always been in float most of the time unless it's night when we use very little power. The bank will be expected to carry us for bad weather but if it's too long I have a Megawatt 36a variable voltage power supply to add to the up to 50a the solar can bring down. I am wondering if I couldn't add in the Parallax 55a converter at least until the bank reached it's 13.6v limit.

That's the plan anyways. A different battery would have a different set of advantages and I'd have to learn the care and feeding of it instead.

BTW

I spoke with a seller of AGM's and the venting requirements for the warranty were far from ventless. They wanted a high and low vent because they get hot. Also, don't be fooled by the sealed aspect. At high temperatures and high voltage, they can vent gas. Normally they wont but you should plan for the worst of times.
 
The parallax and Megawatt should work together until battery voltage reaches parallaxes 13.6v maximum at which pint the parallax would stop and the megawatt will march on alone.

Don't be afraid to open the casing of the megawatt and add a better 60Mm fan or increase the heatsinking on the case. Its casing will get hot maxed out and it might throttle back output to the high 20 amp range, If Ninerbikes reports are accurate.
 
Thank you for that. It made sense that I could use the Parallax but it's always best to ask.

Niner and Mex over on RV.net are the reason I have the Megawatt. It was a choice between that and the 50 amp Mean well. The Mean well with higher amps and voltages would have seemed the better choice but at three times the cost. The Megawatt will fill the need for $65 and I could stack three of them at 100a for what one Mean well cost.

So that is 55a from the Parallax up to 13.6v.

36a from the Megawatt

up to 50a from the solar.

That's 140a and nearly enough to hit the full banks minimum charge rate.
 
For the record, and just to be clear.  I'm not dead-set on the Northstar 92 Ah AGM.  It's simply the model the battery salesman recommended to (pushed on) me.

If there's a battery out there that would be happy getting its charge solely from a 300 Watt panel, I'm open to the possibility.  I'm just not sure how I would go about venting the box as I'm reluctant to chop large holes in my van.  Hacking into the sheet metal of my van is the only reason why I turned to the AGM design.

Furthermore, my reluctance to run power off the alternator has less to do with the level of difficulty installing it and more a matter of being lazy and wanting the solar system to be completely separate from the van.  
Since part of the reason I'm designing this van is to act as a piece of my earthquake kit (for shelter, cooking, etc), I wanted to be able to keep the battery charged without having to run the engine.  

Still, I'm open to including the alternator if it's the best option.  I'm also open to keeping the 190 Watt panel.  190 or 300 is fine, I just want to run what combo will produce the best results.  

I am completely open to suggestions.
 
No one make recommendations as we are not sure of your nightly amp hour consumption.  I think the latest range was 5AH to 50AH nightly.


That salesman might have found another person to take that 2.5+ year old NS battery by now.  I'd definitely not consider the Northstar as a Solar only battery, certainly not at full price.

At that age, if they charged it at least every 6 months it should still be a 80+ amp hour battery.  if you took 50% from it nightly then 300 watts would likely not be enough to keep it happy.

The half price was the only thing acceptable about the Northstar in your intended application.

So basically we don't know your amp hour consumption, we don;t know if you are willing to employ the alternator or not in addition to solar, we don;t know if you are going to use a 190 watt panel or a 300, nor do we know if you will accept a flooded battery in the interior or not.

But we do know you are open to suggestions, and are overwhelmingly indecisive.

I think you should just get the cheapest AGM battery you can find, run with the solar only for now, and consider the possibility of hooking the alternator later if the recharging capacity is obviously too little.

You are not going to find perfection with all the restrictions you have placed on the system.

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pow...09812&sr=1-1&keywords=Universal+Battery+100AH
 
I hate this!  I had a reply written, and the site wouldn't post it!  
SW...  How would that battery you last linked to perform with a 300 Watt panel?  http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pow...09812&sr=1-1&keywords=Universal+Battery+100AH
SLA would suggest that it doesn't need to be vented to the outside.  Is this correct?  
I'll "coin" my last reply..
- 5 to 38 Ah per night average.
- I'm OK with running the alternator.
- I just looked and don't have a flat, unobstructed place in the van to mount a vent.  The van is tiny and has no open wall space.  
- I'm going to return the 190 Watt panel and pick up a 300 Watt panel this week.  To heck with the cost!

Indecisive. Yup, that's me. I drive people crazy and eventually they stop wanting to help me. It's a curse.
 
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