Engines to Stay Away From?

[imbuffnotreally]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Hi everyone![/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I appreciate all the input on my last thread - it has been very helpful. However, looking back I now realize I didn't really ask the proper question in regard to the info I was looking for. So, I hope it's ok that I've started this one.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm looking at primarily box trucks as my potential vehicle of choice - step vans being a close second, but not convinced of them for my needs yet. I've honed in on box trucks (16-18ft) because they're relatively large and don't have wheel wells protruding through the floor (not to mention them being the cheapest option based on my research thus far). My main reason for a truck this big is because I must have a relatively large (about 6ft x 7ft) office space for my work, given the type of work I'm in.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]So with all that said, my question is this - [/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Are there any engines specifically that I should undoubtedly stay clear of in box trucks?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I understand that generally it depends on the age of the engine, mileage and how well it was taken care of - that's not my question. My question is - are there any engine manufacturers, year models, fuel types, engine sizes, or a combination of them all that are widely known in the automotive industry to have a bad reputation of reliability?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For example - I read online that the 14ft and below Uhaul trucks use a GMC engine, but the bigger ones use a Ford engine. And it seems that Ford engine Uhauls don't have a good reputation. Is this true? If so, why?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm not a mechanic and I won't pretend to be. I have done things such as replace u-joints, leaf springs, quarter panels, install suspension air bags, etc... (with a lot of reading, videos and headaches). But when it comes to engines, all I really know is how to change the oil and maybe the spark plugs and a belt here and there. I don't know much (or anything) about the things I've asked about above.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm doing as much research as I can and am learning a lot. But if you guys have any insight I'd be much appreciative to hear it![/font]

 

[speedhighway46]

6.0 liter Ford diesels- don’t touch one with a ten foot pole!

Ford 7.3 and their current diesel, I think it’s a 6.9 are okay; the 7.3 superlative.

 

[imbuffnotreally]

6.0 liter Ford diesels- don’t touch one with a ten foot pole!

Ford 7.3 and their current diesel, I think it’s a 6.9 are okay; the 7.3 superlative.

Exactly the type of info I'm looking for - Thank You!

So for example - I'm currently looking at a 1994 Ford E350 with an International 7.3 Diesel Engine - about 100k miles. Assuming the engine was taken care of, this would be ok in your book, right?

Would you mind giving a few details of the "why" a 6.0 liter is an absolute no go? Also, do you opinions apply to all year models?

 

[highdesertranger]

stay away from any Ford gasoline V-8, V-10 from 98-2008.
stay away from any ford diesel after the 7.3L, after 2003

highdesertranger

 

[user 423]

^
You would get better, more specific info from a forum dedicated to Ford products:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum167/

Gas vs. diesel pros and cons need some research also.

 

[speedhighway46]

The 6.0 liter diesel has a problem with the head bolts; very expensive to correct. The Ford 7.3 diesel is a gem. The vehicle you are looking at with 100k miles is not even broke in yet. Mine, a 2003 Excursion, just turned 200k miles and runs flawlessly; the Allison transmission is just as good.

But there is a downside though, that you need to include in your buying decision. As good as the engine and transmission are, the frame and body parts are not as good. You need to have chassis, front end, brakes, and other under body systems checked carefully. I have replaced a front hub, various brake lines, and alternator. Oil changes are $100-150. Diesels are expensive to maintain and repair.

But, if you find a nice vehicle that checks out okay, go for it!

 

[Pleasant Travels]

The particular diesel motor you are looking at is the 7.3 liter "idi" model, not to be confused with the 7.3 diesel that followed it in 1995 that was called the "Powerstroke" series of turbodiesels. Most 7.3 idi were not turbo, but by 1993, most were (check your application). The final output of these idi turbo models was 190 horsepower and 388 foot pounds of torque.

The Powerstroke 7.3 is legendary for the great leap forward it was in performance and efficiency. Prior to the Powerstroke coming on the scene, Cummins had been the only real turbodiesel in a pickup truck since 1989. But they had never been able to fit in a van engine bay. The 1995 Powerstroke, with 215 horsepower and 425 torque, exceeded the output of the Cummins AND was available in the E-series vans. The best year was their final year, 2003, when they were putting out 275 horsepower and 525 torque. Chevy didn't get around to dropping their awesome Duramax turbodiesels into their Express series vans until 2005. (I daily drive a 2006 Duramax Express 2500.)

So as you can see, because the 7.3 idi doesn't put out the performance of the "modern generation" turbodiesels,...many people do not value them much anymore. But that does not mean they are "bad". Here I shall list the positives of the 7.3 idi series.

The modern turbodiesels achieve what they do because of a much more complex and expensive to repair fuel delivery system. Thus, 7.3 idi motors are actually easier and cheaper to repair and maintain than the newer high-performing turbodiesels. And related to this, 7.3 idi models are far easier to convert to run on waste cooking oil or blends thereof. There are some folks who use these older idi engines to travel around for as close to free as one can get. The conversion process is an extra expense, but can more than pay for itself over time.

 

[MikeRuth]

IDK about that 10 year span HDR posted but I'm also not disagreeing. I have read some horror stories.

But I can tell you from personal ownership my 2007 Ford E-150 with 5.4L V8 gas engine bought new has been a dream. At 90K I am just now starting to do a little maintenance. Plugs, belts, tensioner etc. BTW I'm no pussy foot with it either, I have no reservation about flat footing it up on ramps etc. Typical Highway speeds are 75 to 80 and the rpm's around 2200 to 2400. It's no gas sipper though, best is about 14 mpg on the highway.


Mike R

 

[imbuffnotreally]

The particular diesel motor you are looking at is the 7.3 liter "idi" model, not to be confused with the 7.3 diesel that followed it in 1995 that was called the "Powerstroke" series of turbodiesels. Most 7.3 idi were not turbo, but by 1993, most were (check your application). The final output of these idi turbo models was 190 horsepower and 388 foot pounds of torque.

The Powerstroke 7.3 is legendary for the great leap forward it was in performance and efficiency. Prior to the Powerstroke coming on the scene, Cummins had been the only real turbodiesel in a pickup truck since 1989. But they had never been able to fit in a van engine bay. The 1995 Powerstroke, with 215 horsepower and 425 torque, exceeded the output of the Cummins AND was available in the E-series vans. The best year was their final year, 2003, when they were putting out  275 horsepower and 525 torque. Chevy didn't get around to dropping their awesome Duramax turbodiesels into their Express series vans until 2005. (I daily drive a 2006 Duramax Express 2500.)

So as you can see, because the 7.3 idi doesn't put out the performance of the "modern generation" turbodiesels,...many people do not value them much anymore. But that does not mean they are "bad". Here I shall list the positives of the 7.3 idi series.

The modern turbodiesels achieve what they do because of a much more complex and expensive to repair fuel delivery system. Thus, 7.3 idi motors are actually easier and cheaper to repair and maintain than the newer high-performing turbodiesels. And related to this, 7.3 idi models are far easier to convert to run on waste cooking oil or blends thereof. There are some folks who use these older idi engines to travel around for as close to free as one can get. The conversion process is an extra expense, but can more than pay for itself over time.

Thank you all for such great info - this is exactly what I've been looking for! Keep it coming!| Thank you especially to Pleasant Travels for all the great insight. I have a few follow up questions if you don't mind... and anyone else feel free to chime in as well.

FYI - I'm told the horsepower of the truck I'm looking at is 170. So it does in fact sound like the "idi" model you described.

I am completely unfamiliar with diesel engines. I'm doing my research to learn what I can, but would love more input if you're available for it.

• When you state that the "7.3 idi motors are actually easier and cheaper to repair and maintain than the newer high-performing turbodiesels"... how does this compare to a standard gas powered engine? E.G. - Gas mileage, maintenance/repair costs, reliability, etc?

• You also state that "7.3 idi motors are far easier to convert to run on waste cooking oil or blends thereof"... I've searched the internet high and low to understand the benefit of doing this. I'm probably searching the wrong terms, but all I can find is "how to" videos and articles, but nothing I can find explains WHY I would want to make that conversion. Can you briefly explain that to me? And also, is this something I could do myself with no experience with diesel engines? I'm great at following and understanding directions, but like I said... I have no experience.

 

[highdesertranger]

IMO better than waste cooking oil is waste engine oil and trans fluid. a much easier/simpler conversion.

the benefit? free fuel.

we need Low Tech to chime in. he runs a military 6x6 on waste oil.

highdesertranger

 

[barleyguy]

Oh, one thing about old diesel engines like the 7.3 idi... They have "old style" seals, and unless they have been replaced regularly, they probably leak oil. Before buying one, I would check underneath it for oil leaks, or possibly put a cardboard box under it for a couple of hours and see if it gets black spots on it.

That's not a huge criticism really. They are still great engines from a reliability perspective. But if it leaks, you'll either need to feed oil to it and deal with oil coming out the bottom, or do the work (or pay for the work) to replace the seals regularly.

 

[Rhianntp]

stay away from any Ford gasoline V-8,  V-10 from 98-2008.
stay away from any ford diesel after the 7.3L, after 2003

highdesertranger

Could you please elaborate on what is wrong with those engines?  What are great gas engines from 98-2008?  What changed after 2008?  Thanks so much
:thumbsup:

 

[Rhianntp]

When I eventually upgrade what I am working on currently (1991 ford 460) it will be something in that 98 -2008 range. I'm leery about diesel since I know very little about what is involved in maintaining one. My car right now is a buick with the 3800 v6 under the hood.. only has 113,000 miles on it.. my understanding is its one of the most reliable engines ever made? I'd love a good discussion on which gas engines regardless of manufacturer are the best in those date ranges for full size van, truck, class c, mini class A... please anyone feel free to share experiences or knowledge. Thanks

 

[user 423]

Could you please elaborate on what is wrong with those engines?  What are great gas engines from 98-2008?  What changed after 2008? 

Actually it was from '97 when Ford went to different engine designs. It only affects a small percentage of vehicles but they sold millions in that time so you hear about it a lot. There's much info online about the problems:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=ford+plug+problems

Ford finally got around to a fix in 2008.

I don't know about other engine sizes but the 4.6 V8s also had trouble with bad (plastic) intake manifolds.

 

[highdesertranger]

this is all widely available information, on the gas engines first they blow out a sparkplug and take the threads with it. it's a faulty head design plus the dissimilar metals, aluminum head steel spark plug. so when replacing the plug sometime the plug is seized in the head and trying to remove the plug takes the threads with it. then as a fix they introduced a 2 piece spark plug which didn't really help as the plug would break and half would come out and the other half would be stuck in the head. another issue was the way the head was repaired without removing it from the engine, which would leave aluminum contamination in the cylinder, which would shorten overall engine life. the correct way would be to remove the head.

the diesels had many, many issues. i am not going to go into all of them just stay away from any Ford diesel after the 7.3. you will hear that Ford fixed the issues with their current diesel the 6.7. however I personally know 2 people that have blown up 6.7's one of them twice. when I say blown up I mean blown up, the engine blocks were non-salvageable, pistons on the road.

highdesertranger

 

[Rhianntp]

Thanks guys, any particular engines in those date ranges which are more or less bullet proof? I'd prefer to buy vehicles with those if possible
?

 

[B and C]

Buy a Chevy or a Dodge in those years if you need those years.

 

[DannyB1954]

My vote would be get a GM with a 6.0 gas engine.
I own a diesel, (2004 Duramax 6.6 I believe), so I will admit they have a place, but it is a very expensive place if things go bad. They say diesels will run forever, so why is the warranty not any longer than for a gas motor? Because the manufacturers don't want to go broke fixing them. You can buy an extended warranty past that. catch word BUY.

I had a buddy with the Ford 7.3 that is well loved by many. He put so much money into it he could have bought two or three gas engines. I had the international 6.9 which later became the ford 7.3. A cracked cylinder made the replacement cost twice what the truck was worth.

 

[MG1912]

Regarding the Ford PowerStroke 6.0 being a bad engine, this is only true under one set of circumstance, and it is not at all true under another set of circumstances.  Frankly, the 6.0 Ford diesel is the single best engine Ford ever made (technically, International made it).  It had a reputation for blown head gaskets due to bad cooling.  Eventually, coolant and oil would mix and create a sludge, and the coolant would get into the EGR.  Coolant would be introduced into the cylinders, and the steam and pressure would make the engine go “boom.”  People would get to about 110k miles with their 6.0’s and… “boom.”  There were also issues with engines not starting (bad FICM, etc.).  Customers flipped out, and thus the 6.0’s reputation was born.  All these issues, however, are easily fixable now (though it will cost you), 13 years after the engine stopped being produced.  So if you are looking at a 6.0 diesel and plan to do nothing to address the problems, then yes, you are just waiting for an eventual problem.

However, now that the issues with the 6.0 have been resolved, mechanics have found that the 6.0 is an incredible engine after the right work is done.  Properly fixed or addressed preventatively, the 6.0 is probably a 500k or 1 million mile truck, as is the 7.3.  Doing what it takes to get there, however, takes money or serious skills.

Yes, the 7.3 is excellent.  But read below…

The 6.4 is literally a throwaway engine.  Ford and International had a falling out over the 6.0 issues, but International was still on the hook to make the next generation Ford diesel engine.  So they made it a junk engine.  I hear repair places say you can’t even get parts for it.  Run fast and far from this engine.  Thankfully, it was only made for a few years.

The new Ford diesel?  I hear it’s pretty reliable -- more reliable than a lot of people thought it would be.  But read below…

A vehicle is a total package, so consider the total package.  Here’s what I mean:

The 7.3 is a great engine, but the 7.3 came equipped with one of the worst transmissions Ford ever made.  Most 7.3 trucks still on the road have had transmission work done, and some have had multiple transmission replacements.  You can get a rebuilt 7.3 transmission that is bulletproof (there are transmission shops that specialize in this, and they can even ship you a transmission or rebuild yours), but it will cost you a pretty penny.  So if you find a 7.3 in good condition, great… but be aware of the transmission issue.  Also, the 7.3 had the old-style springs up front.  It does not ride like a modern truck, and you may find you have to really help the truck pick its way down the road.  And needless to say, the 7.3 is rapidly becoming a dinosaur.  Even if you get a 7.3 in great shape, the rest of the truck is very old at this point.  Plastic fades and cracks, electronics start to go, etc.  Also, you might be shocked at how low payload figures are for this generation.  As I mentioned in another thread, payload capacities have been climbing for years.

The 6.0 is the best engine Ford ever made, as I said above, if you fix the identified issues.  The 6.0 also has the best transmission Ford ever made.  Almost all 6.0’s still have their original transmissions.  The 6.0 also has modern coil springs up front.

The 6.4 was garbage, as discussed.

The newer 6.7?  Yes, it’s a great and reliable truck, but… remember that the entire appeal of an older diesel engine is the fact that it doesn’t have all the emissions-regulation technology that the government imposed on manufacturers in 2008.  Why is that good?  Well, if you are a committed environmentalist, you won’t care.  But you should know that the emissions technology additions are basically forcing the engine to eat its own excrement.  Yes, that means that some of the “nutrients” are reabsorbed by the body and thus less waste it produced… but if you eat your own waste, you will eventually destroy your body.  The same is true of a truck engine.  These modern diesels are ticking time bombs.  Older diesels run better, more efficiently, and more smoothly because they stay cleaner inside, as they are expelling all the “waste.”  Also, that emissions equipment, such as the platinum-filled particulate filter, and the DPF fluid stuff and everything else they add to modern diesel, is VERY expensive and VERY high tech.  When your 6.7 eventually has problems, it is going to be very, very, very, very, very costly to fix outside of warranty.  7.3 and 6.0 work can be done much less expensively.  And that is just another example of why it is important to consider the total package and not just the engine.

 

[Rhianntp]

Thanks a bunch. Love the details. I'd probably stick to gasoline engines since diesel sounds so expensive and I know very little about whats involved in working on them .