Electrical Placement: Any feedback?

[riggyk]

Hey All:

So I'm starting to get my electrical situation hashed out and much thanks to John (Optimistic Paranoid) I'm learning quite a bit and hopefully ready to begin getting this baby Installed. Very grateful for this forum and those that are willing to lend a hand!

I've uploaded a few pictures for context but my main questions surround general placement before I start to install/attack: If my unit itself is tight and concise, with most main components running close to one another and the battery bank, is it wise on any level to throw everything towards the back of the van vs the front (behind driver seat) to be closer to the alternator? The intention is to throw in alternator/solenoid connection for charge optionality as well, once the main/solar portion is connected.

My setup/intentions/needs:

 - 2 100W Solar
 - 2 6V GC2's in series
 - Needs/Draw: 1 Ceiling light (actual van light) with it's own power run to add a switch, 1 MaxxFan, 1 energy efficient freezer utilized as a low draw fridge, and then inverter for personal charing (cell phone, laptop, bose speakers)
 - Plan to incorporate Alternator/Solenoid charge as well once main setup is in.

As you can see from my pictures I have a raised bed platform towards the back, with plenty of space to utilize underneath. I also have a table that butts flush to the end of the raised bed, underneath on the left hand side will be one half the fridge setup, the other half either storage or electrical unit. There's also a small area of space directly next to where the table ends on the right hand side and my driver seat.


Attempting to install/house al the electrical under the raised bed has it's spacial advantages: I'd free up the second underneath half of my table for water, general storage or whatever..... BUT I can see that this might be a major pain the ass for future access if/when something needs tending to, and that also puts my general electrical further away from the engine. So given this context and the plan that I have to incorporate a run from the alternator via solenoid..... Is under the bed just not a good option here? Should I bite the bullet and just throw it underneath the table and next to the fridge (closer to behind the driver seat)?

Also, is there any advantage or reason to setup the electrical flat on it's back or vertical? In my case it would make sense to throw everything on a back-board flat on it's back if underneath the bed storage area, and vertical the only option if under the table.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[user 37446]

Hey All:

So I'm starting to get my electrical situation hashed out and much thanks to John (Optimistic Paranoid) I'm learning quite a bit
I've uploaded a few pictures for context but my main questions surround general placement before I start to install/attack: If my unit itself is tight and concise, with most main components running close to one another and the battery bank, is it wise on any level to throw everything towards the back of the van vs the front (behind driver seat) to be closer to the alternator? The intention is to throw in alternator/solenoid connection for charge optionality as well, once the main/solar portion is connected.

My setup/intentions/needs:

 - 2 100W Solar
 - 2 6V GC2's in series

Attempting to install/house al the electrical under the raised bed has it's spacial advantages: I'd free up the second underneath half of my table for water, general storage or whatever..... BUT I can see that this might be a major pain the ass for future access if/when something needs tending to, and that also puts my general electrical further away from the engine. So given this context and the plan that I have to incorporate a run from the alternator via solenoid..... Is under the bed just not a good option here? Should I bite the bullet and just throw it underneath the table and next to the fridge (closer to behind the driver seat)?

Just a quick reply, others are far more advanced in this area, (like SternWake for example)... 

First, you will likely have appx 210 amp hours of battery capacity and 200 watts of solar. That's a bit under the "recommended" ratio for solar to battery. 1:1 is minimal, 1.5 is better and a 2:1 is much more beneficial. When you consider solar gain hours at particular latitudes and differing weather conditions, if you are dry camping much, you will likely need the extra wattage to avoid driving or gen set recharging (or simply to help you return your batteries back to as close to 100% state of charge as you can).

Second, another reason for having your batteries closer to the front (the alternator) are the line losses for 12v, and the commensurate expense for a large diameter set of positive and negative cables running an extra 10-20 feet.

Lastly, there's the weight distribution of your particular build.

If you size your cables correctly and don't mind the extra cabling expenses, you'll want to place your batteries wherever they best meet your needs. That means weight distribution, access, ventilation (since they are FLA) and tidiness of all the wiring and other components.

Hope that helps at least a little.

 

[John61CT]

nice woody look there

 

[riggyk]

Just a quick reply, others are far more advanced in this area, (like SternWake for example)... 

First, you will likely have appx 210 amp hours of battery capacity and 200 watts of solar. That's a bit under the "recommended" ratio for solar to battery. 1:1 is minimal, 1.5 is better and a 2:1 is much more beneficial. When you consider solar gain hours at particular latitudes and differing weather conditions, if you are dry camping much, you will likely need the extra wattage to avoid driving or gen set recharging (or simply to help you return your batteries back to as close to 100% state of charge as you can).

Second, another reason for having your batteries closer to the front (the alternator) are the line losses for 12v, and the commensurate expense for a large diameter set of positive and negative cables running an extra 10-20 feet.

Lastly, there's the weight distribution of your particular build.

If you size your cables correctly and don't mind the extra cabling expenses, you'll want to place your batteries wherever they best meet your needs. That means weight distribution, access, ventilation (since they are FLA) and tidiness of all the wiring and other components.

Hope that helps at least a little.

Definitely helpful. Kind of an oversight on my end, but given my current setup and assuming I can't add another solar panel upfront right now to achieve that ratio and the fact that I'm not going to be dwelling/living full time but making a cross country road trip and camping along the way (11-12 days)......If I maintain the current setup, and add the alternator charging capability to utilize when driving long distances (5-10hours) could that potentially suffice to properly charge the batteries to full given the poor ratio on the solar?

My usage would be something like this:

iPhone (Max 3 charges daily with two people)
Low Draw Fridge = 15ah a day
MaxxFan = Minimal Usage at this time to conserve energy
Ceiling light (connected to starter battery/12V LED lights through Inverter

Given I'd be making stops I could supplement charging as I go. Would regulate with a voltmeter.  -- Is this a decent short term way to get some more juice in?

 

[John61CT]

Yes such long drives **can** potentially fill them right back up, but whether your alt/vr is set up to **actually do** that is a question, many go to float too early.

A hydrometer will tell you manually.

A good battery monitor like Balmar Smartgauge, Trimetric or Victron BMV-702 might be overkill.

Getting the driving done early, then a full day of solar will compensate for poor alt/vr.

Other solutions are expensive, DCDC charger, or replacing the alt/vr.

But you will need to separate the Starter when no charging's going on, and a DCDC unit not only does that, but makes up for long-run volt drop as well.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Two golf cart batteries are heavy, and if possible I would try to centralize the weight. Plus having them closer to the front makes it much easier to run all the wiring.

They should be solidly mounted, not just loose in a tray or wooden box.

Make sure wherever you put them that you can easily access them to check acid levels and add water if needed.

And yes, when off-gassing they will need ventilation of some sort, so don't plan on smoking nearby if they are getting a good full charge from the sun or shore power hookup.

I had a frame-mount bracket made to my specs, but its a much smaller battery.

 

[highdesertranger]

for sure hook your batteries into the alternator. if you are driving it's a great supplement. highdesertranger

 

[user 37446]

tx2sturgis

"Two golf cart batteries are heavy, and if possible I would try to centralize the weight. Plus having them closer to the front makes it much easier to run all the wiring.

They should be solidly mounted, not just loose in a tray or wooden box.

I had a frame-mount bracket made to my specs, but its a much smaller battery."

**************************************

Really good point about bolting them down. That's a lot of weight to go "flying" around in the event of a wreck.

 

[user 37446]

As far as you getting by with the 1:1 ratio, as long as you have the alternator wired through a quality (200 amp) continuous duty solenoid to a properly sized fuse to the battery bank with heavy (0 or 2 guage), copper stranded instead of copper coated aluminum wire, and have good crimped fittings (so much detail!) then yes, a healthy alternator wired like that will do the great bulk of your charging while on the highway and the solar is working to top off.  

(OK for grammar or English teachers to comment on the run-on sentence.)

Unless SternWake or someone else sees a hole in your plan, sounds good.  Search the electrical forum for continuous duty solenoid and/or wiring from alternator. I'll try to to find them... Here's a good one, 5 pages... Look at the 1st page and 1st two posts...

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-H...d-Components&highlight=Wiring+from+alternator

A non forum site: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/car-battery-aux-battery-wiring-question.722976/

 

[riggyk]

Yes I have the 200a continuous duty Solenoid so that seems to be the way to go. This is really helpful guys. THANKS

 

[riggyk]

Guys,

I'll be giving Bob's video style a go as seen here. Any words of wisdom or potential considerations given context?

 

[Zizzer_Zazzer_Zuz]

Guys,

I'll be giving Bob's video style a go as seen here. Any words of wisdom or potential considerations given context?

You're several steps ahead of me but I plan to do the same. I have a smaller 120amp solenoid that I may try to use. That will have to wait though.

 

[riggyk]

I'm wondering why one can't just drill right into the floor and run the wire through the interior of the van?

 

[Trebor English]

I think your electricity usage is likely to be less than what your solar panels will provide.  The 1:1 ratio really doesn't matter if you take more from the battery than you give the battery.  If your usage is low your hydrometer may tell you to do the alternator connection later and do other things sooner.

 

[John61CT]

I'm wondering why one can't just drill right into the floor and run the wire through the interior of the van?

many averse to drilling the shell

need to protect against chafing, seal up around the wire (cable glands best)

don't want to disrupt interior insulation, paneling already in place

but otherwise yes no problem

 

[riggyk]

Two golf cart batteries are heavy, and if possible I would try to centralize the weight. Plus having them closer to the front makes it much easier to run all the wiring.

They should be solidly mounted, not just loose in a tray or wooden box.

Make sure wherever you put them that you can easily access them to check acid levels and add water if needed.

And yes, when off-gassing they will need ventilation of some sort, so don't plan on smoking nearby if they are getting a good full charge from the sun or shore power hookup.

I had a frame-mount bracket made to my specs, but its a much smaller battery.

So would it be reasonable to build a wooden enclosure for these, and then strap them together? I just don't see how I'll be able to bolt/mount them otherwise? Also, is it feasible to do battery maintenance by removing the batteries and taking them outside? I'm just not familiar with off-gassing and how to properly ventilate these things and how often/etc. Also wouldn't want to zap myself in the process.... Given that I'd be driving a long distance and charging via Solenoid, would that mean I constantly need to have the windows down or something?

 

[John61CT]

Danger is from concentration only, but some don't like the smell.

Best just like propane, box vented to the outside.

Anchoring so they don't move in an accident is more critical IMO.

 

[SternWake]

The lower the avergae depth of discharge, the higher the solar wattage to battery capacity ratio needs to be.

But other charging sources applied, especially early morning when the batteries can gobble up lots of amps, can mitigate the less than ideal ratio.

If one only every discharges their batteries to 75%, the 1 to 1 ratio should be plenty, but once one appraoches the 50% average depth of discharge there is little hope there will be enough daylight for the solar to finish the job by sundown, even on June 21.

How effective the alternator will be depends on teh vehicle and the thickness and length of the copper circuit.

The vehicles voltage regulator controls the alternator. When it seeks 14.4+ volts, usually for only a few minutes after engine starting, then the alternator will likely be maxed out feeding a depleted battery everything it can take. When it reverts to a nice safe 13.6ish voltage, the amperage flowing into that depleted battery will drop by ~66%.

So those first ~15 minutes of the VR seeking 14.4v plus should be capitalized upon, as it can do in 15 minutes what might take the solar 2 to 3 hours. With a thick copper circuit from alternator to to depleted house battery, there is a chance the vehicles VR will hold higher voltages for longer. With the nearly fully charged battery in between alternator and depleted house battery, the chances are greater that the voltage will drop faster tho the mid 13's and much lesss charging will occur.

Alternator contribution varies greatly among different vehicles. manipulating the Vehicles VR can be accomplished with different degrees of effort and expense.

Easiest to just use thick copper between alternator(+) stud and depleted house battery, with an equally solid/ thick ground path, and get on the highway quickly in the morning, as the temperature could also have a big effect on how long the VR decides to allow 14+ volts, and moving at highways speeds keeps my alternator casing under 130F when maxed out, but Idling hot when maxed out this shoots upto 160f in under 30 seconds.

 

[riggyk]

Guys,

I've been working (much to his annoyance) quite a bit with Optimistic Paranoid on my circuit and I'm having some trouble bringing everything together as it relates to wiring/terminal connections, maintaining buss bars for safety, and some thick wiring near the batteries and inverter of my circuit...... so John suggested bumping up my buss bars and inverter fuse required to accommodate 5/16 studs and thus 2awg wiring. I've attached my idea for a revised diagram and wiring for you all. Now, I'm a bit pulling my hair out over here so bear with me in all this! My questions to ya'll are thus:

1) Given that there would already be 4 connections at the +positive buss, and a 5th needed to add the 2awg-4awg 5/16 connection from the 150amp fuse that connects to the solenoid.... how could I go about sneaking that solenoid connection in given this diagram? Add another Buss... is that possible?

The original intention with the solenoid would obviously have been house battery --> ANL150 Fuse --> Solenoid... but should it now be +buss bar--->ANL150---> Solenoid? Does that make sense? If so, how could I go about adding in a 5th connection here? Combining a 5/16 buss to the pre-existing one and making for two? 

2) Is any of this sound?

 

[riggyk]

Woops sorry...attached is the updated diagram. Basically just swapping an inverter fuse for a beefier 5/16 stud fuse, and both buss bars for something like a Blue Sea 2127 with 5/16 studs as well, all to accommodate that thicker wiring around the battery and inverter. 

(https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...&qid=1496780115&sr=8-2&keywords=blue+sea+2127)