Eco flow river

[bullfrog]

Some batteries come with built in heaters but would need to remained charged in order for them to function. Lithium batteries are getting more idiot proof but even though I mainly use AGMs in a heated slightly warmed area I have used electric bike and tool lithium batteries for years. My understanding is that as long as you don't attempt to charge them while below freezing you are safe. I still don't intentionally let any battery freeze. Even though I seldom go places that are below freezing when I do I use a block heater or some form of usually grid power to keep my batteries above freezing. Frankly I would recommend AGMs just because of the expense involved with lithium batteries should something go wrong, at least until they get a little more advanced and cheaper to purchase.

 

[Scott3569]

Exactly, if you buy a lifepo4 for $800 and a year down the road it craps the bed for what ever reason.. that is a pretty large expense.. especially when you can buy 8 cheap AGM batteries for $800

 

[XERTYX]

My land is in northern Minnesota. I plan to be there in November for hunting season. It can be quite cold. Sometimes below zero. I understand lithium batteries cannot freeze. If there is that danger, would AGM batteries be the better fit anyways. I’m following this thread for similar concerns and wanted to add that question.

Yeah if a lithium battery is charged when the battery is frozen it's a bad day. 

You can make heaters for them. But it will need to be charged to run the heater. So there is an option.

Another option is to leave it inside your cabin or hunting trailer that's heated. Something I plan to add to my van and also once I build a cabin is a 12v Diesel heater.

If you're not familiar with them they burn diesel fuel and generate a TON of heat. But they need a battery to heat up the glow plug and run the fuel pump. They also have aftermarket controllers for them with wifi so you can control them from home if the cabin has internet. 

In Minnesota is it very cloudy most of the time? I remember a thread where someone was in Nebraska or Montana I believe and they weren't having a lot of luck with monocrystalline solar panels because they rarely saw full sun.

I just happened to remember that, they were reccomended to try amorphous solar panels. If your hunting cabin is way back in the woods that might be something to consider. They're the most fragile solar panels so it doesn't make sense to install them near falling tree limbs. But they do work better in low light conditions than mono or polycrystalline panels allegedly. 

Otherwise I highly recommend polycrystalline solar panels. I've had lots of luck with mine even with heavy cloud cover. (I'd wire them in series)

 

[bullfrog]

I seem to have this little black cloud that follows me around like in the old newspaper comic strip. I can just see the camper heater failing in below zero weather and me being prepared sleeping in on a cold clear morning as my expensive lithium battery freezes and the bright sun rises in the cold clear sky hitting my very efficient solar panels. I can also see a Battery Management System circuit board failing and instead of just not charging my batteries bursting into flames. Lithium batteries if monitored can really be a good thing and last a really long time and once all the management quirks are worked out and become super reliable probably will make large amounts of power storage easy and cheap over the long run, but right now there seem to be too many risks involved that need to be addressed. It is one thing to buy a 9 amp tool battery for $120 and another to spend $600 plus for 100 amp house battery.

 

[ldsreliance]

This is incorrect.  The heating film inside the battery does not pull power from the batteries themselves at all.  It can only pull power from a charging source.  So a lithium battery can be completely dead and you can connect it to a charger at 25 degrees F and the heater will kick on and within seconds it will be internally warmer than 32 degrees F and safe for charging.

 

[ldsreliance]

You can make heaters for them. But it will need to be charged to run the heater. So there is an option.

This is incorrect.  See previous post.

 

[ldsreliance]

Exactly, if you buy a lifepo4 for $800 and a year down the road it craps the bed for what ever reason.. that is a pretty large expense.. especially when you can buy 8 cheap AGM batteries for $800

If it "craps the bed" you get it replaced under warranty.  But it is a large purchase and needs to be done with the long term in mind and within the constraints you are working with.  If you have unlimited space and weight carrying capacity and a limited budget, 8 AGM's is a great option.  I still love lead acid batteries!  But if you don't enjoy the luxury of carrying around 500 pounds of batteries that take up over 10 cubic feet then you have to look at other options.  Or if you are more interested in the long term payoff.

 

[bullfrog]

There again technology is improving. I was referring to Do It Yourself batteries and batteries without built in heaters that have been on the market for quite some time of which several have been built, sold and had to be put in heated compartments. Seems the latest and greatest from a year or two ago has been improved and in my opinion will continue to be improved until people's concerns with problems are addressed. Anyone out there offering a fail safe lithium battery with full price 10 year warranty for less than $600? I have bought and used 2 high quality 100 amp AGMs and made them last 7 years for less than $600. Yes eventually when I feel confident and can afford high quality components with a long term reputation of reliability I will switch to lithium if nothing else for the weight savings and available power, but as we have seen they are still making improvements and for me cost too much to take the risk.

 

[Scott3569]

If it "craps the bed" you get it replaced under warranty.  But it is a large purchase and needs to be done with the long term in mind and within the constraints you are working with.  If you have unlimited space and weight carrying capacity and a limited budget, 8 AGM's is a great option.  I still love lead acid batteries!  But if you don't enjoy the luxury of carrying around 500 pounds of batteries that take up over 10 cubic feet then you have to look at other options.  Or if you are more interested in the long term payoff.

Jason, Allow me to be frank you with. I understand and respect your position and opinion.. however I do believe it is a little one sided and you have reason for that, you are in the process of starting a battery company.. 

That said, I have been in sales a few times in my life. In my personal opinion you need to change you sales strategies. many people here could be your customers including me.. But the number 1 thing about successful sales.. in listening to your customers.. 
many people on this forum including me.. Do not have a budget for lifepo4 batteries.. does not matter if they are 100 times better than lead acid.. 

I also believe many people here understand there is a value in lifepo4 yes they are cheaper, they are not as bulky.. 
My power consumptions will not be much more than 2 100ah agm batteries, maybe 3.. 

and I do not see the need to spend $800 on something that I can get for $200 or a little more. that will still last me 5-7 years.. and have a warranty as well..

I appreciate your opinion, I respect your opinion.. And  I am asking you to please stop trying to make a selling point on my threads for lifepo4 batteries..

 

[ldsreliance]

I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Just pointing out misconceptions and fallacies.  I do the same for lead acid batteries.  For example, I did a viral video a year or two ago about the common misconception that lead acid batteries can only be used to 50% DoD and Lithium batteries can be drained to 0% SoC.  That is highly misleading.  So I had a flood of people defending lithium batteries and calling me a hater.

So you can call me a lithium salesman and Youtube viewers can call me a lithium hater but all I am doing is educating people that don't know any better.

 

[ldsreliance]

There again technology is improving.  I was referring to Do It Yourself batteries and batteries without built in heaters that have been on the market for quite some time of which several have been built, sold and had to be put in heated compartments. Seems the latest and greatest from a year or two ago has been improved and in my opinion will continue to be improved until people's concerns with problems are addressed. Anyone out there offering a fail safe lithium battery with full price 10 year warranty for less than $600? I have bought and used 2 high quality 100 amp AGMs and made them last 7 years for less than $600. Yes eventually when I feel confident and can afford high quality components with a long term reputation of reliability I will switch to lithium if nothing else for the weight savings and available power, but as we have seen they are still making improvements and for me cost too much to take the risk.

I totally understand.  I only recently replaced my lead acid batteries myself.  I still have 10 of them, including several Trojans, laying on the floor of my shed waiting for experiments and crazy ideas I might be able to dream up.

 

[Scott3569]

I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Just pointing out misconceptions and fallacies.  I do the same for lead acid batteries.  For example, I did a viral video a year or two ago about the common misconception that lead acid batteries can only be used to 50% DoD and Lithium batteries can be drained to 0% SoC.  That is highly misleading.  So I had a flood of people defending lithium batteries and calling me a hater.

So you can call me a lithium salesman and Youtube viewers can call me a lithium hater but all I am doing is educating people that don't know any better.

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Jason I have nothing against you, I believe the advice you have given to me, is probably sound.. you seem to know what your talking about when it comes to this subject. [/font]

and like I said I appreciate your opinion..

 

[ldsreliance]

Thanks.  I just hope that I don't really come across as a salesman.  That is not my intention.

 

[Scott3569]

So why do you say a deep cycle batter can be discharged below 50% when many others say different?

 

[jimindenver]

Lead acid batteries can be discharged below 50% and not die unless they are already weak. Two things to know. The deeper you discharge any battery including lithium, the more it affects the lifespan. The other thing is that you are discharging below 12 volts you are getting below the usable voltage range for what we run.

On the other hand

If you are going to discharge a lithium battery to 100% you had better make sure it’s one of the brands that actually give you a 120 Ah battery to have 100 usable amp hours. Otherwise you may get as few as 100 cycles draining a lithium to nothing.

Sadly there was so much smoke and mirrors when lithium came out. They charge faster is B.S. They have the maximum charge rate but 40% of that is recommended for the most cycles. So that’s 40 amps per 100 Ah when Lifeline AGM are rated for 500 amps per 100 Ah of battery.

Lithium do taper in the end. Watch a amp meter while charging to 100% and the last 1% takes forever.

The biggest thing to question with warranty is if the company that sold you the battery will be around to honor it in 5 years.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

So why do you say a deep cycle batter can be discharged below 50% when many others say different?

Because people mindlessly parrot 'rules' when they don't understand for whom the rules were developed and why.

Here is real data; the first from U.S. Battery Manufacturing Co., maker of Crown Deep Cycle FLA, SLA, and AGM batteries:


This chart is for Odyssey AGM batteries:


You loose 6% of your lead acid batteries life by discharging past 50% to 80%.  Very important for companies that use 100s or 1000s of batteries.  Not so important for a 2 or 4 battery bank.

 

[bullfrog]

Am I interpreting the top chart to say that if you never go below 75% of full charge you will get almost 4 times the number of cycles you will get by going down to 20% of full charge? What effect does the lower voltage at 80% discharged have on the life and efficiency of 12 volt appliances in general? The Odyssey batteries are expensive high quality batteries that I would hope perform better than most of the other AGMs so the second chart is probably a best case example. Is that chart based on the same number of cycles or over the life of the battery or over a single cycle? It seems the top chart indicates a battery that is discharged to 20% of full charge would only have a life of 675 cycles and this is because you are losing 6% of the batteries capacity. A loss of 24 kAH is a pretty substantial loss isn't it? The charts to me say keeping batteries above 75% full charge will allow me to run 12 volt appliances more efficiently and still put less stress on the system when recharging and the capacity will be higher over the life of the battery. I personally started out discharging batteries to below 50% and charging every couple of days with a generator those batteries for me lasted about 2 to three years, since I have started not letting them go below 50% and generally seldom below 75% bring them up to full charge daily using the generator to bulk charge and solar to top them off the batteries are lasting much longer, most 7 years. This is just my personal experience with many variables so nothing scientific about it. Maybe others can chime in with their experiences.

 

[jimindenver]

All batteries have fewer cycles the deeper they are discharged. Having a big enough bank to keep from deeply discharging is a great idea as long as you have the budget for cost, room and weight.

Odyssey batteries are a good example of something being the best of but is it the best at what you need it to be for your purposes. Odyssey batteries are the best for rough service such as ATV’s and jet ski’s but not so much at being the best deep cycle. Again, Lifeline is the cream of the crop in AGM for a number of reasons and you pay for it too. I would have gladly replaced my 11 year old bank with a new set if it hadn’t been for the weight and the fact that lithium are becoming comparable in cost.

Actually, going directly to the manufacturer and waiting for the slow shipping I could have 600 usable amp hours in lithium for what it cost to replace my Lifeline’s. You can pick and choose what cells, BMS, gauge of wiring and features. Shipping included I had a customer get three 200 Amp hour lithium batteries for $2100.

 

[bullfrog]

^^^I've been playing lately with old lithium cells from tools and bicycles trying to learn about their limitations and see what others have found. It seems the modifications to my present solar system would be minor but still have a learning curve. My present AGMs are still doing fine and are about 3 years from needing replacement. My biggest concern is it seems there are still problems with lithium batteries that are getting solved by more electrical components that are subject to failure. I see heaters being built in and multiple BMSs installed as some worry about failures. Heck I see some recommending not using a BMS as their tolerances and settings may reduce the life of the battery. I guess as long as what I have is workable and proven to be reliable I am not willing to take the financial risk to use lighter, smaller and possibly better performing batteries. I know in the battery powered tools it took several years for the manufacturers to get to where they are now, a huge improvement in the new tools and batteries from the older tools. I hope and expect the same to happen with RV systems as well, I just don't think it has happened quite yet! I guess the quality of the Chinese built electrical components is my biggest concern as it seems there is a huge difference in price and options of those components.

 

[ldsreliance]

Sorry for the late reply. Looks like Spaceman Spiff replied and did a better job explaining succinctly than I would have.

To re-iterate, ANY battery of any chemistry will lose overall life (measured in cycle life) the deeper it discharges. Discharging a Lithium battery down to 20% state of charge WILL result in a lower lifespan than discharging that battery to 30% state of charge. It may not be a massive difference, but there is a difference. And yes, that applies to BattleBorn, too, despite their marketing.

People repeat these "rules" like the 50% rule for lead acid but don't take the time to learn why. And thus they don't understand that these "rules" are not really hard and fast rules, have numerous exceptions, etc. And then people add to these "rules" with their own fictional extrapolations like if you discharge a lead acid battery below 50% it will die. That simply is not true.