Cold weather and floor insulation

[Spicyguy]

Looking for flooring options for a stepvan that will predominantly be used in cold weather (like Colorado winter temps) and will need to withstand a lot of animal traffic and mud and melting snow, and damage from ski boots etc etc.  Currently have aluminum diamond plate on floor which would be perfect due to durability except it isn't insulated. Very little floor surface though will actually be exposed because with current design, most of the vans area will be covered by cabinets or a bed. So a few questions to those who have lived in these conditions:

Is throwing down a carpet runner sufficient? Is the process that some go through to insulate the entire floor with rigid foam and then put subfloor and finished flooring on top that much warmer and worthwhile?

Are there condensation issues that can affect floor if cabin temps are kept in the 70s or does heat stratification generally mean condensation sticks to roof and walls and doesn't affect floor?

Would applying some sort of barrier under the vehicle assist? Like a foil reflectix underneath vehicle to trap heat radiating from under vehicle?

Simplicity, durability, and frugality are important to me....aesthetics not so much.

 

[Spicyguy]

Oh, and a further question somewhat related. If bed is elevated 4 feet above an uninsulated floor, is there a danger of condensation underneath and mold growth? Does using slats under mattress instead of solid plywood solve this problem by creating space for mattress to breathe?

Very inexperienced with cold weather, hope to draw on others experience with these matters.

 

[highdesertranger]

here's what I do know.

aluminum is an excellent conductor.
the aluminum floor will be the same temp as the ambient air.
IMO you need some type of insulation and a plywood floor wouldn't hurt.
then throw a throw rug over that.

highdesertranger

 

[Weight]

I used 1/2 foil faced polyiso foam board with plywood over to protect the foam. I had experience in winter temps with metal floors and won't do that again. two brands, R-Max and R-Tech.

 

[B and C]

^^^ What Weight said. For durability you might put down linoleum over the plywood and then a rubber backed rug. I have a pair of down booties that I use inside when it is cold that you may find useful.

 

[MrNoodly]

How about rubber floor tiles like those used in weight rooms?

 

[maki2]

Insulation is to keep heat from escaping it is not there to prevent the cold from getting in.

Heat moves towards cold. Metal conducts heat very quickly so a metal floor, window frame etc will quickly remove the heat from the interior of your dwelling space. Many object such as electronics and also the radiator in your vehicle that need to remove the heat have metal cooling fins which draw the heat the heat away from those objects such as the hot liquid in a radiator.

Most vans do have metal surfaces all around them. A few vans have fiberglass bodies for the rear. Fiberglass does not conduct the heat as rapidly as metal.

The goal is to slow down the escape of the heat using materials (including an air gaps) that don't rapidly conduct heat. The resistance to conduction heat of various materials is called the R value. The R in R-value stands for resistance.

 

[maki2]

Insulation is to keep heat from escaping it is not there to prevent the cold from getting in.

Heat moves towards cold. Metal conducts heat very quickly so a metal floor, window frame etc will quickly remove the heat from the interior of your dwelling space or quickly bring it into a cooler space. Many object such as electronics and also the radiator in your vehicle that need to remove the heat have metal cooling fins to help quickly dissipate the heat.

The goal is to slow down the escape of the heat using materials (including an air gaps) that don't rapidly conduct heat. The resistance to conduction heat of various materials is called the R value. The R in R-value stands for resistance.

Most people do not understand how insulation for keeping a space comfortable for dwelling works. Remember it is not about keeping the cold out, it is actually all about slowing down the movement of heat which is true for winter and of course also true in summer.

So if you are trying to stay warm in winter then you don't want to have metal surfaces that extend through to the exterior of the van as they will conduct the heat out of your van very quickly.

Modern metal window frames made for homes now have thermal break materials between an outer metal frame and an inner metal frame to slow down the transfer of heat. Decoupling of the layers of metals helps.

 

[MrNoodly]

How about 12V in-floor radiant heating?

 

[Spicyguy]

Hmmm...so it seems that I cant escape floor insulation according to most replies and the logic makes sense. I remember Bob from this forum stating in one of his videos however that he lived in alaska without any floor insulation. Wonder how he did that?

I understand the cold floor pulling heat out but my understanding is that because heat rises it would mostly remain up by roof and there could be a temperature differential as much as 30 or 40 degrees between the ceiling and floor. Does floor insulation really alter this? Also, because the column of air seperating the warm from the cold wouldnt there be minimal conductive loss at the floor...and if diamond plate were polished and reflective it would inhibit radiative heat loss. Im okay with floor being 20 degrees if air up in bunk is 60 and it doesnt necesitate a lot more energy to maintain this.

Bobs no floor insulation video intrigued me. Either he is part yeti and the cold doesnt affect him or there is something to the no floor insulation thing...

 

[B and C]

IIRC, Bob had a cube van and it had a wood floor. Some R value in wood depending on thickness. He also ran heaters 24/7.

To hold heat in, put the most insulation in the roof.

If animal traffic means dogs, they lose heat through their foot pads.

 

[highdesertranger]

yeah Bob had a wood floor and if I recall correctly he threw some carpet over it.

believe me if you are going to be in cold weather you do not want a bare uninsulated aluminum floor. your feet will stick to it in the morning. LOL

highdesertranger

 

[Dingfelder]

How about rubber floor tiles like those used in weight rooms?

I got inch thick ones from Amazon and really like them.  They are easy on the joints and don't rise high enough to get in the way of opening my little fridge, so yahoo there too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BXTJDTP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I originally got them mostly because my dog has to jump on and off my bed, which is unusually high, since it has a storage pedestal underneath.  He's older, and it's a lot of shock to his bones.  I think it probably helped a bit with that.  It's nice and firm underfoot, but notably softer than just a plain floor, even with the carpet I laid on top.  Even with the extra insulation, it was still plenty cold down there during the worst of the winter, but nothing some socks and indoor slippers couldn't handle.  I spend more of my time on my bed than at my table, anyway, so no biggie for me.

FWIW, I got horrific mold under a table in my bathroom and a bit on a couple of other walls right beneath my windows, but none anywhere under the foam floor tiles plus carpet situation that I have now.  I was quite surprised.  

Re mold under a bed, yes, you can get it.  Water can condense under it just like it does on the outside of a glass.  Slats instead of a solid foundation can help, or you can do what i did -- drill tons of holes into a solid piece of plywood, making sure there is air flow underneath.  Mine is 3/4 inch birch plywood and there's never been a hint of a creak in it even with me at 220-ish and my 65 pound dog throwing ourselves onto it.  You can also help out the situation a lot more by getting a roll of that kind of plastic fabric that you see here:

https://www.mattressinsider.com/mattress-condensation-prevention.html

This stuff is strong and stiff, and helps provide air flow too.

P.S.:  I put a 3 inch foam topper on my mattress.  I'm hoping that if something goes wrong toward the top, I can just throw out the topper instead of the whole mattress.  That's really important for something like a spill, which would be extremely hard to air out properly (and not get mold) if I spilled a cup of coffee or whatever directly onto my mattress.  And in case I ever find mold growing when changing my sheets.

 

[Dingfelder]

Hmmm...so it seems that I cant escape floor insulation according to most replies and the logic makes sense. I remember Bob from this forum stating in one of his videos however that he lived in alaska without any floor insulation. Wonder how he did that?

He wore boots all the time.

I understand the cold floor pulling heat out but my understanding is that because heat rises it would mostly remain up by roof and there could be a temperature differential as much as 30 or 40 degrees between the ceiling and floor. Does floor insulation really alter this? 

Both with and without insulation, my prebuilt trailer floor was much colder at foot level than just a couple of feet higher.

Im okay with floor being 20 degrees if air up in bunk is 60 and it doesnt necesitate a lot more energy to maintain this.

I don't think it takes a ton more energy, if you're really going to be high enough to feel only the 60.  I have a portable electric heater upon on a high countertop and it kicks in according to the heat where it's at, not the heat level at the floor.  The coldness of the floor can stay put for a long time.  It usually only kicks in for a few minutes every once in a while.

If you're like me, one of your major concerns when there is a temperature differential is going to be mold and/or mildew forming at the lower levels, especially where there is less air circulation, like in odd nooks or places protected from air flow.  So these days I keep a small fan going in the place where that's a problem, a de-humidifier, and keep a good number of those disposable dehumidifier containers around at all levels.  I can get a cup a day or more of water in my humidifier when it's cold.

 

[MrNoodly]

...That's really important for something like a spill, which would be extremely hard to air out properly (and not get mold) if I spilled a cup of coffee or whatever directly onto my mattress...

My mattress is all foam, like a huge sponge, so I have it in a water repellant bed wetter bag.

 

[ckelly78z]

I can't imagine the heat sucking properties of a uninsulated metal floor in the Winter. It may not pull heated air out of the cabin, but will cool anything it touches including your bare feet. When my feet, or hands get cold, I am miserable, maybe you have better blood circulation than I do, but even the dogs deserve better.

 

[MrNoodly]

... including your bare feet. When my feet, or hands get cold, I am miserable...

I use these really good foot insulators called "shoes." 

 

[Weight]

One thing I stopped after my discharge is wearing shoes to sleep. Warm floor, warm feet, warm me.

 

[Dingfelder]

I keep those soft cloth shoe-type house slippers by my bed, for when I'm not in it. It's much more efficient to warm my feet up a bit than to heat the whole area up. They never go outside, so they're clean enough to put on a bedside table.

I agree that cold hands and feet are miserable. They quickly make my whole body feel cold ... but if I keep them warm, the whole rest of me pretty quickly feels warm too. So when it's really cold, I wear merino wool socks plus a pair of cheap cotton socks over them. Gets very comfy that way, and one sock provides traction that helps keep the other one up.

 

[BelgianPup]

Are you familiar with stall mats for livestock (usually horses)? I think they're somewhat expensive, but they will tolerate a lot of weight (an average horse weighs 1000 lbs, divided between four small hooves).

But there similar mats for people use that are cheaper, smaller, and thinner, that are interlocking, and can be cut to fit. Try googling something like 'interlocking rubber mats'.