Caution for RV Owners Using Lithium Batteries

[Spicoli]

Lithium battery owners: this interview Pippi Peterson did in September with industry expert Mark Snyder regarding solar systems cautions owners about battery fires. He has built or installed over 10,000 systems and is an advocate for Lead Acid over lithium battery technology (I found that interesting). Among other things he says "you have to get a mobile-rated lithium battery" for your RV but apparently there is only one manufacturer with a UL rating for mobile applications. He goes on to say: "... fires are a very serious problem in mobile applications b/c installers are not paying attention to the charge/discharge rates" (causing fires). [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]He says spraying water on an active Lithium battery fire can cause the battery to explode with shrapnel and that most owners and fire departments do not know how to handle that[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]. He says Lithium fires must be extinguished with chemical (what kind he does not say!). Lithium owners should do their due diligence and find out what chemical to extinguish a fire with.[/font]

And he also said [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Lithium battery [/font]manufacturers are now coming out with bulletins dialing back the 10 year life expectancy b/c they are not lasting 10 years, and [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]manufacturers [/font]are also advising Lithium battery owners not to discharge them past 70%. He says you need to leave a reserve capacity in Lithium batteries to reduce fires and to maximize battery life. He further commented that Lithium manufacturers did very little testing in "Small DC Operations like RVs" (small 12V systems vs larger 48V home and commercial systems) and thus he sees a lot of problems with RV owners using Lithium batteries improperly (usually using too many AC appliances at once thus exceeding published discharge rates/terminal voltage). Of Lithium he also says: "we've had a lot of people with problems with them so I'm cautioning them that they have to be dialed in perfectly." The basic problem for Lithium owners is they take the terminal voltages too low (even below 11.5 V cutoff) and "then bad things happen" (battery overheats and then system shuts down or even causes fires in some cases). [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]So he says he[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] prefers Lead Acid batteries over [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Lithium b/c LA owners have higher reserve capacity (50%+) so terminal voltages usually stay higher in LA systems than with Lithium systems so LA owners rarely get to over-temp situations (fires).[/font]

Long and very informative interview but what he says about Lithium battery fires is important so Lithium owners should be very careful to always keep a close eye on your Lithium Battery terminal voltages (esp during high appliance usage) and don't drain them to 0% (for increased battery life and less chance of fires). [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Lithium o[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]wners should also do their due [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]diligence[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] and find out what chemical to extinguish a Lithium fire with![/font]

 

[maki2]

Go ask your local fire department how they would handle it. Ask them how you should handle it. They are the experts, go and talk to them. Don't just make a judgement based on what someone says in an interview on the internet. Or even what I am saying in this posting from information that I gleaned from reading articles at universities and battery company information pages. Go talk to the fire department, they won't mind in the least, part of the job is educational outreach. Maybe I will stop in and talk to them myself next time I go to the drugstore as they are right next door to it. I do have Li-ion batteries in some of my power tools, my cell phone, etc.

Actually Lithium Ion Li-ion batteries, contain very little lithium from what I have read about them, the source for quote is linked.
Here is the recommendation for extinguishing them that I found on the internet.
"For best results dowsing a Li-ion fire, use a foam extinguisher, CO2, ABC dry chemical, powdered graphite, copper powder or soda (sodium carbonate) as you would extinguish other combustible fires." https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion

The person you are quoting was thinking that it takes a Class D dry powder extinguisher. That is true for lithium metal fires but that type of extinguisher does not appear to be necessary for Li-ion batteries as they don't contain all that much lithium in them. Of course Class D will work, the dry powder in it forms a crust over the material that is on fire and that smothers the fire. However a Class D extinguisher minimum size is the 30lb cylinder types, but the dry powder is much heavier than other media so that brings the actual weight up to 53lbs for a class D extinguisher. You would not want to run out and buy one if you don't actually need it to put out a Li-Ion battery fire. So go and talk to the fire department about how to put out a battery fire, they train for this stuff. That is the best advice of all, have them teach you what you need to know.

Sometimes people such as that expert have not done enough research on the subject they are talking about. He might be a great independent electrical contractor but that is not the same deep background knowledge as being a chemical and electrical engineer who designs batteries or even a fire safety expert.

Fire departments buy that dry media in bulk and shovel it onto the fire. They do have it but they might not use it as a first choice for a Li-ion battery fire. But they would if they were dealing with a lithium metal fire or a magnesium metal fire, or other metals that are prone to catching fire. They use it in situations such as at a manufacturing plant where that metal was being used to make products. I know that I had to use special tools and great care to prevent an accidental fire when I was installing some magnesium metal parts on the airplane at Boeing, no sparks allowed.

 

[Spicoli]

Thanks for posting the chemical type above but apparently (from what I just read) Lithium battery owners should contact their particular manufacturer since different Lithium Ion battery types and brands require different types of fire extinguisher chemicals (so I just learned). Contacting the fire dept may or may not be helpful since they probably do not know what type/brand Lithium battery you have. And I made no judgement (except to be cautious) - I was simply passing on a warning to battery owners from a recognized independent industry expert. I do not understand why you would discard his advice so easily.

The interview is a warning to RV owners based on Lithium battery fires this expert has actually witnessed in RV's because owners are not paying attention to the charge/discharge curves of their particular battery during the system design and installation. He says that in order for Lithium batteries to be safe from fires they must be installed correctly and the owners must be keenly aware of the charge/discharge parameters for their particular battery(s). He specifically said he has witnessed fire departments that would not attempt to put out fires in certain cases because they did not know what type fire they were faced with.

It is a great interview with an independent industry veteran with many years of experience and over 10,000 installations ... and RV owners using this technology should be aware of these battery characteristics so they do not get hurt.

 

[maki2]

"He says that in order for Lithium batteries to be safe from fires they must be installed correctly and the owners must be keenly aware of the charge/discharge parameters for their particular battery(s)."

That advice is true for all battery types.

That guy has a personal agenda and personal opinion. That is completely normal. I am not discarding what he is saying about needing to have everything set up just right on the installation in order to prevent fires. Nor am I discarding advice that it requires specific types of extinguishers for specific fires.

Of course the fire department will let certain fires burn themselves out if they don't know what they are dealing with because it is possible to have some violent reactions when putting certain substances onto a fire and also it can create toxic fumes at times. When I was younger working at Boeing someone set a large tub skid vat of a hot liquid used to dip drill bits and such into after they were sharpened to prevent corrosion and to protect the sharp edges of the drills. They inadvertently placed it under the fresh air intake for my work group. It came into the building, we breathed it in, when it hit the moisture in our lungs those fumes turned the moisture into an acid. Water on some fires where substances are unkown can indeed be dangerous and make the air become a lethal substance. In other instances it can become an accelerate to fires. This article is an example of where the fire fighters need to let the fire burn itself out. https://www.firehouse.com/operation...ighter-training-extinguishing-magnesium-fires

In my later years at Boeing as a lead I got a special extra assignment given to me. I had to be the in-house person who was in charge of managing, within our 400 person work group, all of the chemical storage, compliance with EPA regulations, compliance with fire department regulations, compliance with all the worker health and safety regulations and compliance as well as the handling and disposal of the hazardous waste for all the various chemicals that were in use in our area. I also had to educate all the other employees within the various teams in the shop. There were more than 1,000 different chemicals and products in the area as we were a production and assembly shop that also included a specialty paint shop. I had to attend a considerable amount of training and I also worked with the company health and safety department and their hazardous waste and chemical safety division. In my work I ended up writing articles that then become the company wide policies on how to reduce hazardous waste in the manufacturing areas. I was considered the best person in the company in that position and my work group never got even one correction on any issues from the EPA, fire safety or any of the internal inspections that happened to make sure the company avoided EPA fines. Remember you never know who is going to be in a forum or what their background is they are strangers to you. You thought I was shutting out that experts advice. I did not, what I said is that it was incomplete information.

 

[Elbear1]

Lithium ion is totally different than lifepo4

 

[jonyjoe303]

I encountered a worst case scenario lithium fire in my van. This was due to my fault when I shorted out a lifepo4 cell. I was able to put it out using water. The trick is to pour water on it right away to prevent it from spreading to other cells. I saw first hand the power of lithium when mistreated.

The first rule is never overcharge a lithium battery, having a good bms is good but also have an overvoltage protection relay as a deadman switch as a backup, and second rule never puncture or shortout a lithium battery that is very bad. Its rare for lithium to catch on fire for no reason. It will usually happen when charging or from impact damage. 

I use both lifepo4 and also li-ion for the past 4 years, if used properly they are both very safe. I don't see myself going back to lead acid. When I had lead acid I was always worry it was going to explode and spread acid everywhere but that never happen. All batteries to some extent have hazards you need to watch for.

 

[brahmon]

way overpriced? high risk of catostrophic failure? take my money!

 

[Fivealive]

This reminds me of a boat fire that killed 34 people a few months ago. They were suspecting a lithium battery was the suspect, article:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea...-fire-Coast-Guard-warns-mariners-14432894.php

After reading your post and now looking back at this article, the fireman are using water to put it out and now I'm wondering if that made things worse for the people on the boat.

 

[maki2]

If you want to know what fire suppression measures are required for any type of battery you purchase all you have to do is ask for a copy of the SDS sometimes called the MSDS document. It will give you that information. The law requires that it be contained in the SDS along with other health and safety precautions. Generally the SDS tend to be available from the manufactures website. But once in a while you might have to contact them to obtain one. The law says they must make it available to you upon request. Section 5 of these documents is about fire fighting measures.

For instance I just did a quick search to find an SDS for a battleborn LiPO4 product. Here is the link, look at section 5. This section is in all MSDS documents for all types of batteries.
https://s2.solacity.com/docs/BattleBorn/MATERIAL_SAFETY_DATA_SHEET.pdf

Here is another SDS this one from Rellion. Again look at section 5.
https://ceb8596f236225acd007-8e9532....cf5.rackcdn.com/docs/product/SDSDoc_2019.pdf

But you should still talk to the fire department to learn how to handle such an emergency to the best effect for putting out a fire. Just knowing what you can put on a fire is not always enough. One way applying a fire suppression material can be more effective than others and you won't get that information out of the SDS.

 

[highdesertranger]

that's funny how one MSDS says to use water to put out the fire and the other says water causes the release of combustible gases.

also on both MSDS's they refer to them as Lithium Ion batteries in various places. wasn't someone saying that Lithium ION are the dangerous ones?

highdesertranger

 

[maki2]

that's funny how one MSDS says to use water to put out the fire and the other says water causes the release of combustible gases.

also on both MSDS's they refer to them as Lithium Ion batteries in various places.  wasn't someone saying that Lithium ION are the dangerous ones?

highdesertranger

I was not choosing specific batteries to present, I was just grabbing the ones with an SDS that turned up first in the results to show what an SDS looks like and how the information is presented within them. Obviously what I presented were two different types of products so that would be why there was not a match in fire suppression. I choose two different products to show that an SDS is created for specific products, I wanted to show that there are differences between what is said about a specific battery and that it might not be the same fire suppression materials for a different battery even though both contain lithium.

These are just examples of how an SDS looks in terms of what is presented in section 5 regarding a situation for a fire. What I presented has nothing to do with an actual choice of what to use or what not to use. You seem to think that somehow I was making a battery recommendation but that is not the case. I was only discussing how to find out the information regarding the battery you might choose to buy. That posting about SDS was for educational purposes only to show people what an SDS looks like and what section of the SDS contains the information regarding how to extinguish any fire that might develop.

If you want to buy a specific battery then you would look for the SDS specific to the exact product you are investigating as a future purchase or in some cases the battery(s) you already own.

 

[highdesertranger]

both MSDS's show the batteries have the same chemistry, Lithium Iron Phosphate. I don't understand the two different types theory. also both MSDS's also refer to them as Lithium Ion.

so to recap I found it odd one would say one thing and the other somethin else when they are the same type of battery. I also found it odd that both of the MSDS's refered to them as Lithium Ion when I have seen people on the forum say that Lithium Ion are dangerous but Lithium Iron Phosphate are safe.

I am just pointing out what the MSDS's say. BTW I know nothing about Lithium batteries I am no expert and don't pretend to be one. I just found it odd.

highdesertranger

 

[ZoNiE]

I'm considering a Tesla battery module.

There are some good project blogs out there, and if any battery is mobile rated, it's going to be a traction battery from an EV. the single 24V 5.2KWh Battery will outperform my four GC2's for much less weight and space. I can also then use my Sensata Dimensions Industrial grade pure sine wave inverter...

A good 40A 24V-12V DC-DC converter for the house stuff and I should be all set.

I may have 8 of them coming out of my car in the next year...

 

[wayne49]

The recent dive boat fire was caused by Li-ion batteries used for submersibles, and other electronic devices, that were plugged in, below deck, wherever the passengers could find an available outlet. Inadequate ventilation for heat dispersal, too many units in small spaces.

The boat was not equipped to safely handle voracious charging needs.

This was not just a Li-ion battery, all by its lonesome, bursting into flames.

 

[Elbear1]

What I was trying to explain to the OP in PM was he wants to buy $500+ on AGM for 150Ah usable and has to run 2/3 in a off location far from main battery. I explained how much solar is needed and that AGM's need filled 100% everyday or regularly. Which is quite a bit more than peole think. 3-4:1 watts to amps based on lifelines formula I modified for solar which I find very good: (dod/100) x (ah / c - Imp) + 3 ab

That he could get a single single Valence 138AH for under $500, have 90% the reserve, half the solar, 1/4 the weight, and all without running 2/3 of the batteries 10ft from the original to a modified compart.

 

[Firebuild]

This reminds me of a boat fire that killed 34 people a few months ago. They were suspecting a lithium battery was the suspect, article:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea...-fire-Coast-Guard-warns-mariners-14432894.php

After reading your post and now looking back at this article, the fireman are using water to put it out and now I'm wondering if that made things worse for the people on the boat.

Unfortunately, all the fatalities on the Conception (one of my favorite dive boats) were sleeping in the bunks below deck when this fire broke out. It's assumed that they died of smoke inhalation long before any fire crews could come to the aid of the ship, so chemicals or water, it would not have made a difference. Their remote location in shallow water made it very difficult for fire crews to get in there.  Though the fire is still under investigation, the boat's builder speculates that the sheer quantity of rechargeable devices plugged in could have caused an electrical fire. At the time the Conception was built, no one could have foreseen this as the technology for all these rechargeables didn't even exist. That system met the standards from the time it was built but had not been updated; I don't think this issue was even on the radar of the industry before this. But if you think about it, there were 40 people on the boat, and each most likely had a cell phone. About half probably had cameras, and some most likely brought laptops and tablets. That's a lot of chargeable devices.

 

[Firebuild]

The recent dive boat fire was caused by Li-ion batteries used for submersibles, and other electronic devices, that were plugged in, below deck, wherever the passengers could find an available outlet. Inadequate ventilation for heat dispersal, too many units in small spaces.

The boat was not equipped to safely handle voracious charging needs.

This was not just a Li-ion battery, all by its lonesome, bursting into flames.

This is an assumption - that part of the report is not out yet - but it's a pretty good bet.

 

[IGBT]

How could a dive boat with that many people not have smoke detectors?

Our 34 foot sailboat has 2 smoke detectors and 2 carbon monoxide detectors, checked monthly.

They go off when I make slightly burned toast or a bagel, very sensitive.

Most accidents are just irresponsible people

 

[Firebuild]

How could a dive boat with that many people not have smoke detectors?

Our 34 foot sailboat has 2 smoke detectors and 2 carbon monoxide detectors, checked monthly.

They go off when I make slightly burned toast or a bagel, very sensitive.

Most accidents are just irresponsible people

It had smoke detectors. Unfortunately, they were below deck, and not wired to sound on the upper deck, where the crew members were sleeping. The way the fire burned, and the way the access from the bunk room was set up, the fire could probably only have been stopped or reported by those on deck, but they didn't know about it until they saw the flames. They were standard household smoke detectors, which is all they were required to have.  The negligence investigation of the boat owners revolves only around whether or not a crew member was awake and on watch, as is required. Otherwise, they were in compliance on everything - though I think we will see those regulations change now that a disaster has occurred.

 

[Spicoli]

What I was trying to explain to the OP in PM was he wants to buy $500+ on AGM for 150Ah usable and has to run 2/3 in a off location far from main battery. I explained how much solar is needed and that AGM's need filled 100% everyday or regularly. Which is quite a bit more than peole think. 3-4:1 watts to amps based on lifelines formula I modified for solar which I find very good: (dod/100) x (ah / c - Imp) + 3 ab

That he could get a single single Valence 138AH for under $500, have 90% the reserve, half the solar, 1/4 the weight, and all without running 2/3 of the batteries 10ft from the original to a modified compart.

I understand (somewhat) the pros/cons of Lithium but decided to stay on AGM/SLA. And I was very happy with the 50Ah usable I had with the single 100 Ah SLA battery. I do not live in my RV I just use it for vacation/travel. So going to the three 100 Ah (150 Ah usable) will now be a huge luxury. So to charge the 3 100 Ah batteries I have the E350 engine when driving, and my just purchased 300 Watts portable solar, and/or the onboard 2.7 kW genset. BTW I found a spot for all 3 house batteries together side-by-side (see my other post).