Can you make your own lithium batteries?

[Natgreen]

And...is it worth the effort? Is it significantly cheaper? Where do I get started?

 

[MrNoodly]

Can I? No.

 

[geogentry]

And...is it worth the effort? Is it significantly cheaper? Where do I get started?

Can you make individual batteries? No
If your asking can you make a lithium battery bank to use with a solar system, then yes it can be done.

Where to start? Go to YouTube and search for: How to make an 18650 battery pack.

It is cheaper. About one half to one third of the cost.
Is it worth it? Matter of opinion. It can be s great deal cheaper than buying a premade lithium battery from a store since they are around the $1000 mark. BUT there is work involved. And it depends on your skill set. Watch a few videos. Get an idea of the work involved.

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[Gypsy Freedom]

i think, at this point in time and complexity of lithium batteries the answer is if you have to ask, then no

lithium batteries are delicate and require complex management systems or you run the risk of ruining them and with some chemistries, catching them on fire.

if one wants to take the time to really study up and they are comfortable working with electricity you can certainly do better than store bought. but as prices come down it is getting harder. you can still beat the prices a lot if willing to buy used/recovered/salvage cells. but their are risks there. also, if you want to build a large high end lifepo4 bank you can do well.

there are a couple high quality companies putting out some pretty decent 100 amp hour lifepo4 batteries for under $1000. battle born and trojan trillium come to mind. you can find the components online to build a similar battery for around $6-700, cheaper if you source generic china parts. but then aside from your time, you lose any real warranty.

so my opinion is yes it can be done, but i dont suggest it to anyone other than the geeks.

me personally i would do it for my own rig when my current fla bank goes to the scrap yard. but i would not even consider doing it for a customer or even a friend

 

[Wabbit]

You can with some skills\knowledge. YouTube has vids on it. Also check out a video or two on thermal runaway. Should be some on the what happens if they get punctured also(pretty much same thing). Be aware if your buying new 18650 batteries, counterfeits can be an issue.

 

[geogentry]

18650 battery. 3 ah, 3.7 volts, $3-$4 each. (Not junk batteries... Panasonic)
1) 4 batteries in series. 14.8 volts @ 3 ah ($12)
2) make 33 of these series setups. ($396)
3) connect the series setups you made all in parallel.
4) use a BMS (battery management system) to protect your battery. (price varies)
5) end result: lithium battery 14.8 volts @ 99 ah
(ah=amp hours)

Contrary to what you may hear it is not rocket science. It is not scary geek stuff. A LOT of people are making banks. All the way up to 1.5 kwatts

You can save money by buying used cells.

Do the search as I suggested. You can watch the thing being made. After you catch several different people make the battery banks. THEN decide if you want to make your own.

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[Gypsy Freedom]

18650 lithium ion cells, aside from the thermal run away problem do not have that great of life cycles 300-500 cycles. some places claiming 800. i can get more than that out of flooded lead acid.

while 3.7 or so is the nominal voltage for a lithium ion cell(18650s for ex) a fully charged cell is over 4 volts. if you put 4 in series you have more than 16 volts. only a few inverters out there that can handle that without faulting.

if you use only 3 in series then you run into a problem of finding an inverter that will not shut of due to low voltage before you have used up the capacity of the battery. yes there are a couple out there, but they are not cheap.

due to these 2 issues you typically cant access much of the battery capacity. so your cost per useable amp hour goes up

most of the cheap BMS (battery management system) units out there have extremely low through put. if you want a BMS that can handle powering a 2000 watt inverter, that is going to cost some $


there is not much to gain with trying to replace a 12v rv/boat system with a cheap lithium ion (18650) battery

the volts with the lifepo4 are much more usable. they have the really long life cycles measured in the thousands, and are considerably safer

can it be done, sure. is it cost effective to simply build something to replace your rv battery. only you can decide.

i highly suggest people do more than watch a couple vids before embarking on a home built lithium battery of any chemistry. if you're into that stuff, it can be a great learning and satisfying experience.

 

[Ticklebellly]

If you are asking if an individual can source Li cells and make a battery, then yes. And it is relatively easy. I have made both LiFePo4 12 Volt (nominal) batteries and a number of Li Ion 12 Volt (nominal) batteries. I bought LiFePo4 cells from the pallet of a bulk buy by a EV enthusiast. I recycled several Lap top battery pack cells for the Li Ion based batteries. Cell balancing bits and other BMS devices are available online. At the time, I saved upwards of 25% but prices of commercial offering are coming down every day so the savings are not that big right now. Installing Lithium has some inherent savings over Lead Acid technology and those savings need to be considered in the big picture. I don't know how to value the knowledge gained by doing it myself.

 

[geogentry]

18650 lithium ion cells, aside from the thermal run away problem do not have that great of life cycles 300-500 cycles. some places claiming 800. i can get more than that out of flooded lead acid.

But as your lead acid ages the available voltage drops.

Apple company claims at least 1000 cycles from their device batteries.

while 3.7 or so is the nominal voltage for a lithium ion cell(18650s for ex) a fully charged cell is over 4 volts. if you put 4 in series you have more than 16 volts. only a few inverters out there that can handle that without faulting.

You should not charge a Li battery over the nominal. To charge the battery to the maximum voltage will overheat the battery and drastically shorten its life

if you use only 3 in series then you run into a problem of finding an inverter that will not shut of due to low voltage before you have used up the capacity of the battery. yes there are a couple out there, but they are not cheap.

And that is why you have a BMS

due to these 2 issues you typically cant access much of the battery capacity. so your cost per useable amp hour goes up

Sure you can. 50% just like the lead acid your using

most of the cheap BMS (battery management system) units out there have extremely low through put. if you want a BMS that can handle powering a 2000 watt inverter, that is going to cost some $

Sigh. This is not the place to teach you how to divide up the series banks, with a BMS on each, and thus does not require that one BMS handle all the current.

there is not much to gain with trying to replace a 12v rv/boat system with a cheap lithium ion (18650) battery

It seems you are not aware that Tesla uses a battery bank comprised of 18650 batteries in the electric car.

"Tesla uses Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries in its cars. The Tesla Model S and Mode X use the18650 battery.Oct 13, 2018"

It seems Tesla does not agree with you

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My advice to the original poster is:

First step watch the videos. See what is involved in making a battery bank.

Decide if you want to do the work. It is not vastly complicated. It may be tedious to you though.

You will need some tools to do the construction.

Decide if you want to spend the money on tools and batteries.

This is not a project you can successfully do in one or two days.


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[Gypsy Freedom]

But as your lead acid ages the available voltage drops. no, the amp hour capacity drops. but as lithium batteries age, they lose capacity as well.

Apple company claims at least 1000 cycles from their device batteries. there is a big difference in claiming, and guaranteeing, they are also not using 18650 form factor.


You should not charge a Li battery over the nominal. To charge the battery to the maximum voltage will overheat the battery and drastically shorten its life. this is completely false, to get any where near full or even 80% capacity you need to charge above nominal. standard full cell for lithium ion is about 4.2v with an empty cell at about 3.0v. sure staying away from the high end and low end a bit will give more life. but at the nominal voltage you are claiming to charge to the battery is only about half full.


And that is why you have a BMS no, a battery managment system is to protect the battery. it has nothing to do with what voltage an inverter is capable of using


Sure you can. 50% just like the lead acid your using what? only discharge your lipo to 50% kinda negates the benefits of lithium


Sigh. This is not the place to teach you how to divide up the series banks, with a BMS on each, and thus does not require that one BMS handle all the current. sigh... lol a 4s BMS rated at 10 amps will monitor 4 batteries in series and safely allow 10amps of current. if you were to wire them in series you would still only get 10 amps. in order to get more amps you would need to wire multiple BMS modules in parallel. and to get enough current capacity to power a 2000 watt inverter you would need many


It seems you are not aware that Tesla uses a battery bank comprised of 18650 batteries in the electric car. actually i am quite aware that tesla used 18650 lithium ion cells in their earlier models, but the current model 3 uses a new form factor. the 2170 also refered to as the 21700.

Tesla uses Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries in its cars. The Tesla Model S and Mode X use the18650 battery.Oct 13, 2018 nice copy and paste quote with out properly attributing it

It seems Tesla does not agree with you seeing as tesla when they were using 18650 cells, put them together to form around a 22 volt module and now runs closer to 50 volts in their model 3 modules i dont think they are saying they would make a simple and cheap replacement for a 12v rv battery they also charge their cells to about 4.17v for a full charge

this is why i suggest people do more than just watch a few videos. 18650 is just a form factor, it means 18 mm diameter and 65 mm long. teslas new batteries are the 2170/21700 and that to, is just the form factor 21 mm dia and 70 mm length

the typical 18650 and now teslas 2170 are a lithium ion chemistry. these are the lightest for their power (energy density) but are the most susceptible to thermal runaway or a fiery death from physical damage. but you can also get lifepo4 cells in 18650 form factor and you can even get Lithium titanate cells in 18650 form factor

i dont want to insult or piss anyone off, but post inaccurate info does not help anyone.

my point is, everyone needs to do their due diligence and make sure the know what they are doing and not just emulating what someone shared on the internet

saying building a quality lithium battery that is going to be reliable, safe and cost effective is going to be easy and cheap is like saying a boy scout can build a nuclear reactor in his shed with parts he bought off the internet. that one didnt turn out so well

as a few people have said, building a lithium pack can be a huge learning experience and hugely rewarding

and i dont want to discourage anyone from learning and proceeding at their pace.

but cheap and easy, naw, it is not their yet

 

[geogentry]

"Gypsy Freedom"

Yes, I know about the different types of lithium batteries.

My advice is very sound. You're saying that my information is inaccurate? Which information is that?

I find it odd, and interesting, that you say you can build a lithium battery and will when your lead acid fails. And yet you keep saying it can't be done safely. Rather than attempting to present the idea of constructing this battery as a difficult and dangerous, if not impossible, task, shouldn't you be presenting some of this profound knowledge which you possess to help make the task easier and safer? Rather than merely opinions that are negative?

The original poster of this thread asked if it could be done. Yes it can.
Where do they start? By learning.
Are there risks? Sure. There are risks in most endeavors. People die every day in automobile accidents. Yet look at all the people that drive. It is by the application of knowledge that the risks are reduced.
Cheap is a very relative term dictated by a person's economic situation.
Easy is a relative term based on a person's knowledge and the application of that knowledge. When I was a programmer writing a program was easy. When I was a Chef planning a banquet for a thousand people was easy. When I was in the military
repairing a flight simulator for an F4B was easy. When I was an electronic engineering technician designing and building device testers was easy. How is it that all these things were easy? Knowledge and application of that knowledge.

Instead of telling someone how difficult, if not impossible, a task might be. Instead of telling someone the end result might be dangerous. Shouldn't you be sharing your knowledge, if you have any, to make their path easier and safer? Point them in a direction in which they can begin gaining that knowledge?

Bob started this forum to help people have a better life. By sharing his knowledge to make that journey easier and safer. Are we not emulating what Bob has shown us on the internet? Would it not be better to emulate Bob by sharing what knowledge we have to make someone else's life easier and safer?


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[justawfulgamer]

The 18650 idea seems like a really cool one. I wonder how well that would work for off grid purposes

 

[geogentry]

The 18650 idea seems like a really cool one. I wonder how well that would work for off grid purposes

It would work. And work well. I will say that that video that was in a previous post on this thread is excellent. The cost for the battery he shows is just slightly higher in cost then the ones using the 18650. And it is massively easier. I recommend you check out that video and the website that is listed in the description underneath the video. A ton of information.

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[justawfulgamer]

The 18650 idea seems like a really cool one. I wonder how well that would work for off grid purposes

It would work. And work well. I will say that that video that was in a previous post on this thread is excellent. The cost for the battery he shows is just slightly higher in cost then the ones using the 18650. And it is massively easier. I recommend you check out that video and the website that is listed in the description underneath the video. A ton of information.

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what would i search for on ebay? whats the name of that battery? i also wonder how many 18650 batteries it would take to make a 12v 100ah or so battery, like to replace an rv one.

 

[justawfulgamer]

what would i search for on ebay? whats the name of that battery? i also wonder how many 18650 batteries it would take to make a 12v 100ah or so battery, like to replace an rv one.

if my math is correct, it should be about 100 batteries to replace a normal rv battery with around 100ah

 

[geogentry]

Do a search for 18650. Try to find Panasonic or Samsung. FIRST look on line to find new ones. You want to know what they look like. There's a few scammers out there who will put a fake label on crap batteries. Also write down the specs. Scammers will try to make their batteries look more powerful than the real ones.

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[justawfulgamer]

this just sounds like a really fun project tbh

 

[Gypsy Freedom]

yes, it can be fun and a great learning experience.

just be careful, cautious and read up as much as you can and go slow.

if by chance, and it is easy to do when ordering on the interwebs, you get new or used unwrapped cells. be aware that the positive and negative are extremely close together at one end and these cells for most home/rv uses will need to have insulators and wraps added. these unwrapped cells and used cell that may have had some damage to the protective wrap can be extremely easy to short out. as simple as holding them in your hand while wearing a ring could short them out or having a few loose in the bottom of a bag or box they could short against each other. a ring shorted out on one of these can get so hot instantly that it will burn you bad. even if the cell does not combust or explode. having a couple short out in the bottom of a bag or box can easily start a serious fire.

be careful, read up on the safe handling and do more than watch a few slick videos on youtube

 

[Natgreen]

Thanks for the feedback. Just what I was looking for.

 

[justawfulgamer]

If you decide to do this, lmk. I might do it with you and we can compare notes. I live for this kind of stuff.

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