Can you breathe up all the oxygen in your rig?

[maki2]

The following information is from the Enviromental Health and Safety website. As this issue of working in a confined space creates hazards for workers in industry they have prepared informational postings about what is what.

For those who think it is all about the carbon monoxide it is not. But it certainly is one factor that can decrease the amount of available oxygen in a confined space.

"Oxygen Deficiency

Human beings normally breathe air that is 20.9 percent oxygen by volume under normal atmospheric pressure conditions. When the concentration of oxygen decreases even slightly by a little more than 1 percent to 2 percent, people immediately begin to feel the effects. Healthy individuals are unable to work strenuously and their coordination may be affected in oxygen environments of 15 percent to 19 percent. With the depletion of oxygen to a mix of only 10 percent to 12 percent, respiration increases, lips turn blue and judgment is impaired. Fainting and unconsciousness begin to occur at 8 percent to 10 percent oxygen. Death occurs in 8 minutes at 6 percent to 8 percent oxygen; recovery is possible after 4 to 5 minutes if oxygen is restored. These values are approximate and may vary greatly depending on an individual’s health, physical activity and the specific working environment that they encounter.

There are a variety of causes that lead to oxygen deficiency. Leaking materials from storage tanks, natural gas lines, process valves and more release gas that displaces oxygen in poorly ventilated areas or confined spaces. Decomposing organic matter, such as animal, human or plant waste, produces methane, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulfide that displace or consume oxygen. Even corrosion, such as rust, or fermentation or other forms of oxidation will consume oxygen and pose a hazard."

 

[rokguy]

Testing...
With the buddy heater on high in the van, my pulse oximeter reads 98 percent oxygen concentration in my blood. I still have a pulse. This is the same reading as when i started the test. Heater has raised the temperature in here by 6 degrees in sbout 15 minutes, currently 63 degrees in here. So an hour later and i have an oxygen saturation in my blood of 97 percent on the pulse oximeter. It is 68 degrees in here after an hour running the heater on high, outside temp is about 45 degrees. End of test. 
I think you could improve airflow by having another vent at the other end of the van in an area free of exhaust gasses. Agree that co detector should be used-crofter

Somewhere on youtube I remember seeing someone do a test like this in a van.

 

[highdesertranger]

I guess this is somewhat relevant. I already have a quality explosive gas meter. I have wanted an Oxygen meter for years but they use to be outrageously expensive. so out of curiosity I just checked and they have come way down in price. I see one is in the future. even the multi-gas meters have come way down in price. highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

My pulse oximeter cost less than 20 dollars online and does not work with fingernail polish (not a problem for HDR).  There is a difference in testing oxygen and carbon monoxide; carbon monoxide test is a blood draw I believe and I did not have that done.     ~crofter

 

[highdesertranger]

yeah no fingernail polish here. LOL. the O2 meter I am talking about is for atmospheric O2 like in open air or confined spaces like inside a van, or maybe a mine not blood saturation. highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

One of those special mining thingys. We had one for methane at the mine.    ~crofter

 

[highdesertranger]

yes I have the explosive gas one already. it will read any type of hydrocarbon based gas and sound an alarm when you approach the concentration levels that have the potential for an explosion. highdesertranger

 

[LivingOurPeace]

"In regards freezing to death in a car when trapped in a snowstorm, I recall reading that lighting a candle can keep the inside of the car from getting too cold, but crack a window. I wonder if this would work in the back of a van, in lieu of using a real heater. ???"

I know this thread is a couple of days old, but I wanted to make a quick comment on this statement in particular posted (I think) by Qxxx.

A few years back I was involuntarily homeless for just over a year. I lived in my minivan before I knew how to do it comfortably and just made things work from day to day as best I could.

I survived a nasty Ohio winter mostly just starting the engine when my toes told me it was time (often woke me in the middle of the night) and using a ridiculous and uncomfortable number of blankets. The candle thing is absolutely true. In an area as small as a car or minivan, simply lighting one or two tea candles can at minimum keep one from freezing, though not enough to make it "comfortable" as we know it - even though that's subjective. I also used a single burner (the kind that screws directly onto a small green propane tank, making the tank the stand) to warm my van a few times. I only had to let it run 5-10 minutes - keeping in mind that the back of my van was PACKED with everything I owned so there was very little space needing to be warmed. I did what I could to save gas, though, and these worked.

Obviously though, none of these things can be done when you're going to sleep.

I met MANY people that year who were living in tents in the woods around the railroad tracks and they used these same methods. No electricity out there! I only knew one man who died, but poor Dwayne was a heavy drinker. He passed out without ensuring his warmth for the night. He didn't even cover himself with a blanket, poor man.

 

[highdesertranger]

there is not enough BTU's in a candle to make a difference in the temperature. I think this is the placebo effect. highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

North Dakota Uni says a single candle produces about 75 BTU's, enough to melt water but not enough to provide heat. They recommend eating and using winter clothing and winter sleeping bags to stay warm.    ~crofter

 

[highdesertranger]

" They recommend eating and using winter clothing "

does that down jacket taste good?
naw needs salt

highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

Yer killin me!  Their (North Dakota Uni) site talked mostly about surviving by using the items you prepared in advance of the cold weather. When I lived in Wyoming the winter travel kit went into the truck in September and stayed there till June: included high calorie food and some of the backpacker food, water jug kept in the cab to keep it from freezing, warm coat, hat, gloves, and insulated overalls, Sorels, winter rated sleeping bag. I was caught out in the ditch only one time without my winter travel kit, and had to walk 3 miles back to the house in a blizzard wearing my town clothes and wrapped in a wide load sign. Woulda froze if it wasn't for that wide load sign.   ~crofter

 

[LivingOurPeace]

"does that down jacket taste good?
naw needs salt"

Reminds me of that old Bugs Bunny "down in the mouth" joke. LOLOL

 

[michaelwnoakes]

The following information is from the Enviromental Health and Safety website.  As this issue of working in a confined space creates hazards for workers in industry they have prepared informational postings about what is what.

For those who think it is all about the carbon monoxide it is not. But it certainly is one factor that can decrease the amount of available oxygen in a confined space.

"Oxygen Deficiency

Human beings normally breathe air that is 20.9 percent oxygen by volume under normal atmospheric pressure conditions. When the concentration of oxygen decreases even slightly by a little more than 1 percent to 2 percent, people immediately begin to feel the effects. Healthy individuals are unable to work strenuously and their coordination may be affected in oxygen environments of 15 percent to 19 percent. With the depletion of oxygen to a mix of only 10 percent to 12 percent, respiration increases, lips turn blue and judgment is impaired. Fainting and unconsciousness begin to occur at 8 percent to 10 percent oxygen. Death occurs in 8 minutes at 6 percent to 8 percent oxygen; recovery is possible after 4 to 5 minutes if oxygen is restored. These values are approximate and may vary greatly depending on an individual’s health, physical activity and the specific working environment that they encounter.

There are a variety of causes that lead to oxygen deficiency. Leaking materials from storage tanks, natural gas lines, process valves and more release gas that displaces oxygen in poorly ventilated areas or confined spaces. Decomposing organic matter, such as animal, human or plant waste, produces methane, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulfide that displace or consume oxygen. Even corrosion, such as rust, or fermentation or other forms of oxidation will consume oxygen and pose a hazard."

An automobile is not a confined space by the standards definition.

 

[bullfrog]

The main point of this thread is to rehash a common situation that occurs every winter when the most common heat source is unvented propane used in a small space with little or minimum ventilation without jeopardizing one's health or life. All manufactures provide guidelines but due to the many different environments we use them in there is concern. General consensus seems to be always have enough covers or sleeping bags to survive without any external heat source so you don't have to use an unattended heat source while sleeping to stay warm. Insure there is plenty of ventilation while using them. Always use secondary detectors while they are operating to insure you will know if something malfunctions. What it comes down to is there is a certain amount of risk involved when using this type of heater and it is easy to use them improperly or have a malfunction and do harm to yourself and those with you.

 

[crofter]

What has not been mentioned, is that if possible you should move to a warmer area that stays above freezing at night. It is possible to frostbite your toes when you think you are warm enough, and that can cripple you if the frostbite is bad enough.  I keep a thermometer inside the van to check on the minimum temperature of the wall. Usually when sleeping, your feet are by the outside wall.   ~crofter

 

[nature lover]

last post on this thread was months ago but I will add my 2 cents - if its worth that.  I never slept with any open flame in the van or tent but I used a homemade heat battery.  I used e denatured alcohol gel (like sterno but a less expensive brand)    With that fuel burning only while I was still awake.  I filled my largest cast iron dutch oven with marble slabs and chips and covered it with the cast iron lid.  By heating this "battery" for 3 or more hours and putting out the flame before falling asleep; the van stayed warm for some time without an open flame.  I never did a formal measured test but remember waking to go to the potty and the "battery" was very warm (not hot) after 4 + hours.

Nature lover - part time in GMC safari and tent for 20 years starting full time in a shuttle bus May 1.

 

[maki2]

An automobile is not a confined space by the standards definition.

You must have missed the sentence in the description where it said poorly ventilated OR confined. If the windows are rolled up then it is both a relatively small and poorly ventilated area. Insufficient oxygen is not the same thing as zero oxygen. So you don't actually run out of all oxygen, you just don't have enough for a human.

 

[Firebuild]

As for heaters, it isn't the consumption of oxygen, but the emission of carbon monoxide that causes death. Carbon monoxide is an odorless, tasteless gas that displaces your blood oxygen levels as you breathe in. To avoid this issue, have a carbon monoxide detector in your vehicle, which goes off before the carbon monoxide level reaches dangerous amounts. When the alarm goes off, turn of the heater and open the window to get a cross draft that dissipates the carbon monoxide level.  Cracking your windows and placing the heater between them and you will provide the necessary ventilation for the heater and provide the heat for you. Don't sleep with the heater on, so you can hear the alarm if it goes off, as well as preventing a fire hazard due to your blanket getting up against the heater, etc.

Thank you! I was wondering if we were going to ignore carbon monoxide! While I agree these heaters are not as dangerous as we've been led to believe when operated properly, I personally would never rely on a vehicle's lack of inherent air-tightness. Cracking a window is imperative, I think.

 

[B and C]

Cracking a window with a CO alarm and a propane alarm.