Can you breathe up all the oxygen in your rig?

[MrNoodly]

There have been many threads warning about heaters and stoves using up oxygen, but what about just breathing? How much oxygen do we consume, and how close do we come to using it all up in our rigs? Well, I looked it up.

The average adult, when resting, inhales and exhales about 7 or 8 liters of air per minute.
That totals about 11,000 liters of air per day.​

Okay, let's consider just sleeping time, when our rig is most likely to be closed up. That's about 3,666 liters. We don't typically think of vehicle volume in terms of liters, but 3,666 liters is about 129 cubic feet. If you figure the interior of a standard length, low roof van is about 6' x 4.5' x 12', that's 324 cubic feet. But at least half of that volume is taken up with your stuff and yourself, leaving about 162 cubic feet for air.

But what if you're in something less roomy than a van? Hmmmmmmm...

I think the collected experience of all the vehicle dwellers shows us this isn't really a problem. We aren't breathing ourselves to the point of suffocation. But it couldn't hurt to leave a window cracked, or to open the door a second or two during one of those times you wake at the night.

 

[highdesertranger]

all this assumes the vehicle is airtight. which I doubt any are. highdesertranger

 

[MrNoodly]

Correct.

 

[Almost There]

I don't think in 50 years of driving and 43 years of owning vans that I've ever even thought about it.

The terms air tight and vehicles just don't belong in the same sentence nor the same post.

And if you own a manufactured RV you have even less to be concerned about - I've seen the inside of them after a dust storm....

 

[MrNoodly]

The terms air tight and vehicles just don't belong in the same sentence nor the same post.

If we agree vehicles aren't airtight, can we then agree there's little likelihood of a heater or stove using up too much oxygen? 

 

[bullfrog]

The campers built using Poor Man's Fiberglass use the "sock principle" which requires a complete covering sometimes inside and out of the completed camper for structural strength makes it so the only way air gets in or out is through openings. Doors can be sealed up pretty tight so much so you just about have to put a vent in them to shut them, ask me how I know! A well built camper can be built water and almost airtight so having vents is a concern not only for oxygen but condensation. It is possible to build a rig that can kill you if not ventilated. Even in a leaky van can get to hot in summer or not get enough ventilation when heating in winter to deal with the condensation that develops. Leaving pets and children in closed vehicles is a real concern as death can occur with too little ventilation and with a few of the super insulated builds and people using unvented heaters I really think it is important to point out to newcomers the importance of ventilation. I my old vehicles I can usually watch the ground go by through the floorboards so usually as stated above ventilation is seldom a problem. sleeping in a closed in space especially with an unvented heater ventilation needs to be checked and vents must be and stay open or be avoided altogether.

 

[Matlock]

And lets not forget that just under 20% of the air we breathe is oxygen. So only 1/5th of that trapped air in this mythical Van envelope is actually useable for us regular (non-sleep apnea) folks. (I think over 50 folks breathe less often or at least shallower. Just my experience from listening to all the wheezers I hang with)

Ya, I like fresh air and have a window open a bit year round.

 

[bullfrog]

With all the smaller vented heaters available and several with prices now less than $200 I would want one just to not to have to deal with the condensation unvented heaters create. Really a good sleeping bag solves the problem which everyone should have anyway. Sorry I won't agree as not being airtight is not the same as being enough to breath. I have had to ventilate in order to keep my Buddy heater from shutting off in my camper and that was enough to concern me. People have died from sleeping in enclosed spaces especially if stuck in deep snow or mud and if a cars exhaust leaks can be a hazard I would certainly think with the few brain cells I have left because I have done stupid things an unvented heater could do the same.

 

[highdesertranger]

I have to agree with bullfrog. an unvented heater consumes oxygen at a much higher rate than breathing. I don't have the exact numbers but by guessing I would say at least 20 times more and it wouldn't surprise if it was much higher like 100 times or more. highdesertranger

 

[Qxxx]

With all the smaller vented heaters available and several with prices now less than $200 I would want one just to not to have to deal with the condensation unvented heaters create.  Really a good sleeping bag solves the problem which everyone should have anyway.  Sorry I won't agree as not being airtight is not the same as being enough to breath.  I have had to ventilate in order to keep my Buddy heater from shutting off in my camper and that was enough to concern me.  
...........

I agree with frog that there isn't enough air in the van for both human and unventilated heater in the night. Not by a long shot. Even with some air leakage around the seals.

On various other threads, people have expressed the idea of sleeping without heat during the night and turning it, say a buddy heater, on first thing in the morning. And then staying in the sleeping bag until it warms up a bit. I've done this in my van using my Coleman propane stove, and it warms up very quickly.

In regards freezing to death in a car when trapped in a snowstorm,  I recall reading that lighting a candle can keep the inside of the car from getting too cold, but crack a window. I wonder if this would work in the back of a van, in lieu of using a real heater. ???

"[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]... not to have to deal with the condensation unvented heaters create.  Really a good sleeping bag solves the problem...". 

I disagree with this last. I did not insulate the walls in my van and I sleep with just a sleeping bag, no heater whatsoever at night. Did this for 2 1/2 months last winter in AZ and SoCal. Many is the morning I woke up and there was "significant" condensation on the underside of the metal roof of the van just over my head. I mean "significant". Apparently my breathing in the night produces enough moisture in the air to do this.[/font]

 

[bullfrog]

Sorry I mean sleeping in a sleeping bag with plenty of ventilation as in all the windows down or even outside.

 

[maki2]

There is a  foggy zone of oxygen insufficiency that can happen where you don't die but you really did need more oxygen that you were getting. That is very much not good for your brain health. So even if your dwelling space is not air tight you really do need some extra fresh air in a small volume of space. 

One year I was sleeping in a truck cap with a friend and I woke up gasping for air. We did not have a heater running, it was simply a matter of not having a large enough volume of air.

If you are sleeping or even just being awake in a van on a rainy day you can get some fresh air without the rain coming in if you have some rain caps over your front windows. You might also need some window screen socks if you are in a buggy area.

My small travel trailer is fiberglass that means the sides slope and rain can easily come into the windows on all sides but the back one that has a sliding window in the door. I do have a heater, it exhaust the fumes to the exterior but it does not have a tube for fresh air intake. So I went to the marine supply store and found a louvered vent to install at the top of the sliding window on the entry door. It is acting as my "rain cap". I can control the amount of air that comes in by raising and lowering the window. Of course my trailer is not completely air tight but it also has a very small volume of space so a fresh air intake was something I felt was essential. Now I can leave my heater on as much as I want to even if I am asleep or awake doing other tasks. Be kind to yourself, be sure you get a sufficiency of fresh air. Even for houses the current building code has required that there be an air exchange system to create a "healthy home".

This photo shows the louvered vent I added at the top of the sliding window in my travel trailer door. Now way was I going to be spending time in it without a way to have fresh air if it was cold and the heater was in use or when it was raining and it was not cold outside.

 

[Rabbit]

Another thing to factor in is that human lungs aren't even close to 100% efficient. They only remove a small percentage of the available oxygen from each lungful of air. Many years back I read how much the percentage is, but it's been so long that all I can recall now is that the figure is fairly small. So you can breathe the same lungful again and again multiple times, though with each repeat the lungs have to work harder at extracting the remaining oxygen and therefore less is taken in. Eventually this will indeed kill you, but it takes longer than you'd think.

In other words, you can't calculate this merely by lungfuls of volume. There's a lot more to it.

 

[Jadvisioness]

For someone who has anxiety/panic disorder, I *SO DID NOT* need this "problem" to be brought up!! ROFL

I'll remember to keep at least one of my vehicle windows cracked open, no matter the weather.
JAD

 

[SheketEchad]

This was a really good thread. Thanks to Mr Noodly for opening it up, and for all who contributed.

 

[Dingfelder]

I remember reading about some young healthy European guy who died overnight in a room that had nothing extraordinary about it.  I've been wary ever since.  Some "tiny homes" builders have started to put active circulation fans and vents from one end of the home to another.  It can be surprisingly, maybe even prohibitively,  expensive. 

But what are you going to do with it's a life or death matter?

 

[wayne49]

Cars have an opening on the body to equalize air pressure when closing doors. Toyota Camry's have a license plate sized opening in the left rear quarter panel on the inner side. Passenger vehicles are not airtight by design.

A problem is moisture build up from breathing.

 

[crofter]

I have air coming in around the back doors in the van, and also a maxxfan. With the vent cracked about a half inch passive circulation keeps the air fresh. I have not ran the buddy heater in the van during the two years i have owned it. No need.
They used to make a candle lantern for use in tents that would also work in similar small space. It produces light plus a small amount of heat. -crofter

 

[michaelwnoakes]

When children and pets are left in a vehicle and die, it isn't because of the lack of oxygen, but due to the extreme heat buildup inside of the vehicle. The internal temperature reaches between 125 and 140 degrees, the same temperature range that we cook low and slow meat such as pulled pork or beef jerky. What actually causes death is dehydration and an actual partial cooking of the brain.

As for heaters, it isn't the consumption of oxygen, but the emission of carbon monoxide that causes death. Carbon monoxide is an odorless, tasteless gas that displaces your blood oxygen levels as you breathe in. To avoid this issue, have a carbon monoxide detector in your vehicle, which goes off before the carbon monoxide level reaches dangerous amounts. When the alarm goes off, turn of the heater and open the window to get a cross draft that dissipates the carbon monoxide level. Cracking your windows and placing the heater between them and you will provide the necessary ventilation for the heater and provide the heat for you. Don't sleep with the heater on, so you can hear the alarm if it goes off, as well as preventing a fire hazard due to your blanket getting up against the heater, etc.

 

[crofter]

Testing...
With the buddy heater on high in the van, my pulse oximeter reads 98 percent oxygen concentration in my blood. I still have a pulse. This is the same reading as when i started the test. Heater has raised the temperature in here by 6 degrees in sbout 15 minutes, currently 63 degrees in here. So an hour later and i have an oxygen saturation in my blood of 97 percent on the pulse oximeter. It is 68 degrees in here after an hour running the heater on high, outside temp is about 45 degrees. End of test. 
I think you could improve airflow by having another vent at the other end of the van in an area free of exhaust gasses. Agree that co detector should be used-crofter