Front wheel drive puts almost all the weight over the front wheels. Great in snow but anything else besides pavement not so good, 2 were stuck on the beach sand today. There are some differentials that work with front wheel drive to improve power transfer but they are mainly used in racing applications (Rally/Autocrosss) and are really expensive. Most front wheel drive transaxles require more labor to replace and CV boots continually get cut by grass and around here fishing line wrapping around them! This results in dirt getting in the joint making a real mess usually requiring a replacement axle unless you really like getting dirty!
Can a Van Last for 40 Years?
- Thread starter One Awesome Inch
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Ground clearance on FWD is usually not too good.
On the other hand, for pavement use they are fine. Usually a nice tight turning radius, nimble handling, and lower load floors in the case of a van.
On the other hand, for pavement use they are fine. Usually a nice tight turning radius, nimble handling, and lower load floors in the case of a van.
Why don't you buy a gently used $20,000 van (there are MANY of these for sale) and save the rest of your money to buy another one in 20 years? I bought a 2004 van with 43K miles for $12 K, and runs like a dream. Don't spend all your money on your first get-away car. Try it first, to see if the lifestyle is for you. Keep money for repairs and expenses on the road, even the best of the vans will need them eventually.
Other than that, I wish you the best of luck, and happy travels!
Other than that, I wish you the best of luck, and happy travels!
flying kurbmaster
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As far as parts go for old vehicles, I bet in a few more years they will just print out any part you need likely go to your local three D printer in the wall, plug your phone in, or perhaps just talk to it, press print and 7 minutes later your parts drops out like a vending machine if you swipped your under skin micro chip properly.
frater secessus
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highdesertranger said:
HDR, with all due respect I think your posts indicate bias against anything that's not old, rear wheel drive, American, solid axle, and preferably V8. Everyone has bias, but your position of prominence on the forum can lead others to take personal opinion for gospel. Particularly when it is presented forcefully as fact.
Prime example of personal opinion stated as fact, and it's trivially disprovable -- the world has an abundance of 40+ year old front wheel drive vehicles.
frater secessus
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bullfrog said:
Are you suggesting that those same vehicles in RWD would have fared better?
As far as improving power transfer, traction control (via the ABS system) is becoming commonplace. I ran my Promaster into deep sand outside Quartzsite (durrrrr) and the traction control pulled me out without airing down (that was my Plan B). Last month on a narrow road I pulled partially onto a muddy shoulder and traction control keep the driver's side tire turning on the pavement.
Would I prefer a torsen-style LSD? Sure. Keeping a foot in it while ABS-based traction control engages can overheat rotors and wear brake pads.
Spaceman Spiff
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frater secessus said:
With the exception of the Cord L-29 (1929) and the Oldsmobile Toronado (1966) American manufacturers didn't begin to offer front wheel drive cars until 1978 (40 years ago) and then only in the cheaply made econoboxes. How many Plymouth Horizons or Dodge Omnis have you seen driving around lately? European manufacturers were making them 40+ years ago but are now only seen in collections.
My take is that current vehicles will not be drivable in 2058 with the exception of cars that collectors will go to great lengths to maintain. Two reasons for this: plastics and computers.
Plastics get brittle with age.
Computers fail with age.
There needs to be a big enough market for a reproduction manufacturer to make replacement parts. I just don't see it with the common delivery/tradesman type vehicles in 40 years, especially the computer stuff.
Add to that the double whammy of:
The current generations don't have as many 'motor heads' as my generation (baby boomers).
Current vehicles are much more difficult to repair. My '51 Dodge has a lot more repairable components than my 2012 Ram.
highdesertranger
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am I biased against front wheel drive. yes. for a cheap commuter car that you will drive for a few years and get rid of, they are fine. but for a long term vehicle that you will live in and is going to last 40 years I just don't see it. of course what I consider normal driving includes many, many miles per year of banging around dirt roads.
I have nothing against newer vehicles but I feel everyone should know that after a certain amount of time keeping them running becomes a losing proposition. there are just to many parts to fail that leaves you high and dry. if a part is not there it will never fail. if a part is there it will fail sooner or later, that is guaranteed. the more parts you have that effect drivability the less dependable the vehicle is over the long haul to 40 years. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
the question was "Can a Van Last 40 Years?". I answered that question as honestly as I could, if you don't like my answer that's fine. but it doesn't change my mind. I have 3 vehicles a 1947 jeep cj2a, a 1978 chevy 1 ton 4x4, and a 2001 ford f250 4x4. if I had to choose one for dependability it would be the 78 chevy. highdesertranger
I have nothing against newer vehicles but I feel everyone should know that after a certain amount of time keeping them running becomes a losing proposition. there are just to many parts to fail that leaves you high and dry. if a part is not there it will never fail. if a part is there it will fail sooner or later, that is guaranteed. the more parts you have that effect drivability the less dependable the vehicle is over the long haul to 40 years. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
the question was "Can a Van Last 40 Years?". I answered that question as honestly as I could, if you don't like my answer that's fine. but it doesn't change my mind. I have 3 vehicles a 1947 jeep cj2a, a 1978 chevy 1 ton 4x4, and a 2001 ford f250 4x4. if I had to choose one for dependability it would be the 78 chevy. highdesertranger
As important to long life is whether the vehicle is body-on-frame or uni-body.
Most (but not all) FWD vehicles are uni-body and extended use in the 'rust belt' or on rough roads with heavy loads can really take years off of the lifespan.
I'm not saying body-on-frame is immune to rust or frame damage, but they tend to last a bit longer, and are repairable if rusted or in a wreck.
If the structural sections of a uni-body get damaged along with the body, that thing is headed for the scrap yard.
Most (but not all) FWD vehicles are uni-body and extended use in the 'rust belt' or on rough roads with heavy loads can really take years off of the lifespan.
I'm not saying body-on-frame is immune to rust or frame damage, but they tend to last a bit longer, and are repairable if rusted or in a wreck.
If the structural sections of a uni-body get damaged along with the body, that thing is headed for the scrap yard.
frater secessus said:
Most traction control systems limit engine RPM and/or torque during an event, but yes the brakes are operating independently as a sub-function of the ABS.
steamjam1
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Here is my 2- cents:
If you bought a rust free 1980's or early 90's Ford Econoline with a Big-6, or any Dodge van with a slant-6, then out of the starting gate replaced, or have a shop replace the entire drive line and suspension, that van would easily go to 2058... and easily go to 400,000 miles for a fraction of the price of a Sprinter, or Pro Master....
You haveto be good with your hands, and have a pretty good tool set. Working on things like carburetors, and automotive diagnostics using nothing but hand tools and your brain is becoming a black art.
I haveto agree with HDR here. When your out boon docking in the desert, or any BLM land where ever... If your van doesn't start and your miles from any town. No cell service.. Yer screwed. You had better have a van that is: Technologically primitive enough for you to repair, or RIG something good enough to get you out to the nearest town. There is however a trade off to this. Old American vans get bad gas mileage, and you will be doing ALOT of "fixing it forward" where your replacing parts BEFORE they wear out.
On the flip side of that, after a while... You will be able to instantly diagnose every squeak, clunk, whine, whistle, click you hear and every rumble, shake, and shudder you feel while you drive. That to me is alot more important then having the latest high end van with all the electronics and bells/whistles.
If you bought a rust free 1980's or early 90's Ford Econoline with a Big-6, or any Dodge van with a slant-6, then out of the starting gate replaced, or have a shop replace the entire drive line and suspension, that van would easily go to 2058... and easily go to 400,000 miles for a fraction of the price of a Sprinter, or Pro Master....
You haveto be good with your hands, and have a pretty good tool set. Working on things like carburetors, and automotive diagnostics using nothing but hand tools and your brain is becoming a black art.
I haveto agree with HDR here. When your out boon docking in the desert, or any BLM land where ever... If your van doesn't start and your miles from any town. No cell service.. Yer screwed. You had better have a van that is: Technologically primitive enough for you to repair, or RIG something good enough to get you out to the nearest town. There is however a trade off to this. Old American vans get bad gas mileage, and you will be doing ALOT of "fixing it forward" where your replacing parts BEFORE they wear out.
On the flip side of that, after a while... You will be able to instantly diagnose every squeak, clunk, whine, whistle, click you hear and every rumble, shake, and shudder you feel while you drive. That to me is alot more important then having the latest high end van with all the electronics and bells/whistles.
One Awesome Inch
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In my case I am 100% urban for the next 20 years for sure. So no bumpy dirt roads for me. I live in Vancouver BC so our annual snowfall and requirement of salted roads is minimal. There are lots of 20 year old vans driving around here... and definitely older as well.
With high cost of rent here the van will have paid for itself in 3 years. However, this would be the largest purchase I've made in my life so it would be prudent to consider all factors and act accordingly.
With high cost of rent here the van will have paid for itself in 3 years. However, this would be the largest purchase I've made in my life so it would be prudent to consider all factors and act accordingly.
dragonfiregrill
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i'm gonna chime in on the front wheel drive thing, i have a 93 ford e150 with a 5.8l v8 engine. gets 16mpg highway and crud city--rear
i have a 94 ford ranger 4.0l v6 gets 16mpg hwy and 13 city---rear
i had a 89 ford areostar van 3.0l v6 got 24 hwy 22 city---rear
i had a 89 kia sephia 2.?l engine got 26/28 dont remember really--front
i had an 89 chevy s10 2.4l 4cyl- got 24-30 mpg--rear
and several others both rear and front wheel drive, i have absolutely no desire to ever own another front wheel drive vehicle, preventive maintenance is a nightmare, even worse than working on a van, unless it is a 4cyl front wheel drive the rear plugs and wires are completely inaccessible unless you remove a top engine mount and pull the engine forward. the starter is usually next to the firewall and is near impossible to reach from top or bottom. the ground clearance is 6 to 8 inches, barely enough to get down on the ground and look under let alone work on anything. the belt and all the accesories driven by said belt have about a 2 inch clearance in front of them which either requires the removal of the engine to work on or the removal of the wheel and the inner cowl, which may or may not get you access. and this is just if you do the work.
if you have someone else do the work expect the cost to be 1.5 to 3x the cost in labor alone pluss shop fees and things.
i hate front wheel drive vehicles because i cannot work on them and i very much dislike newer computer controlled vehicles because there are so many more aspects that require a certified tech to work on them, and specialized equipment/ scanners/ tools.
now that being said, these are my opinions based upon personal experience and if you like front wheel drive, which is excellent in the snow, then by all means get one, while i hate them if i find one that is cheap enough and gets good enough mileage to be used for may daily driver while i work on my van i will probably get it as a disposable vehicle to be sold once i start on the road exploring.
so all i can say is good luck and keep the greasy side down and the shiny side up
jim
i have a 94 ford ranger 4.0l v6 gets 16mpg hwy and 13 city---rear
i had a 89 ford areostar van 3.0l v6 got 24 hwy 22 city---rear
i had a 89 kia sephia 2.?l engine got 26/28 dont remember really--front
i had an 89 chevy s10 2.4l 4cyl- got 24-30 mpg--rear
and several others both rear and front wheel drive, i have absolutely no desire to ever own another front wheel drive vehicle, preventive maintenance is a nightmare, even worse than working on a van, unless it is a 4cyl front wheel drive the rear plugs and wires are completely inaccessible unless you remove a top engine mount and pull the engine forward. the starter is usually next to the firewall and is near impossible to reach from top or bottom. the ground clearance is 6 to 8 inches, barely enough to get down on the ground and look under let alone work on anything. the belt and all the accesories driven by said belt have about a 2 inch clearance in front of them which either requires the removal of the engine to work on or the removal of the wheel and the inner cowl, which may or may not get you access. and this is just if you do the work.
if you have someone else do the work expect the cost to be 1.5 to 3x the cost in labor alone pluss shop fees and things.
i hate front wheel drive vehicles because i cannot work on them and i very much dislike newer computer controlled vehicles because there are so many more aspects that require a certified tech to work on them, and specialized equipment/ scanners/ tools.
now that being said, these are my opinions based upon personal experience and if you like front wheel drive, which is excellent in the snow, then by all means get one, while i hate them if i find one that is cheap enough and gets good enough mileage to be used for may daily driver while i work on my van i will probably get it as a disposable vehicle to be sold once i start on the road exploring.
so all i can say is good luck and keep the greasy side down and the shiny side up
jim
highdesertranger
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let me make something clear if anybody wants a front wheel drive, that's their decision. I don't go on the thread and talk smack because they chose a front wheel drive.
however when someone asks for an opinion, I give it and when they ask for a reason for my opinion, I give it.
highdesertranger
however when someone asks for an opinion, I give it and when they ask for a reason for my opinion, I give it.
highdesertranger
ChezCheese:-)
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Most vehicles, like marriages, don't last forever.
accrete
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a ramble from one who owns a Chevy Express Van and a Promaster...Our 2010 Chevy has a whopping ~45K miles on it and about 5% or so of that is off pavement as a rough guess. Still looks and behaves new. I fully expect it to be around as long as we want it. It has been my wife's DD since we purchased new in fall of 2010.
Our 2017 Promaster 159wb HR RB will be one year old this September and as i type has less than 1,500 miles on is and has been my DD. We don't put many miles on our rigs since we live ~4 miles from our workplace.
All that said, i know nothing about vehicles, i pay the shop(s) to maintain and check them. They are in top shape. Don't mind doing so as i'm a geek and artist, not a mechanic, and have no desire to learn... YMMV. I applaud those who have those skills and am happy to help put a meal or two on their table.
As to interior space? The PM ROCKS!
As to road manners during our test drive(s) of Transit RWD, Transit 4x4 Quigley, Sprinter RWD and Promaster FWD... All four were taken out on equally sunny dry days on the same test drive area, only the PM was able to drive the entire course/roads without any slippage. All the RWD vans had ~2K lbs of concrete blocks in the payload area over the rear axle, when i asked the dealer this was for assisting in handling and as an example to what it would be like under use. If anything we went in _feeling_ we were going to end up with a Transit as we had ruled out (but wanted the test drive anyway) the Sprinter due to the lack of dealer support within a hundred or so miles in most places we frequent. What we didn't expect was that, for US, the PM was easier to drive, handled better, and was rommier and more comfortable than all the others.
Again, YMMV
In our driveway sits a Chevy AWD and a Ram FWD and for us, it has been the right choice.
Attachments
Actually there were three not two front wheel drive vehicles stuck in the sand when I posted, the last one hadn't come yet for help getting out. I have driven, rally raced and worked on front wheel drive and all wheel drive vehicles many years starting in my teens up through my 50"s and am now in my late 60's. Generally speaking they are designed with lower ground clearance and expecting any electronic traction control to last and work longer than a locker is optimistic. Most older rear wheel drive vehicles have a frame which can take a lot of abuse. Even factory rally cars "doubled" the unibody pannels where suspension componets mounted to try to keep the car together for a few rally races. Not the most confidence building fact.
Off road is a rare special case, but certainly the ultimate test for longevity
The key "answer" to me is not absolute longevity, but overall low cost per year and per mile.
The key question is, are you going do do a lot of your own wrenching or not?
Another one is how well off are you, and will you stay comfortable for the coming decades?
If you're poor, off-roading or planning for a Mad Max dystopia or EMP, then wrenching yourself is not optional, and HDR's vehicle style is the only answer.
$1000 a year or 40¢ a mile overall cost of ownership is do-able that way, but probably not counting your own labor time.
If you **don't** do wrenching and are well off, then smar- buying a big Euro platform at low miles, keeping it in good shape and selling before the repair bills get too high will be most comfortable, trouble-free and economical per-year and per-mile.
$2000 per year or 60¢ a mile is a reasonable goal there.
Buying new and/or selling a bit too late, easy to double that, especially with diesel.
The key "answer" to me is not absolute longevity, but overall low cost per year and per mile.
The key question is, are you going do do a lot of your own wrenching or not?
Another one is how well off are you, and will you stay comfortable for the coming decades?
If you're poor, off-roading or planning for a Mad Max dystopia or EMP, then wrenching yourself is not optional, and HDR's vehicle style is the only answer.
$1000 a year or 40¢ a mile overall cost of ownership is do-able that way, but probably not counting your own labor time.
If you **don't** do wrenching and are well off, then smar- buying a big Euro platform at low miles, keeping it in good shape and selling before the repair bills get too high will be most comfortable, trouble-free and economical per-year and per-mile.
$2000 per year or 60¢ a mile is a reasonable goal there.
Buying new and/or selling a bit too late, easy to double that, especially with diesel.
You will need an income. Plan on that first. Then see what you can afford. $60,000 is not much for 40 years. Only the most meticulous maintained and repaired vehicle will last 20 years. I can see taxes on fuel making any but electric undesirable in 10 years. I would buy a slightly used RV and keep it clean, planning to sell every few years.
there is a product called LPS #3 - it will keep rust from forming -
it is a liquid that can be brushed or sprayed on -
it is Awesome stuff -
I used to service Evaporative Coolers (swamp Coolers)
the water in swamp cooler is as corrosive as sea water -maybe more-
Most house swamp coolers rust out in 10 to 12 years
and need to be replaced -
My parents swamp cooler was painted with LPS#3 since New-
at the beginning of each summer-
after 30 years of use there was ZERO rust in cooler-
Parents replaces old cooler with new more efficient design and gave old
cooler away -old cooler looked like new
LPS#3 can be purchased in gallon jugs - Not cheap but worth it -
also available in spray cans but the spray can stuff I do not recommend
it seems to be thinner and does not work as well -
LPS also make a spray for water proofing electronics-- LPS#1
LPS #1 is Amazing stuff - was originally designed for electronics in missiles
and other electronic gear in service out in the field for the military -
comes in Spray can $20 -- Totally works GREAT --Jay --
it is a liquid that can be brushed or sprayed on -
it is Awesome stuff -
I used to service Evaporative Coolers (swamp Coolers)
the water in swamp cooler is as corrosive as sea water -maybe more-
Most house swamp coolers rust out in 10 to 12 years
and need to be replaced -
My parents swamp cooler was painted with LPS#3 since New-
at the beginning of each summer-
after 30 years of use there was ZERO rust in cooler-
Parents replaces old cooler with new more efficient design and gave old
cooler away -old cooler looked like new
LPS#3 can be purchased in gallon jugs - Not cheap but worth it -
also available in spray cans but the spray can stuff I do not recommend
it seems to be thinner and does not work as well -
LPS also make a spray for water proofing electronics-- LPS#1
LPS #1 is Amazing stuff - was originally designed for electronics in missiles
and other electronic gear in service out in the field for the military -
comes in Spray can $20 -- Totally works GREAT --Jay --
