calculating wire size

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daminc

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So now that I think I figured out what direction I'm going in my build, it's time for the questions....<br><br>I have (2) 12 volt 100ah AGM batteries that I want to locate in the rear of my van. I also bought a solenoid to connect my starting battery to to my 2 house batteries... Seeing that the batteries are in the rear of the van, should I run 2ga wire to them? or would 4 or smaller &nbsp;be sufficient seeing that its only getting a charge from the running motor, and I'm not actually running 200 amps through it.... Or am I thinking about this all wrong?<br><br>Jerry
 
Interesting question.<br><br>The wire that runs back to my house batteries (from the engine battery) is only a 8 or 10 gauge. I hadn't even thought twice about it until you mentioned it. <br><br>For this one, you may want to get professional advice just to be sure, but I haven't had any issues with my setup, and it was done professionally before I purchased the van.
 
technically... the wire should only carry the current from the alt... &nbsp;I believe the stock ford alt puts out about 70 amps<br><br><br>
 
Yep good job finding the calculator.&nbsp; The smaller the wire the lower the voltage your batteries actually see so the slower they charge.&nbsp; If you shop online or at stereo stores for battery cable watch out for (CCA) which is copper clad aluminum.&nbsp; It is cheaper then pure copper but it also doesn't conduct as well so you would have to up size to compensate.&nbsp; Once you go up a gauge it usually negates any savings. They don't advertize that its CCA they often hide that fact.&nbsp; So yea CCA looks the same visually as pure copper but it isn't.<br><br>This looks like 100% copper, I would try to verify though.&nbsp; its about $2.00 a ft<br>http://www.ebay.com/itm/SGX-1-0-AWG...pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&amp;hash=item51ad45af97<br><br>This one would be suspect of being CCA its just to damn cheap.&nbsp; <br>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BULLZ-A...io_Power_Speaker_Wire&amp;hash=item5af36709e3<br><br>You can also find cable on amazon, its depressing how much the companies are allowed to lie, you will see it in the reviews, either its smaller gauge then advertised or its CCA without being labeled as such.<br><br><br>Your estimate of 16ft seems very optimistic to me. You might want to take some string and actually route it the way of the cabling, then measure it.
 
well, the 16 feet was just a number I tossed in there off the top of my head, knowing the van is exactly 10' from the rear doors to the engine cover. I'll have to see what route I'm going tomorrow... I was also researching ford alternators 130 amp seems to be common, now I'm thinking I should size the wire for that and up if I ever replace it with a higher rated alternator..... mine is lower because I have no power options in my van, but I'm planning on installing power windows and locks. I got a aftermarket cruise half installed too... I would really hate to run a wire that is to small in the future
 
Remember the distance to the batteries is only half the circuit.<br><br>If the alternator is to be the only charging source, then spend the cash and run some 2 awg or thicker cable. &nbsp;My batteries are below the floor behind the drivers seat. &nbsp;I use 12' of 2 awg to reach them from the engine battery<br><br>Many run the solenoid so that one big terminal goes to the engine battery, and the other to the house batteries.<br><br>Problem with this is the voltage regulator mostly sees the fully charged engine battery, and not so much the depleted distant house batteries. &nbsp;Also this is relying on the OEM charging circuit, which is completely inadequate for passing current to two extra depleted deep cycle batteries.<br><br>10 awg wire is a joke at these distances. &nbsp;It is like breathing through a cocktail straw after running a 100 yard dash.<br><br>Instead of running the solenoid to the engine battery, run it right to the alternator(+) stud, fused of course. &nbsp;You bypass the undersized OEM wiring,and shorten the distance the current must travel, as well as allowing the voltage regulator to 'sense' the depleted batteries and try to keep them at 14.x, rather than 13.7.<br><br>I have a doubled 4 awg wire directly from alternator to my battery switch. &nbsp;If my batteries are hungry, and I manually trip the circuit breaker, only about 1/3 the amperage makes it to the house batteries with this fatter shorter parallel charging path removed.<br><br>After 20 minutes of driving, with batteries still very thirsty, The alternator might only need to produce 13 amps to hold 13.7, but 35 amps to hold 14.5.<br><br>Vehicular voltage regulators are designed to prevent overcharging as an overcharged battery can be dangerous. &nbsp;How and when it decides to throttle back the alternator is vehicle dependent.<br><br>That said, getting the alternator to produce all it can with thicker wiring feeding depleted batteries will shorten it's life. &nbsp;In general higher amp alternators can better handle the heat they produce when tasked with creating large amounts of current for a long time. &nbsp;but bigger alternators do not necessarily produce more amperage at Idle speed.<br><br>But alternators can only output their rating in a lab, when cold, at high rpm with loads that can draw everything it can produce over wiring that can pass it. &nbsp;that does not happen in an engine compartment, over 10awg wire and most distant batteries die prematurely and perform poorly during that limited lifespan.<br><br>The cable terminations are as important as the thickness of the cabling.<br><br>You can use the frame for ground rather than running an additional cable, but all measures should be taken to ensure good clean tight corrosion free connections when bolting to the frame, and one should also run a cable from ALt(-) to frame as well.<br><br>Regardless of how awesome one might wire up their alternator to their batteries, the fact is it takes hours and hours to shoehorn in the last 20% into the batteries, regardless of the charging source. &nbsp;For this reason, one should have a grid powered battery &nbsp;charger with them for when grid power is available. &nbsp;The batteries will thank you for the top charge and live a longer life.<br><br>It should also be noted that most automatic grid powered chargers stop in the 95% range and will throw the warm and fuzzy green light, as they too are concerned with overcharging. &nbsp;That last 5% is where the charging really slows down, with no way to really safely speed it up. &nbsp;Higher voltages can do it, but this is hard on the battery, and anything electronic hooked to it<br><br>One should take advantage of all possible charging sources, but also not rely totally on the alternator to do it. &nbsp;Batteries like being returned to 100%, and the alternator and vehicle voltage regulators are not great at that task, even with adequate cabling. &nbsp;<br><br>Also you are not so much cabling with the expectation of seeing only the alternator's maximum current, the thicker the wire the more the batteries can suck through it, and depleted AGM batteries can ask for everything a 130 amp alternator at engine redline can create for a little while anyway.<br><br>It takes 1 engine HP to create 25 alternator amps, so don't think of it as free energy either.
 
so if I understand this correctly... if the house batteries are connected directly to the alternator with the starting battery... the alternator should in theory output its power to both the house and starting batteries equally?&nbsp;<br><br>what would I use to regulate the power going to the house batteries so the alternator doesn't over charge them? or does the alt itself know?<br>Its funny that I can build a vehicle from the ground up, but I'm still not sure what some of the things under the hood actually do....lol<br><br>the engine will only be my charging source on the road for right now... I do plan to be able to use shore power too when I get this all figured out..<br>I'm also hoping for solar on the roof in the future, possible next summer<br><br>which I guess brings me to another question about all this?<br>would something like this simplify the house charging from shore power and alternator power?<br><a href="http://www.progressivedyn.com/all_in_one_pd4000.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.progressivedyn.com/all_in_one_pd4000.html</a>
 
You do not have enough data. Find out what "Voltage Drop" is. Find out what your peak charging amps is. You have to do the calculations for the entire length of the wire, coming and going. That is like - 16 feet to the battery and 16 feet back. 32 feet total to calculate the voltage drop wire size for the amp load.&nbsp; IT will be cheaper for you to move the batters behind the front seat.<br><br>The alternator has a regulator built in and does not over charge.<br><br>IF you keep the house battery connected to the starting battery all the time you will drain the starting battery. <br><br>What is your charging amp hours? That is hard and expensive to find out. It varys with state of battery charge.<br><br>Most people just use battery voltage meter to determine state of charge of battery. Much cheaper. <br><br>James AKA Lynx
 
I don't know if Ford has its voltage regulator in the alternator or in the engine computer.<br><br>Either way the batteries take what they can at the voltage allowed by the voltage regulator, and the fatter the cabling the more current they will take at the voltage allowed, recharging faster. &nbsp;<br><br>One side of the solenoid gets connected to either the engine battery, or directly to the alternator(fused).<br><br>Directly to the alternator is shorter and can keep the fully charged engine battery from limiting current to the house batteries. &nbsp;It also bypasses the OEM charging circuit which was not designed for 2 more deep cycle batteries tacked onto the circuit.<br><br>The engine battery after starting does not take much current for very long. &nbsp;Mine starts in the 30 amp range and tapers to below 10 amps within 30 seconds, but my engine starts very quickly and does not need much replenishment. &nbsp;Depleted house batteries are at their hungriest after engine starting and will ask for everything the alternator can make at every rpm until 14.5 is reached. &nbsp;(14.5 is my Dodge, not sure about ford). &nbsp;This can be several minutes of 60+ amps before the battery voltage climbs that high, and only then does the alternator get limited by the voltage regulator. &nbsp;And once my alternator heats up, it is not able to hold 14.5 at idle speeds.<br><br>At some point my voltage regulator decided that 13.7 is plenty,, well before the house batteries are nearing 80%, cutting back alternator charging significantly. &nbsp;Nothing to really be done about it. &nbsp;It was not designed to charge additional batteries perfectly, only top up the slightly depleted single engine starting battery without overcharging, and it is not very good at that either.<br><br>If one does hook the solenoid directly to the &nbsp;engine battery, then one should run another &nbsp;parallel (fused) cable from alternator to the same stud on the solenoid which attaches to the engine battery. &nbsp;No need to touch any original wiring. Adding this wire will significantly increase the charging current to house batteries, and even starting battery if it too is depleted.<br><br>These solenoids should be rated for at least 90 amps continuous, and a couple hundred amps intermittent. &nbsp;I installed an old one of unknown rating in a friend's van and the thing got too hot to the touch in 10 minutes of providing 25 amps to the house batteries, and the contacts inside welded themselves together. &nbsp;If one were not aware of this having occurred, then there would be no battery isolation with the engine off. &nbsp;So the Mac Daddy 200 amp $olenoids can pay for themselves.<br><br>Depending on how they are wired to be triggered, they can allow the house batteries to assist in engine starting, so the contacts within need to be large and durable to pass starter current.<br><br>I'd prefer the house batteries not automatically contribute to cranking the starter. &nbsp;In most vehicles the blower motor circuit is not live during engine cranking, and this circuit is a good trigger for the solenoid.&nbsp;<br><br>That PD product you link to is overkill. &nbsp;A simple converter like the PD9260c will fully charge the battery with grid power when available. &nbsp;Get yourself a regular 10 gang ATC fuse block to distribute power from house batteries to the house circuits. &nbsp;Consider moving the stereo power feed &nbsp;and stock interior lighting to the house battery fuse block too.&nbsp;<br><br>Monitoring State Of Charge of the house batteries can be done with voltage, but is only accurate on a rested battery, one not seeing discharge or charging currents for several hours, but you can notice trends and get a better idea of the SOC of the batteries.<br><br>Other products exist which count the amps into and out of the batteries, and keep track. &nbsp;These cost an additional 200$ or so and require all the vehicle grounds be run through a 500 amp shunt, which sounds complex, but is not that big of a deal. &nbsp;Basically no ground wire can go directly to the battery, but to one side of the shunt, the other of which then goes to the battery(s).<br><br>Even these are only 90% accurate.<br><a href="http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/TriMetric" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/TriMetric<br><br>O</a>verkill for most, but an awesome tool to understand how much charging &nbsp;and discharging is going on. &nbsp;I installed one after 6 years of van dwelling, and it was surprising how wrong all my earlier assumptions as to battery state of charge were.<br><br>Like many I acted like the alternator was some magical instant battery recharger. That short drives were all that was needed to top them off, and the batteries just needed replacement every 6 months because they were junk, not that I was chronically undercharging them.<br><br>In many ways, Ignorance was bliss, and I'd have a lot more free time not typing novels trying to convince the masses how ineffective the alternator ultimately is in the task of fully charging a distant battery bank.&nbsp;<br><br><br>
 
You write much better than I do. Voltage drop is when the wire resistance with the amps go through causes the voltage to drop and heats up the wires. <br><br>There is stories on boats when raising the anchor requires so may amps that the wires catch afire. <br><br>Welcome to the world of electricity. <br><br>James AKA Lynx
 
wrcsixeight, that's some &nbsp;nice detailed info.... I'm onto plan B already. I found an area behind the drivers seat that has an odd shape that I can use for my batteries against the bathroom wall. I can make a pull out shelf to access &nbsp;them when I have to<br><img rel="lightbox" src="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/conversion van build/IMG_2540_zps2302b80d.jpg" class="bbc_img"><br><br>this will change the cost dramatically on wire.<br><br>I also did also plan on relocating some of my van circuits to the house side as you suggested.<br><br>time to do more research tonight<br><br>Thanks for the input so far everyone, this is helping a lot... keep the ideas coming. I'm going to look for a charging diagram for my van tonight, and draw up some ideas to make this work
 
research.... research......<br>Ford has the voltage regulators built onto the alternator. So it looks like I'll connect my wire to the output bolt of the alt, and go to the 200a solenoid that I bought, and onward to the house batteries. I'll try to get a length for my cable today so I can size it.. I took your advice&nbsp;<span style="line-height: 20px; text-align: left;">wrcsixeight, and I'm going to just buy the straight forward converter. After thinking about it, if I need to replace parts of my system, I can swap things out easier if it's not intergraded into 1 system, or upgrade things down the road as needed.. I also bought a basic fuse block, and some 12v ports to get me going in the cab section of the van...<br></span>next I will need a fuse or a re-settable breaker to go from my alt to my house batteries.... would I also need one leaving the battery before it goes to my fuse block, and inverter? I'm thinking yes? if so, would I keep it 200a, or size it for what the fuse block and inverter is rated for?<br><br>
 
The Inverter should have its own cabling from the battery and its instructions will provide the info on what size fuse or circuit breaker to use.<br><br>I personally do not have a fuse inbetween my fuse block and the feed cable for it from my Battery switch stud, which I use a a buss stud.<br><br>But my feed wire to my Aux fuse block is only about 8 inches long, and is 4 awg. &nbsp;Much overkill there.<br><br>Using a buss bar for the (-) next to the fuse block will make wiring easier and cleaner.<br><br>Fuses are to protect the wiring, so while the alternator might be 130 amps only max, the wiring might be rated for 250 amps. &nbsp; I'd probably fuse for 250 amps. &nbsp;You'll get different answers/opinions here on this.<br><br>I think my circuit breaker from alternator to house battery is 140 amps. &nbsp;( not following my own advice above) The OEM charging circuit has 7 inch sectiona 10 awg length of fusible link. &nbsp;Both are in parallel when my house batteries are connected to the alternator, but much more current flows through the direct feed I added to house battery stud.<br><br>Fusible links are a section of wire in the circuit with a different insulation and is designed to stretch out when overloaded and blown. &nbsp;They are more a slow blow type of fuse and were mostly phased out by the early 90's on vehicles, but still sold and a re an option for fusing larger diameter wiring.
 
Yep I recommend catastrophe fuses at both power sources, one source being the alternator and the second source being your batteries.&nbsp; Like Wrxceight already stated catastrophe fuses are to protect in case of a short to ground that could start a fire.&nbsp; Because of this you want it fused below the capacity of the wiring but usually about 30% above what you plan to run through the wire. This way the wire is protected but any surges to the system in normal operation won't pop the fuse or breaker.<br><br>If you do go with fuses I would recommend ANL fuses they are the cheapest and most readily available fuse.&nbsp; I bought fuses and holders from amazon, and you can always pick them up from car stereo stores if you need replacements asap.<br><br>BTW I like your sharpie sketches on the van floor.
 
what are you planning on showering in that space a gerbil? <img src="/images/boards/smilies/rofl.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img"><br><br>it looks so small...i couldnt imagine anyone even doing the soap the walls and spin method in that space<br><br><img src="/images/boards/smilies/tongue.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img">
 
it's a sit down shower... I'm putting it in mainly to rinse off just in case, or hose a dog off after it finds the mud puddle of its dreams... we don't plan to live in this van full time. the width of the bathroom itself will be 2 feet wide. the total length is 37 inches.. its about the size of an average bedroom closet... I measured the bathroom toilet area in my neighbors huge motor home. believe it or not, its the same size that I'm making. Mine will just be all waterproof<br><br>it will look kinda like this when done<br>this is a sportsmobile bathroom<br>I dont plan on the window.... I'm thinking side vent up higher<br><img rel="lightbox" src="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...ScreenShot2013-07-29at74933AM_zps6baeee0d.png" class="bbc_img">
 
but anyway... I ordered a converter/charger, a fuse block, 200a line breaker, and some 12v ports and a couple usb charging inputs. I'll measure the length of the cable I need today to size it.. I believe I have a small 110 breaker panel in my shop still in a box somewhere.. Is was a lot easier then I though it was going to be to figure out. I wasnt sure of the breaker size from the batteries to the fuse panel yet until I figure out what is going to get wired in and where every think is going. I can get that at anytime or when I order my cable
 
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