Cabinet Building

[Doubleone]

Coroplast is interesting stuff, fairly durable, and lots of different colors.  The US Postal service uses mail bins made out of the stuff.  The only issue would be forming it into drawers.  I tried it for radiator air boxes on the race cars but it doesn't stand up to heat so I ended up going with ABS.  ABS is more expensive and harder to work with, and probably overkill for drawers and bins.  Cyanoacrylate will bond to either but not 100% reliable hold.  VHB tape is a better bond and more forgiving.  Use a heat gun to form some lap joints, similar to how a cardboard box is formed and glued, and use some VHB tape to join it.  I used lots of pop rivets with backup washers on air boxes because they took a beating on the racecars, but I think the VHB tape would work all by itself for small drawers, or maybe just one pop rivet at the top edge to hold things together.  Artsy type folks could even punch holes like in leather working, and sew it together with vinyl cord/lacing.  Heat an ice pick over a flame and it goes right through the stuff. 


Link to VHB tape on amazon
https://smile.amazon.com/3M-Heavy-M...lear&qid=1552299834&s=gateway&sr=8-5-fkmrnull

 

[VanTalk00]

How to make a coroplast container.

This gives the basic idea, and I'm sure there are many ways to improve it to make it stronger.

One key concept in the video is that you bring the sides of the box up and attach one flap to another using screws screwed through one flap and into the natural "holes" on the edge of the other coroplast flap.

Interesting.

How do you think this idea could be improved upon?

 

[VanTalk00]

Found a couple videos that go into some detail:

If you only have 6061, use heat to bend it. Otherwise, it will break.  See this video.
If you can find 5052, you won't need heat to bend it.  See this video.

Correction on this ...  5052 is aluminum sheeting.  The same flexible alloy in a 1" x 1/8" flat is 6063.  Most aluminum flats are the brittle 6061 and, from my local supplier, cost $9 for a 12 foot piece.

 

[VanTalk00]

So maki2, I'm discovering there are lots of different kinds of sizes, types, and suppliers of rivets. What are your recommendations? Anything to be aware of to ensure the strength, tightness, and durability of a rivet connection?

 

[maki2]

Just head to the hardware store and buy the commonly available packages of pop rivets that match the diameter and grip length you need. No special types of rivets are required for assembling the aluminum angles into a cabinet frame for an RV. Most of the rivets in my face frames are 3/16" diameter aluminum.  A few are 1/8" stainless.

You do need to think a little bit about rivet placement because you want the structure to remain square instead of becoming one of those fold up/expanding racks that pivots on a single rivet in a joint. Click and enlarge the photo below, look carefully and you will see that at some intersections I use two rivets and at others only one rivet. Read the text below the photo so you understand what that is all about.

The ones with two rivets hold the intersecting pieces at 90 degrees from each other so my overall frame stays nice and square. If there was only one rivet the two pieces would pivot around the rivet instead of remaining at 90 degrees to each other. I can have single rivets in some of the joints where pieces were crossing each other as long as I have enough  two rivet intersections to maintain the overall free standing shape nice and square.

In this frame I used 3/16" aluminum rivets with a 1/4" grip length as my angle stock was 1/8" thickness. So two layers means a total of 1/4" that is the "grip". Using a grip length longer than needed means that the expansion on the backside does not form as nicely as it should. Using too short means you won't get adequate grip strength. You could go one size up if you had no option such as you ran out of all but a couple of the right size of rivets and you are miles away from the store out in the desert on BLM land. It won't fall apart with a couple of almost the maximum amount of grip rivets in it.

If you don't have enough room in an area for two 3/16" aluminum rivets then put in two 1/8" stainless steel rivets and it will be strong enough structurally and keep that intersection from pivoting. Pulling 1/8" stainless with a hand operated puller is not too difficult. But I know I would struggle to try and hand grip pull a 3/16" stainless. But you don't need 3/16" stainless, the aluminum 3/16" is sufficient for the task of cabinet framing.

 

[maki2]

One other thing I forgot to mention when deciding on the rivet placement. If you are going to have a third piece coming into the intersection, example an aluminum angle that goes from the top front of the face frame back to the wall then you have a potential interference issue.
Those pulled ends of the rivets might get in the way of installing a rivet for that new piece. So think ahead and be sure you place your rivets to one side or another to allow for those additional rivets to have clearance so they too can be installed.

When you design the placement of the pieces of angle you will need to think about how other pieces intersect and fasten. Fortunately that is easy for me as I design in a 3D CAD program and I can see it virtually. But if you are designing in 2D then you will have to visualize it in your head. Or just keep some scrap lengths of angle on your desk to hold together in position so you can see the intersection in real life 3D. Then you can put the rivet locations on your sketch so you don't get it wrong while drilling your faceframe.

 

[VanTalk00]

  The attached images are what I'm working with.  I've done a pretty detailed cost estimate of the aluminum.  It comes to about $200 for these three pieces.

 

[maki2]

nice, I am sure it will be a fun build for you to take on

 

[maki2]

I finally finished  assembling and installing my custom aluminum portable refrigerator slide out rack for my build. Of course I did that job before I started putting doors drawers or electrical connections into the cabinet.  My new to me fridge now has a room of its own!

 

[highdesertranger]

ok I see you used store bought slides. what the weight rating of the slides? how long do they extend? where did you buy them? highdesertranger

 

[maki2]

I bought my drawer slides at Rockler, they are Accuride brand, low profile, full extension rated for 100 lbs, the static load is 150 lbs for 18" slides, the shorter the slide means it can carry more, the longer the slides the rating drops. My fridge when filled is fine for those slides as it is only a 16 liter size capacity and the fridge itself weighs 37 lbs empty. As it won't be full of beer I won't be exceeding the weight load. Of course ice tea weighs the same as beer but I can make that one liter at a time.

I used 16" slides but could have managed with 14" given the size my fridge is. However while I know I wanted that particular fridge I did not own it yet when I designed the pull out and purchased the drawer slides for it.

As you can see in the photo shown above the drawer tray I built for it does not weigh very much because I designed it to have a fairly open structure to allow for good air circulation so that the compressor does not overheat. The fridge is mounted to two cross bars which I made from some salvaged pieces of 1.25 x .5 aluminum T track which means there is no wood bottom blocking the vent on the underside of the portable fridge. I put some 3/4" high rubber blocks into the track at the mounting screw locations for shock absorption. It had rubber feet but those were too tall and wide for my new design.

Most of the aluminum that made up the drawer came from materials I found in our shop space. Of course I realize that not everyone happens to be in an industrial workshop space with a friend who is a product designer who is a hoarder of materials and tools.

I do have a 3" x 1/8"flat bar aluminum section in the side of the drawer with the slides because I needed extra height for the slides above the wheel well. My molded fiberglass trailer is odd shaped at the outside wall with a step in the wall so I had to go above that stepped area which meant moving the rail up higher to get over to that wall surface for the rear attach point. If it had not been for that step in the wall then I could have mounted the slides directly to the 2 x 2 aluminum angle.

Important to note the following paragraph:
One does have to be adaptable to make things work out for putting a portable fridge inside of a cabinet. How you size your slide tray depends on the cabinet space and the size of the fridge. The main criteria is have enough air circulation so that the fridge has "breathing room" so it does not overheat. I have room to add some extra insulation around the sides of the fridge and a little bit extra underneath and on top. But that does not in any way restrict the vents for the compressor unit. You are not supposed to put this type of fridge inside of a cabinet but as stated I don't have solid cabinet doors and sides, instead I have woven mesh panels in the doors and the cabinet side that allow air to circulate. So I still have the recommended 3" inches of space between a wall and the fridges cooling vents. You do have to follow instructions about that requirement to keep a portable fridge in good running condition.

 

[highdesertranger]

thanks for the details. I am going to do something similar with mine. highdesertranger

 

[VanTalk00]

I finally finished  assembling and installing my custom aluminum portable refrigerator slide out rack for my build. Of course I did that job before I started putting doors drawers or electrical connections into the cabinet.  My new to me fridge now has a room of its own!

Can you post a few close-up shots of the assembly without the fridge, so we can see how you assembled it?  Or maybe post the CAD drawing.

Are you going to use drawer slides for the other drawers too?

 

[maki2]

Here is an image taken from the CAD drawing. The aluminum angle used that mounts the slide to the side of the drawer is 2 x 2 x 1/8". The front and rear sides are 1.5 x 1.5 x 1/8" but 2 x 2 x 1/8" would be preferred as it has a little more resistance to bending with the extra height. For cross bars I used 1.25 x .50 T-track bar, because I had some salvaged pieces on hand. But you could use square or rectangular tubing instead as that also has a strong shape that resist bending.

The arrangement of the pieces is important. The side with the slides is the lowest layer. Then the cross wise angles that from the front and rear  rest on top those side pieces. The uppermost layer is the cross bars the fridge mounts to.

If you don't do it that way then too much force will be put onto the rivet fasteners which will make them carry the load instead of having the load transferred down through the pieces of framing. The rivets are there to keep things from shifting not to do a lot of downward load bearing work. The fasteners that will be doing the most downward load bearing are the stainless steel, countersunk screws that hold the frame to the slides.  Of course there is also some force from bouncing over bumps so use larger sized rivets of the correct length or else use screws and nuts.

On full extension slides there is a detent clip to press which allows the frame with the fridge mounted to it to be taken completely out of the cabinet. That is important so that you can see to locate the threaded holes that are in the bottom of the portable fridge. You use the holes the feel screw into to mount the fridge to the frame. Of course you can also add some security straps into the design if you wish to do so.

 

[maki2]

The question was asked will I use the same type of drawer slides for other drawers in my cabinets. The answer is no because I don't have any other drawers that need a 100 lb capacity set of slides. Instead I will be using a bottom slide that has a 30 lb capacity for other drawers.

At Rockler I paid about $19 for the pair of fridge drawer slides. Not a bad price for the quality. There advantage is they are full extension.
I could have chose over travel extension and if my fridge had been a larger unit I would have done so as those slides are typically rated for a higher load. Of course they also come at a higher cost.

The bottom slides for the other drawer are $6 each. I had to choose a bottom mount slide that I could cut a little shorter at the back as my cabinets are not a standard size such as would be found in a house. I could have chosen to use the wood dovetail bottom slides that Rockler sells as they are strong and don't way a lot. But I though because I will be in the moist Pacific NW part of the year that metal was preferable over wood as metal won't absorb moisture.  

So basically I figure out what size the drawer is going to be and how much weight will be stored in it and then I go shopping for drawer slides that work for those qualities. Go shopping with the list of what you need and a plan of your cabinets, there are a lot of types of slides around. Some will work better than others. Some will cost a lot more than others. Some will be easier to install in your situation than others.

Photo is of the undermount drawer slide I will be using for drawers that carry less than 30 lbs for contents and the weight of the drawer itself.

 

[VanTalk00]

Just curious, are you going to build wooden drawers? If not, what are you going to do?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[maki2]

Just curious, are you going to build wooden drawers?  If not, what are you going to do?

Thanks,

Jim

I will find out as soon as I get around to building them. No doubt there will be some thinner plywoods used in many of them. But they won't be built like a typical kitchen cabinet drawers because those are too heavy. Remember the engine that is pulling my lightweight trailer is only 4 cylinders and that influences everything I build.

I learned that I don't have to make every decision in advance and sometimes that is a waste of time as I might make a small change in a design that can impact a string of other decisions. Drawers are one of the last components in cabinet building and there are many variations of them. I will end up using several of those variations. We know for sure there will be at least three variations as the fridge slide-out is now the second variation. I suspect I will end up with at least 5 variations or maybe even 7. The first variation was the pull out wheeled base for my toilet. I even have variations on how door panels are attached. That is the advantage of a one of a kind custom cabinet installation, I can truly make things one of a kind as needed and I can also take advantage of materials that are on hand in our work space. The work space has an accumulation of 50 years of materials in it. Some things such as drawer glides were saved over the years from previous cabinetry builds my friend did for his office and work shop. I may or may not end up using them. But for sure it will be figured out in the next few months.

 

[VanTalk00]

I look forward to hearing about them.

Those were good points about the order of cross-pieces and distributing the load - made me re-examine my design. I have some places with unavoidable shear loads on rivets connecting an L to a vertical flat piece, but I intend to also glue those joints, so I'm thinking the rivet will mainly serve to clamp the pieces together with the glue doing the heavy lifting. May use nuts and bolts where possible.

It's all an experiment. I'm guessing I'll have to re-build some stuff, so I'm trying to think modularly. I wish more people would post about lessons learned from failures. Not in our nature, I suppose.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I wish more people would post about lessons learned from failures. Not in our nature, I suppose.

People do,,,,, what is not in our nature,,,, is listening to those that have gone before,,,  some lessons we have to learn ourselves.

 

[maki2]

I have not had a failure so far in the cabinet build other than I forgot to measure twice a couple of times. Which of course is so common it is not worth talking about.

Plus I changed my mind a few times about how I was going to install some things but that too is common. I suppose that is a type of failure but it is certainly a very common thing when making something you have never made before. All you have to do is look at the list of drawing revision dates on project plans for buildings, airplanes, automobiles to realize just how common that is.