Buying and using land without attracting attention

[wayne49]

In my experience in searching for a space of my own, I have found that at this point in time, any land that is cheap is cheap because the land has little utility value.

 

[bebewanna]

I am on 1/2 acre... NM

The choice came down to this
Property where obtaining water was easy or a place with zero possibility of water but a place where I can live in my van, build a mni cabin with no hassle and haul and pay for water.

There are not lots of options.... Everyone out here is hauling water or $250 delivery for 1500 gallons.
Water association, you must have a building or be building, but the water is not drinkable.

I pay 35 cents gallon for drinking water at Twice the Ice stand.
Yesterday I had 68f.....today 72f

I will happily haul water to beat the heat at 8100 feet... Plus no Govt harassment

Life is a trade off

 

[bullfrog]

I believe the Rio Verdi Valley in Arizona which has 500 or so homes built on land with little or no water has until mid September to figure out where they will get water. The city of Scottsdale will no longer allow the sale of water to the Rio Verdi Valley residents due to their own extreme lack of water for their own residents in Scottsdale. An example of what can happen with many that choose to not consider where their water will come from when they buy and build on arid land. Potable water is a limited and valuable resource.

 

[rruff]

...any land that is cheap is cheap because the land has little utility value.

Do you mean lack of utilities?

Many people here are looking at property as they get older so they don’t have to do the physical activity involved in packing up and moving every 14 days or so. ...My advise is if you are going to buy property to at least buy property where the grid and other utilities are available.

That wouldn't be low budget... at least not in the west. If we live long enough, I suppose most of us will eventually get to a point where we can't drive, can't walk or do much of anything, and then we are going to need help... no matter where we are. Nursing home?

In the transition period, where vagabonding is too difficult and regular care is not necessary, living semi-independently in a home of some kind would make sense I guess. But is being off grid really that much of burden? On-grid houses are expensive to start with, and require a lot of upkeep too that you'll have to pay for. I don't see that being cheaper or easier than a simple offgrid place that's already set up. Rather your expenses for an offgrid hovel will be less, and maybe a lot less. At any rate it's going to cost more to live when we get that old unless we have kids or friends we can rely on for help. Either way living in the boonies would probably not be practical.

Bottom line for me is that I don't see the point in a homebase. If I outlive my ability to vagabond, I'll see what life has to offer then. I'll probably keel over someday while out on a hike in the wilderness, and by the time anyone wonders where I am the buzzards will have picked my bones clean.... no worries then!

 

[bullfrog]

Escapees in Livingston Texas has a “Care Center” for just those situations as well as your partner/spouse/care giver if you have one. You can volunteer to work there and check it out. No need to make life harder and much more expensive buying valuable land. Many family owned RV parks and neighborhoods have unofficial groups of wonderful peoples that volunteer to help those that may temporarily need it.

 

[user 423]

^ Possibly a nice way to make that 'final escape'...

 

[rruff]

New article on the Colorado River water crisis. One way or another, there will be substantial changes there in the next few months, not years.
"The Colorado River drought is the first climate disaster the U.S. legally has to deal with"

Pretty good article... except for some of the hyperbolic language that seems standard these days.

"Kuzdas stressed that while climate change has brought the issue to a head, the catastrophe facing the Colorado is self-inflicted and dates to well before the modern era of climate science."

"In fact, the river flooded more than once in the early part of the 20th century, causing widespread damage and sending a message that the water was apparently plentiful, but tree-ring studies have subsequently demonstrated that the early 1900s were as wet a period as the river has seen dating back to at least the 1500s."

“We over-allocated the river a century ago."

"Experts agree that basically all sectors will have to make some concessions, but with 70 to 80 percent of all the water used going to agriculture, it is clear where the bulk of the reduction in use will have to come from."

----------------------------------------------------------

The "catastrophe" is that the water resources were over-allocated 100 years ago, and they now need to be renegotiated. They put off doing this for as long as they possibly could, hoping that they'd be saved by increased rainfall. Of course no party in this agreement is holding up their hands and saying "ok, I'll take less"... so there will be lots of legal battling involved. Apparently there is no framework in place for dealing with lower water resources. It will be messy for sure, but is that really a disaster?

Most of the water is used for Ag. Some farms will simply use the water more efficiently, some will transition to lower water use crops, and some will sell their allocation and quit. And some residential users will need to waste less one way or another, through higher prices or restrictions. I see lots of negotiating of allocations for $$$. Some will be happier than others. Hopefully the new agreement will be sustainable going forward.

 

[Morgana]

Nothing hyperbolic there. The problems are both real and severe. People on this forum will be affected by them.

The mere fact that you can fantasize a happy ending doesn't mean it's going to happen.

 

[rruff]

This is the real world, Morgana. It is a self inflicted man-made "problem" and it can and will be resolved.

I think way too many people are infected with fear and anxiety. The real world is a pretty awesome place actually.

 

[user 22017]

This is the real world, Morgana. It is a self inflicted man-made "problem" and it can and will be resolved.

I think way too many people are infected with fear and anxiety. The real world is a pretty awesome place actually.

I have no fear, nor anxiety... just stress when babysitting 3-5 grandkids at once. I also believe the world is a pretty awesome place. And like Morgana, I know we must stay informed and, if possible, act on the info. Eg. write to our representatives

Just because an issue is man-made does not mean it will be resolved. We need regulatory agencies to correct the mistakes. When we starve government agencies, the problems worsen.

 

[Morgana]

 

[thebarefootbadger]

I still can't wrap my head around the idea that they divided up a "pie" that didn't exist and everyone said oh, ok, cool. Could you imagine if you lived in a family of four with a single wage earner receiving $30,000 a year, and that person said, "I've solved the problem of money for our family, I'm giving everyone here an annual allowance of $20,000 each." Whoopee, thank you. .... Um .....

 

[BelgianPup]

If I were considering buying a small piece of land (1/2 to 1 acre) in the SW for winter camping, I would think about it as a 'disposable' location, and do the associated math.

Suppose I could find a piece of land where RV living is currently allowed (no guarantees for the long term), with no utilities, for $1,500.

I would compare that cost with traveling for the same period of time. For instance, with gas currently costing about $5/gallon, I could buy 300 gallons of gas for $1,500. If my rig gets about 15 miles per gallon, I could travel 4,500 miles.

If all I have for income is $1,100/mo. from SS, it looks like I would be spending a bit over 10% of one year's income for the purchase (this doesn't include taxes). But I would be living there for approx. 3 to 4 months, 1/4 to 1/3 of that first year. But the second year and all following years would only cost me the price of the annual property taxes, plus fuel costs for local shopping.

But suppose the local laws change after a few or several years, or existing laws are suddenly enforced? Would the money I saved in fuel justify selling, or even just abandoning, the property?

But suppose things were looking good for staying, and I wanted to build a tiny house of 300 sqft, with rainwater collection and basic solar power?

For every 100 sq ft of roof area, I could collect about 135 gallons of useful water, so that would be about 400 gallons per inch of rainfall on 300 sf of roof.

But some people would be quick to say, "But that isn't enough -- I would need a 1200 sqft house to collect enough water".

NO, you don't need a larger house, you just need a larger roof. Like a metal collection panel sitting 3 feet off the ground (easier to clean) nearby for added collection area.

 

[Frood]

I still can't wrap my head around the idea that they divided up a "pie" that didn't exist and everyone said oh, ok, cool. Could you imagine if you lived in a family of four with a single wage earner receiving $30,000 a year, and that person said, "I've solved the problem of money for our family, I'm giving everyone here an annual allowance of $20,000 each." Whoopee, thank you. .... Um .....

Unless I misunderstood what I read about it, the problem is that when they divided it up the pie had extra whip cream on it that they thought was standard... so between going back to normal, and then the reduced size of the pie, it's exacerbating the issue even more...

I would compare that cost with traveling for the same period of time. For instance, with gas currently costing about $5/gallon, I could buy 300 gallons of gas for $1,500. If my rig gets about 15 miles per gallon, I could travel 4,500 miles.

If all I have for income is $1,100/mo. from SS, it looks like I would be spending a bit over 10% of one year's income for the purchase (this doesn't include taxes). But I would be living there for approx. 3 to 4 months, 1/4 to 1/3 of that first year. But the second year and all following years would only cost me the price of the annual property taxes, plus fuel costs for local shopping.

For every 100 sq ft of roof area, I could collect about 135 gallons of useful water, so that would be about 400 gallons per inch of rainfall on 300 sf of roof.

I try to use math when making major decisions too. If you calculate correctly the numbers definitely won't let you down or lead you wrong. Learned long ago that using my gut or going by my feelings is a sure path to failure.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

xxxxxx

Even Terilingua gets 12" per year.

Terilingua got 6.4" of rain in 2020.

A 30x40 roof could collect 9,000 gallons/yr.

Materials for a 30X40 steel roof will cost ~$14,400 ($12/sq.ft. in 2021 prices). Asphalt shingles would only cost ~$9600 (I would be concerned about chemicals leaching out of the these shingles). That doesn't include the structure holding the roof.

The places I've seen where you can load your own water are nearly free. It's the hauling that cost money, but still you can buy 2,000 gal for ~$200, hauled. If you don't need much water, there's zero worry.

Cities are not going to continue selling water to outsiders when they are forcing their citizens to conserve and jacking up the price of water.

I still can't wrap my head around the idea that they divided up a "pie" that didn't exist and everyone said oh, ok, cool.

In 1922 when the 'pie' was divided LA county had less than 10 million people, Arizona had 351,000 people, and Nevada had 22,000. Plenty of water and good rainfall in the feeders to the Colorado River.
Populations exploded, agriculture grew exponentially, industry demanded more and more water. Nobody predicted or foresaw; politicians only see to the next election.

 

[JDub]

If I were considering buying a small piece of land (1/2 to 1 acre) in the SW for winter camping, I would think about it as a 'disposable' location, and do the associated math.

Suppose I could find a piece of land where RV living is currently allowed (no guarantees for the long term), with no utilities, for $1,500.

I would compare that cost with traveling for the same period of time. For instance, with gas currently costing about $5/gallon, I could buy 300 gallons of gas for $1,500. If my rig gets about 15 miles per gallon, I could travel 4,500 miles.

If all I have for income is $1,100/mo. from SS, it looks like I would be spending a bit over 10% of one year's income for the purchase (this doesn't include taxes). But I would be living there for approx. 3 to 4 months, 1/4 to 1/3 of that first year. But the second year and all following years would only cost me the price of the annual property taxes, plus fuel costs for local shopping.

But suppose the local laws change after a few or several years, or existing laws are suddenly enforced? Would the money I saved in fuel justify selling, or even just abandoning, the property?

But suppose things were looking good for staying, and I wanted to build a tiny house of 300 sqft, with rainwater collection and basic solar power?

For every 100 sq ft of roof area, I could collect about 135 gallons of useful water, so that would be about 400 gallons per inch of rainfall on 300 sf of roof.

But some people would be quick to say, "But that isn't enough -- I would need a 1200 sqft house to collect enough water".

NO, you don't need a larger house, you just need a larger roof. Like a metal collection panel sitting 3 feet off the ground (easier to clean) nearby for added collection area.

I have a large metal roof on my home (the house is ~2100 SFt. I use a portion of it where 2 pitches meet and I have a pipe and barrel system to collect rainwater. It takes just 10 - 15 min of heavy rain (I don't open the pipe till it's rained a bit and washed most of the dirt out (goes in the gutters) to fill 55 gallons. In a pinch, I could probably collect enough on a regular basis in the T Storm season to supply basic daily requirements for weeks at a time by channeling it to fill a larger catchment than the barrel. Very common thing to do upland on the Big Island back home.

Cheers!

 

[Frood]

Materials for a 30X40 steel roof will cost ~$14,400 ($12/sq.ft. in 2021 prices). Asphalt shingles would only cost ~$9600 (I would be concerned about chemicals leaching out of the these shingles). That doesn't include the structure holding the roof.

Don't forget the tarp-on-the-ground option... If you have a hillside available you can spread a plastic tarp over it set up so that the runoff will flow into an underground cistern or water tank. Other issues with this method including the need for additional filtering, but it's significantly cheaper than needing to build a house, roof, carport, or porch...

 

[Frood]

I have a large metal roof on my home (the house is ~2100 SFt. I use a portion of it where 2 pitches meet and I have a pipe and barrel system to collect rainwater. It takes just 10 - 15 min of heavy rain (I don't open the pipe till it's rained a bit and washed most of the dirt out (goes in the gutters) to fill 55 gallons. In a pinch, I could probably collect enough on a regular basis in the T Storm season to supply basic daily requirements for weeks at a time by channeling it to fill a larger catchment than the barrel. Very common thing to do upland on the Big Island back home.

Cheers!

This is exactly what a lot of homesteaders do in areas with sufficient rain... Let less run off into the gutters and use larger storage containers. The below homesteader in AZ has done it all pretty much DIY and seems to be doing well...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC41S9MSkeQ1TWo1URYLeRuw

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sufficient rain is the key. You have to do the calculations to determine if you can collect enough for your use + reserve.

 

[user 423]

But suppose things were looking good for staying, and I wanted to build a tiny house of 300 sqft, with rainwater collection and basic solar power?

For every 100 sq ft of roof area, I could collect about 135 gallons of useful water, so that would be about 400 gallons per inch of rainfall on 300 sf of roof.

This July monsoon here in Cochise Co. we could have saved a LOT of water. It's really been coming down. We get about 11" of rain per year and it seems it's all coming down NOW....

A guesstimate for the 3 buildings here on the property would be about 21,000 gallons/year.

According to the graphic on post #48, we're in a severe drought area.