Buying and using land without attracting attention

[Hybrid-000]

Depends on where you are. Phoenix gets 7"/year so you need a HUGE catchment and storage if you're planning to rely on rainwater alone.

DBB

 

[John in Montreal]

Just get a water trailer.

 

[rruff]

Just get a water trailer.

Yes, this is your backup. Or for $0 investment, you can have someone haul water to you if it's a dry year. Don't need enough catchment for worst case.

 

[peteg59]

Interesting that this thread has morphed into a discussion on water!
I'd be concerned about water quality in collecting rain, or storing voluminous quantity of water for too long...

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just get a water trailer.

..... you can have someone haul water to you if it's a dry year.....

If the severe drought continues in the SW, the assumption that water will be available to be purchased from anyone for a reasonable cost isn't a good one IMO.

 

[rruff]

The chance is of course higher than zero, but... based on this chart a major drought is a period where rainfall is 10-15% below the long term average. That isn't a lot... which is why the flora and fauna of the SW hasn't really been affected, even though we've been in a severe drought for 20 years already. The worst drought was the one in the 800s where there was ~80 year period where rainfall averaged about 92% of normal.

How bad do you think it would have to get before you wouldn't be able to buy water, and how rational is that scenario?

 

[tx2sturgis]

Depends on where you are. Phoenix gets 7"/year so you need a HUGE catchment and storage if you're planning to rely on rainwater alone.

DBB

Back on the topic of water in the 'buying land' thread....how did that happen?

Yep, less than about an inch a month of rain, on average. And most of that falls during the monsoon season with very little rain the rest of the year. So that means that if you are able to capture and store the water, you need a way to keep it clean and sterile for months if you plan to actually consume it. But personally I wouldn't ever consider captured rainwater as drinkable water especially in an area with such high levels of airborne pollutants and tiny amounts of infrequent rainfall to 'cleanse' the air.

Not to mention trying to keep a catchment surface clean and ready when needed.

Yes, there are some rainwater catchment systems in use, but they generally have VERY large storage tanks and the water is used primarily for landscape use. Cactus gardens usually don't need much water!

 

[user 22017]

How bad do you think it would have to get before you wouldn't be able to buy water, and how rational is that scenario?

Could you share a link to that chart, please?

 

[rruff]

Could you share a link to that chart, please?

https://nca2009.globalchange.gov/southwest-drought-timeline/index.html
I searched "southwest rainfall history" and posted the graphic. I guess it's actually CO river volume.

 

[user 423]

Isn't Musk working on desalination? He's gonna save us all!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

How bad do you think it would have to get before you wouldn't be able to buy water, and how rational is that scenario?

About as bad as it is now:

SACRAMENTO — California and six other Western states have less than 60 days to pull off a seemingly impossible feat: Cut a multi-way deal to dramatically reduce their consumption of water from the dangerously low Colorado River.
If they don’t, the federal government will do it for them.

Politico, 7/06/2022​

​

Scottsdale, Ariz. (Nov. 1, 2021) – “Scottsdale’s commercial and residential fill station shall be shut down or restricted at this stage. Any water hauling operations will cease unless the water hauling customer, whether residential or commercial, can prove indisputably that the hauled water is being supplied directly to a city of Scottsdale resident or business.”

From links in Morgana's post #32

The drought that has enveloped southwestern North America for the past 22 years is the region’s driest megadrought—defined as a drought lasting two decades or longer — since at least the year 800, according to a new study in the journal Nature Climate Change.

Columbia Climate School, 2/14/22​

 

[user 22017]

https://nca2009.globalchange.gov/southwest-drought-timeline/index.html
I searched "southwest rainfall history" and posted the graphic. I guess it's actually CO river volume.

Below that graphic it says "Models indicate that, in the future, droughts will continue to occur, but will become hotter, and thus more severe, over time.1"
So, it is rational to expect that water will not be available for everyone. It already is not available to everyone... depending where you live.

It is silly for us to debate the effect climate change has on us, while ignoring the elephants in the room. The petroleum industry (among other industries and the military) and our representatives (both parties) who are doing nothing to address the climate emergency.

 

[John in Montreal]

This looks pretty simple. The bottom of the tarp is filled with sand and pebbles to hold it in place and filters the water. Under the sand is a little hole covered in wire mesh. You could set this up in a day.

 

[rruff]

About as bad as it is now

So, it is rational to expect that water will not be available for everyone. It already is not available to everyone... depending where you live.

No... what is rational to expect is that *less* water will be available... not that you won't be able to get any, and therefore go without... die of thirst, be unable to wash, etc.

What is the natural result when a common resource goes from being plentiful, to less plentiful? The price increases so people use less. That's it. We are in the habit of being incredibly wasteful with water and all sorts of things, so I don't see this as even being bad, let alone a crisis.

This looks pretty simple. The bottom of the tarp is filled with sand and pebbles to hold it in place and filters the water. Under the sand is a little hole covered in wire mesh. You could set this up in a day.

True, but it's also quite small. People use roofs to catch water because they are already there. But you can expand your catchment pretty cheaply. Imagine a buried 2,000 gal tank with a catchment surface that is just a packed dirt cone ~50' diameter with a waterproof membrane on top, that drains into the tank. No structure needed. A 50' dia circle will collect >1,200 gal per inch of rain.

 

[user 423]

What water shortage?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

No... what is rational to expect is that *less* water will be available... not that you won't be able to get any, and therefore go without... die of thirst, be unable to wash, etc.

The Bureau of Reclamation is expected to declare a Tier 2 water crisis in early 2023 for users of water from the Colorado River. I think it is a bad bet to expect cities to sell bulk water to non-residents when they are increasing prices a lot and restricting water use for their residents.

..... Imagine a buried 2,000 gal tank.....

The cost of living on cheap land just went up considerably:
cost of 2000 gallon food grade poly tank = ~$1900

if it is above ground you need to raise your collection 'roof' above the tank or pump it in ($$).​

the water in the tank will be at least night time air temperature​

tonight in Terilingua avg. air temp is above 80ºF.​

cost of burying a 2000 gallon (10 cu.yd.) tank = about $150 per cu.yd.

bury to ground level = $1500.​

bury to ground temp at ~ 68ºF (6 ft) = about $3000.​

bury to ground temp at ~60ºF (12 ft) = ~$6000.​

pump and piping to transport water to home = $200 - $500.​

Add cost of filtration.
Add cost of keeping tank clean.

What water shortage?

Great example of how cost drives usage. Keep the cost of a commodity artificially low and people will find lots of wasteful ways to use it.

 

[user 34834]

If you are worried about what the neighbors might think, you probably want to buy elsewhere.

If you want to do your own thing and get to meet to locals, by all means, buy it. For crying out loud, take some risks, live a little people.

People are you afraid of their own shadow to take a risk these days. Time to put on your big adult pants and grow a back bone. Real life tends to hand out black eyes to the weak.

Life hands black eyes out regardless. Risk has nothing to do with backbone. It's just math.

 

[John in Montreal]

True, but it's also quite small. People use roofs to catch water because they are already there. But you can expand your catchment pretty cheaply. Imagine a buried 2,000 gal tank with a catchment surface that is just a packed dirt cone ~50' diameter with a waterproof membrane on top, that drains into the tank. No structure needed. A 50' dia circle will collect >1,200 gal per inch of rain.

Yeah they're small but you could probably use much bigger tarps and catch more water.

I can manage comfortably on 5 gallons a day. Apparently the driest parts of Arizona only get 3" of rain a year. And much of the state it doesn't rain at all from April thru June. But collecting 1800 gallons of water a year shouldn't be too difficult..

 

[Bella]

Going all the way back to the original post...I believe Bob bought the land not only to have a bug out location where he could park his vehicle and live for awhile in case of some calamity (permanently? did he say that?) but as or more importantly, he bought it in order to have a physical address - no more risk of giving an insurer the wrong garaging address and a place to give banks or public agencies and actual physical address that it is. At the end of the day, does owning a parcel solve those issues? (provided that the local authorities give it an address)..... in terms of water, isn't that more an issue in the west, than on the east coast?

 

[Frood]

The chance is of course higher than zero, but... based on this chart a major drought is a period where rainfall is 10-15% below the long term average. That isn't a lot... which is why the flora and fauna of the SW hasn't really been affected, even though we've been in a severe drought for 20 years already. The worst drought was the one in the 800s where there was ~80 year period where rainfall averaged about 92% of normal.

How bad do you think it would have to get before you wouldn't be able to buy water, and how rational is that scenario?

Actually a huge part of the problem is massively increasing demand and small water users being deprioritized in favor of more profitable water buyers. In 1900 AZ had 123 thousand people. Now there are 7.1 million. NV had 42 thousand. Now there are over 3 million. NM had 195 thousand, now 2 million. Utah, 277 thousand, now over 3 million. Oh, and California... 1.5 million in 1900, and now... 39.5 million people. Thats a LOT of increase in the water needs, both for individuals and for increased agriculture, all on the same or LOWER amount of available water.

I pulled the above data all from https://npg.org/library/population-data.html