Burning Man sues BLM

[DLTooley]

Black Rock City LLC, the organizers of the Burning Man festival in Nevada, has sued the BLM and partner agencies over fees and the associated process issues including fee rationalization and appeal.  

https://reason.com/2019/12/18/burni...ermitting-fees-and-a-sketchy-appeals-process/

 

[Reducto]

It's all part of the dance they go through every year or two, negotiating fees and terms. BLM wants to limit growth and suck as much cash out of it for themselves and local governments as possible, BM wants to let everyone in and to police it themselves.

 

[bullfrog]

Like many things government agencies do this is a sort of gray area. No government agency wants to appear to be allowing people get high, hurt themselves or others no matter what the method, destroy the land by pollution or in general behave in any way not acceptable to the general public while in site of the public on public land as they depend on public tax dollars to function. These events occur only a few weeks a year even though they may be attended by many, every individual complaint gets attention and it creates a lot of extra work that is not budgeted for. These complaints are usually made by the people that live locally but sometimes even by those attending. When the people you know and have to deal with everyday start to complain and you have to realize how they vote and feel about local issues will affect you and how you will do and pay for work that needs to be done, you listen. A lot of decisions about requirements for such an event are left up to the local or district agency head administrator who is attempting to avoid complaints and extra spending. Usually the easiest way to avoid complaints and extra spending is to not allow them at all, the next best way is to make it difficult to meet the requirements and lastly delay permission until it is too late for the event to occur. I think this is what we have seen with the RTR as well and is one reason local support, communication and relations with local administrators is so important. When the event gets large enough lawyers and the courts become the only way to manage all the concerns.

 

[DLTooley]

Presumably Black Rock City has an argument on costs, the lack of due process is typical and supports the cost argument.

This has been a big topic in real estate development where the costs are transferred to local governments and utilities - taxpayers and ratepayers.

 

[Qxxx]

Actually $2,953,966.79 seems pretty reasonable for 78,000 people, or $37/person for the week, considering BLM wanted $600,000 for RTR. Burning Man must be pulling in at least $39-million in ticket sales, compared to $0 for HOWA.

 

[ZoNiE]

good point.

 

[Cammalu]

Qxxx. To be precise the BLM wanted $6 a day per person. That’s not that much for people to pay and they would have done the counting and money collecting, etc.

 

[Qxxx]

Yes, I remember. I'd have been happy to pay it myself, but I guess Bob has always wanted to keep RTR free for participants. OTOH, Burning Man is a very big business, taking in $30 million plus, and has a massive impact on an otherwise pristine desert playa. BLM should be charging them, AFAIAC.

 

[Cammalu]

I hope they can get land so everyone can camp next year.

 

[DLTooley]

As I recall range allotment rights for grazing are $1.50 per head per season. What’s the environmental cost of an oil lease?

The management of public lands is driven by the principle of responsible, multiple, use. Any charge over that is extortion.

 

[Qxxx]

Well, let's face it. Big Ranching, Big Oil, Big Timber, and Big Mining are getting away with total murder when it comes to the trivial fees they pay to use public lands. It pays to have Big Money to buy Big Lobbyists. Everything in this country is weighted in favor of the Rich. I'm surprised the Head on the Statue of Liberty hasn't exploded by now.

Not hardly ....
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jbcAAOSwPhdVQQJz/s-l300.jpg

 

[highdesertranger]

more misinformation. some of you really need to do some research before spewing nonsense.

the rate for grazing is $1.35 AUM(animal unit month) so that is 1.35 per animal per month. so if a ranch has 500 head the cost would be $675 per month. which must be paid in advance. BTW nobody has a lease for a month it's for a season which is between 4-8 months depending on the area.

now if a rancher wants to sublease his grazing rights the fees shoot way up from between 3.03 to 15.63 per AUM. that is on top of the $1.35 AUM. so now for those same 500 head it would be 2,190/month all the way up to 8,490/month. again the price all depends on the area.

also if one of your cows happens to wonder onto BLM land and the BLM sees it there are penalties the range from 10.00/AUM to 46.00/AUM again depending on the area. that is for you unwittingly letting one of your cows wonder over to BLM land.

if you knowingly let your cows graze without a permit the fines double to 30.00/AUM to 138.00/AUM for repeat offenders the price triples.

BTW the BLM does not deal in partial AUM's if they see one of your cows on BLM land you get charge for 1 AUM even if it was only there for a day.

don't let your hate blind you, and don't believe everything hate groups tell you

highdesertranger

 

[Qxxx]

I don't know how "blind hate" came into this. But anyone who doesn't understand how everything in the system is weighted in favor of the rich just doesn't understand the realities of modern life around these parts. Massive transfers of wealth to the rich, starting about 40 years ago. The number of lobbyists skyrocketing.

Burning Man "should" pay for use of the playa.

 

[bullfrog]

It always upsets people when they have to pay to use public land, but the sad fact is when humans occupy or use the land even for a short period of time they seldom do so without damaging or taking away some of the lands value. As the land is owned by everyone and those that don't use it wish it to remain the way it was before the people using it did so it seems justifiable to require payment for restoration or damages done. So many for so long have had the privilege of public land use for free and altered or abused it to a point the people not using it have noticed and they are demanding the government manage it better with everyone's interest in mind. GOOD LUCK!!! LOL!!!

 

[highdesertranger]

did you even read what I posted. blind hate was never mentioned.

of course the system favors the rich. the more regulations that are in place the more it favors large multinational corporations. you need to hire all those lawyer's so they can navigate though all the laws and regulations, that ain't cheap. pretty much cuts out any small time operator.

highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

Ironic that as the number of participants attending the RTR using BLM land grew we ran into the same problems as the small ranchers, mining operations and now Burning Man do! Wonder what we can learn from the large corporations? Maybe it is time to learn how to better deal with the BLM through politics, media and lawyers as large corporations do or find better alternatives before the situation gets out of hand and the BLM turns all its land into "wildlife study areas".

 

[Qxxx]

Ummm, "don't let your hate blind you, and don't believe everything hate groups tell you".

"pretty much cuts out any small time operator". That's part of the same damn process that's been happening all over society. The scales continually tilt even more so.

 

[Qxxx]

... now Burning Man do!  

It was only a matter of time with them. Continual growth, and 78,000 people is just huge. Likewise, the Rainbow family has been creating problems for years in the Natl Forests. 10,000 and more at the get togethers, and leaving huge messes behind. Some things just need to be controlled.

 

[DLTooley]

Accurate measures of impact would be a good place to start.

Do you recall the Gold King Mine Disaster? Pretty much by chance I called BS on the same engineer that same summer in support of a landowner who was concerned about his practices.

The deal there was a superfund ‘settlement’ that used emergency procedures to avoid engineering, public process, and costs.

The history of the Gold King was a bit more complex, but it’s previous (liable) ownership is still the biggest legal force in the Telluride area. And the same Federal electeds that signed off on the deal.

I’d like to know when they are going to pay as well as cease harassing me.

 

[Qxxx]

Yeah, I remember the Animas River, Summitville Mine near Alamosa, and Yak Tunnel near Leadville disasters. As I recall, there are 50 miles or more of mining tunnels going between Telluride and the area south of Ouray. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But Big Mining is in a class by itself for creating environmental disasters. Water gets into the mines, builds up over time, and runs out into the rivers with toxic wastes.[/font]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_water_spill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summitville_mine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadville_mining_district#Yak_tunnel

From what I can gather, the BLM isn't specifically disallowing events like Burning Man and RTR, where large groups are gathering, but imposing more or less "reasonable" fees IMO for such large scale use of public lands. $37 per week at Burning Man is only $5.20 per day, or the price of a latte at Starbucks. People paying $500 or so for a ticket, and driving in from all over the country, can certainly afford that. RTR got on the radar because of the rapid growth in number of participants.

OTOH, the Rainbow get togethers are historically complete disasters for the places they use. Those people seem to have little sense of responsibility built into their brains.