Box Trucks - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[ArtW]

even the 15' UHaul is below 10000
and 7 feet inside
https://www.uhaul.com/Trucks/15ft-Moving-Truck-Rental/DC/

 

[highdesertranger]

art that link you just posted that box truck has a GVWR of 14,500 lbs. that is what it's registered as. it also weighs 8,115 empty. that's unladen weight and has nothing to do with the registration. that is a commercial vehicle must be registered commercial and must stop at scales. unless you can get it registered as an RV. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

On a related note, does anyone know at what weight-point you can no longer drive a commercial vehicle with an ordinary passenger car driver's license?  I know RVs are - mostly - exempt from that.  Although I think in some states you may need a special air-brakes endorsement if your motor home uses air instead of hydraulics.  I'm just wondering if a box truck is heavy enough, can it be a problem unless or until you can get it retitled as an RV?

 

[arctic cat]

I'm to chime in this subject, I used to work for the FMCSA a while back and a little verse on their regulations.

Under 49 CFR a Commercial Vehicle is defined 49 C.F.R Part 390.5 and I quote “Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.” you can find this regulation right here https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.5
 
Now let take a look at licensing requirements.  Licensing requirement are found under 49 CFR Part 383.  383.5 defined a commercial vehicle as follows: Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle—

(1) Has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or

(2) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater; or
(3) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(4) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section

Even under California Motor Vehicle Code 260 the definition is as follows:
A "commercial vehicle" is a vehicle which is used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property (for example, trucks and pickups).
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/online/fee_calc/vehdef

Keywords is commerce.  IF THERE IS NO COMMERCE.   THE VEHICLE IS NOT CONSIDERED A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE. 

Even at that 49 CFR Part 390.3 (3) state "The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" is exempted
.
With that said you could fall into the commerce part very easily and as a matter of fact a lot people fall into the commerce part and don't even know it even driving an RV.    

Bottom line:   You can own a 5 TON truck and as long be considered a NON CMV.     As far as insurance go they have their own criteria, I have a surplus Air Force Van and is insured under a commercial policy, even that I don't have any business.   Which is actually a lot cheaper $204 a year than a regular insurance policy.

If you have any question in regard to the CMV part shoot it on a PM as each specific situation may be different.

 

[arctic cat]

On a related note, does anyone know at what weight-point you can no longer drive a commercial vehicle with an ordinary passenger car driver's license?  I know RVs are - mostly - exempt from that.  Although I think in some states you may need a special air-brakes endorsement if your motor home uses air instead of hydraulics.  I'm just wondering if a box truck is heavy enough, can it be a problem unless or until you can get it retitled as an RV?

As long as your vehicle don't meet the definition of a CMV on 49 CFR PART 390.5 or Part 383  There is not such thing as AIR BRAKE endorsement in any state.   Where people get confused is mostly on older trucks and busses when they took the test back in the days and the vehicle DID NOT HAVE AIR BRAKES at the time of testing and a restriction was place in the license, just like long time ago they did if you took your test on a manual or automatic transmission

 

[arctic cat]

art that link you just posted that box truck has a GVWR of 14,500 lbs.  that is what it's registered as.  it also weighs 8,115 empty.  that's unladen weight and has nothing to do with the registration.  that is a commercial vehicle must be registered commercial and must stop at scales.  unless you can get it registered as an RV.   highdesertranger

UHAUL and a lot vehicle manufacturer rate their vehicles at less than 26,000 LBS to sell their truck as NON CDL vehicles.    The US DOT used the GVWR or GCWR to determined when a vehicle is either exempt from regulations.

Examples: a vehicle rated at 10,001 LBS become a US DOT regulated vehicle.   A vehicle rated as a 26,001 LBS require a CDL IF there is commerce involved.    

 

[highdesertranger]

in CA any vehicle over 10k is considered commercial(except RV's) you must display you DOT and CA # on the cab, and you must stop at scales. as far as a driver license if you are under 26k and only have 2 axles you can drive on a regular license. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

MY 3/4 ton Ford SuperDuty pickup has commercial plates.  I was told that non-commercial plates were not an option here in NY because it weighed too much for them.

I believe the Feds set MINIMUM standard, but the states can set them higher if they want.

 

[Almost There]

And here in Ontario, my 3/4 ton GMC 2500 Savana has commercial plates with a special sticker that says 'for personal use only'.

Without that sticker I would have to stop at the inspection stations and pay commercial insurance rates.

 

[arctic cat]

MY 3/4 ton Ford SuperDuty pickup has commercial plates.  I was told that non-commercial plates were not an option here in NY because it weighed too much for them.

I believe the Feds set MINIMUM standard, but the states can set them higher if they want.

Yes they can set own rule  FOR THEIR RESIDENTS.  License plates and insurance is determined by each regulatory agency in their respective state.  There is something called the DRIVER LICENSE COMPACT and all state with exception of Georgia, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Michigan, and Tennessee are members.  But even those states usually reciprocate their laws with other state.     

State can set special requirements for their residents and also for INTRASTATE Commerce.   USUALLY with some exception the state adopt rules to relax the federal regulations from their state.  But in doing so the states are usually very careful as there is GRANT MONEY involves in that decisions.  But that is another $20 conversation.  I don't mean to be a know it all on this but I served with US DOT for several years and still work as a consultant for attorneys in various states.

 

[Lafnbug]

Vagabound, not sure if any of this will help you or not, as a lot of what you're asking is subjective; "is it worth it, is it too much DOT hassle, insurance issues, etc". For me, not having to kick out $1000-1500/mo in mortgage or rent opens ALOT of possibilities for vehicles (up to and including commercial vehicles), as most people are going to have vehicle insurance on top of those bills anyway. So, an increase in insurance costs, even if they double, is still a drastic improvement in the financial bleeding by vehicle dwelling.

OK, so I have one of the aforementioned Uhaul 10' box vans. For me, it defines The Ultimate Compromise. Some of these do not translate to your situation, as I am 5'10".

Pros:
1. I can stand bolt upright, even with insulation installed. However, I cannot under the roll-up door; I have to slightly stoop. Many will ditch the roll-up door in favor of a wall with a conventional hinged door, which I will not, as I prefer the security, stealth, and porch aspect of the roll-up. YMMV.
2. Width works fine for me, sleeping across the width. I would prefer more room to stretch out, if I had my druthers.
3. My insurance actually DECREASED over my previous vehicle, much to my shock (~900/yr). In MD, you can register commercial vehicles as private use. Insurance was something I fretted over a great deal, and I would speak with several agents with your ideas, as you're in the Dreaded Grey Area. That means you're asking them questions that they are not used to dealing with, and they don't have canned subroutine answers for that, which puts them out of their Comfort Zone. My eventual agent put me on hold to clear the policy with her supervisor, per my request. State guidelines vary widely. When I asked 3 people I received 5 answers. I did not register as an RV, by choice.
4. It is ubiquitous and nondescript. There are hundreds of these things in my area, and they don't raise an eye. YMMV depending on your intentions and locale.
5. Parts are relatively cheap and readily available, with the exception of the Morgan box. I have repaired and replaced much on the box. Necessity is The Mother of Invention, and it is comparatively easy to do.
6. The box, being square, is easy to insulate and build out, and it lends itself to many layouts.
7. The drivability and MPG is on par with my regular work van. The GM vans have a pretty comfortable ride for a work vehicle.
8. The space provided by the box is quite sufficient for full timing. Well, once you embrace minimalism. I actually find it a bit overkill some days, but I plan on doing some travelling, and my area can get consecutive days of rain, so it will be nice to have a little wiggle room.
9. SOLAR. I have 900w. I'm thinking (hoping) that's enough
10. I can park in any parking space, except parking garages.
11. My GVW is 8990, well below the radar of the tyrannical MD DOT. Empty, with a 1/2 tank of gas and me in it, is 5930#. I could, with careful planning, carry 3000# of STUFF! I only plan on maybe half that, however. I cannot wait to discover what this figure will be.
12. This is a durable vehicle that can take a real beating. Mine has for sure, before my ownership. Even though I found more than a few surprises after going through it, I have been able to repair it to good status fairly cheaply and easily. Well, HDR might think it was easy.
13. Ground clearance is good.
14. It is already wired for trailering, and has a hitch.
15. Great rear view mirrors!
16. Has plenty of options for mounting tanks or hidden compartments under the floor, if you're so inclined.
17. I can, and have, parked just about anywhere without issue. From apartment complexes to commercial areas, it fits in well enough.
18. I could go on, but for the sake of brevity...

CONS:
1. I can't go through drive-thrus (or parking garages). The Horrors! It's a few inches too tall, so this should be moved to the PROS list, as it makes you Get Out And Walk
2. Yeah, the MPG could be better. I have not calculated it yet. I'm going to hazard a guess of 12MPG avg. BUT, I don't drive as much!
3. VENTILATION. I have been scratching my head over this for weeks. I probably have more options than anyone, but don't like any of them. Too much to type. Perhaps a thread on this issue.
4. Registration and insurance COULD be a problem, depending on your state of residence.
5. I have not yet driven through any windy conditions, but I can imagine...
6. The rear roll-up door is noisy underway. This is greatly pronounced when you install a pass-thru. Still thinking about that one.
7. The Morgan box is NOT built out of marine plywood, and the edges of the panels are not sealed in any meaningful way, leading to my question of "WHYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?" I have replaced a good bit of rotting wood, but I also live in possibly the worst atmospheric environment known to man; The East Coast. YMMV.
8. There's no way I'll make it to #18 in the cons list. This is a great option for many people, I love this thing!

 

[Vagabound]

Truly excellent!  This thread was on life support, and now it’s running the marathon!  Go, baby, go!

(Optimistic Paranoid)  It's easy enough to check.  Go to:

http://www.uhaul.com/TruckSales/  …

Lovely suggestion.  I’ll have to wait on that a bit unfortunately.  Turns out that U-Haul, along with Home Depot (and likely others) have recently freaked out about lurking Russian hackers and blocked all access to their websites from outside the U.S.   Pain in my …..  So, for a spell, I can’t reach that or any other helpful U-Haul link in this thread.  Grrrr.  But thanks.  Should be fixed (for me) when I get back on terra americana in a week or so.

(highdesertranger)  art that link you just posted that box truck has a GVWR of 14,500 lbs. that is what it's registered as. it also weighs 8,115 empty. that's unladen weight and has nothing to do with the registration. that is a commercial vehicle must be registered commercial and must stop at scales. unless you can get it registered as an RV.

Thanks for correcting that.  It can get confusing.  I ran into a guy in the truck business who didn't understand the difference.  I was a bit doubtful when Brother Art delivered the good news, but was all set to get really excited about 15’ trucks.  Alas, the search continues …

(arctic cat)  … I don't mean to be a know it all on this but I served with US DOT for several years and still work as a consultant for attorneys in various states.

Not at all.  We’re the lucky beneficiaries of your great and unique experience.  Thanks for sharing it.  You’re providing some serious meat, exactly the sort of stuff I was hoping for when I started the thread.  And any other info about how those rules actually apply in real life would be great.  Keep it up please!

(Lafnbug)  Vagabound, not sure if any of this will help you or not, as a lot of what you're asking is subjective …

Well, I’ve tried living the objective life.  Pretty lonely over there.  So, I've been forced to admit that subjective can be good, or at least, necessary.  As for your post, I’m speechless.  Not only did it help, it was tremendous.  You superbly demonstrated the crucial difference that interaction in forums can make compared to reading static web pages of info.  A person can learn from both, but there’s no real comparison when the interaction is done well.  Thanks tons for taking all of that time and being so thoughtful with your reply.  Lots of golden nuggets of practical experience in there.  I suspect that quite a few people beyond me will benefit.

Vagabound

 

[Lafnbug]

Vagabound, I received your message, thank you! Feel free to contact me with any questions.

If I can figure out how to post pictures from my phone, I will gladly post a build thread on my travails.

So, to expound on the items to look out for with the used Uhaul vans:

1. Although I THOUGHT I got lucky by finding a van titled in Arizona, mine obviously spent most of it's time in wet, and probably salty areas. The rear wheel wells looked a little rusty, but it turns out they are completely gone. Morgan used a fairly thin guage hot-rolled steel to make them, and in 10 years (mine is a 2006), they have had it. I had new ones made, they may go in this weekend. I am painting them with a few coats of bedliner before installation. Total cost, ~300. This is an area to check when shopping.
2. Another area to check is the structural rivets between the box and the cab. Someone hit the box hard enough to break 5 of these rivets, and I did not catch it. This is another area of concern, as most people that rent these things are not used to driving a vehicle with this height. It caused other problems as well, like LEAKS. Fortunately, it was all repairable.
3. Inspect the wood on the outside of the box near the rear wheel wells. Scrutinize the passenger side. This is where I found the rot, and it made it all the way above the wheel opening. Good luck sourcing replacement fiberglass coated 1/2" plywood! So, I used the remaining cut-out from my pass-thru door install to do the patch. Not hard to do, but best avoided.
4. These boxes are not totally waterproof, and if you park with the nose down in the rain, water can come in through the roll-up door. There is a lip on the floor that keeps this from being a major problem, but it can still happen, soooo....
5. Be sure to inspect the wood floor, front-to-back, side-to-side, and top to bottom for rot. Again, it is not treated wood. As many leaks as mine had, the floor survived intact.
6. Check the box roof for leaks, especially near the front and rear of the box, where impacts are likely to occur. The odd rusty bolt, fungus, soft wood, or other water stains/damage will clue you in.
7. Check the cab doors, and the rocker panels for rust. Once started, a major PITA.
8. The paint on these vans is infamous for the peeling paint on the roofs, hoods, and other areas. The only solution to this problem is to sand it down, removing ALL the greenish primer (the culprit), and then prime and re-paint. I had to do the roof of my cab, cost ~50.
9. Check the roof of the cab for dents, as it seems like a lot of people walk on top these things. Mine had minor dents. Sometimes you can push up on the headliner and pop them out.
10. If you find rust, be sure to have a look at the power steering fluid cooler, a tiny radiator, mounted low behind the front bumper. Mine wasn't leaking, but I replaced it as it was covered in rust scale. This system ties into the braking system on these vans, so it's no place to take a chance. Replacement part and new fluid is ~200.
11. These vans come with no spare tire, and no provision for carrying one under the van, so plan on including it in your floor plan. I am putting mine under the bed. Don't forget a good quality jack and jack stand. And a nice long lug wrench.
12. All the other standard items for checking apply. Take your time and really look it over. People that drive these things generally don't give a ****, so Caveat Emptor.
13. Uhaul does keep a maintenance record for these vans, but it seems hokey and is not very descriptive. I changed all the fluids and filters as a preventative maintenance. I DID NOT change the transmission fluid, and WILL NOT. I'm sure there are a gazillion internet threads on this topic, if you are inclined.
14. Lastly, I will mention the roll-up door. If you intend to keep it, check it's operation and look at all the rollers. These parts are available through Whiting if necessary. Mine was fine except the spring was wound way too tight, causing the door to fly up when released, and I had to hang on it to close it. It was fairly straightforward to adjust, directions are on the Whiting Door site.
15. Have a good look at the caulk between the cab and box on the exterior. Not a deal breaker if it needs to be redone, I did mine. If cracking, it can cause leaks (and eventual rust) into the cab, usually behind the seats.

If I can think of anything else relevant, I will post it.

 

[Vagabound]

...

So, to expound on the items to look out for with the used Uhaul vans:

...

If I can think of anything else relevant, I will post it.

Great inspection tips.  Anything else you feel like adding along the way would be great.  Thanks a bunch.  

Vagabound

 

[frater secessus]

9. SOLAR. I have 900w. I'm thinking (hoping) that's enough

Do you have a thread or pics somewhere showing/describing how you mounted the solar?

 

[PhilD1954]

2 great posts by lafnbug. would love to see some pics, of the build or finished product.

 

[Lafnbug]

Working on this project as we speak. I don't want to hijack Vagabound's thread. I will do a build thread; not sure when I'll get to do it.

A quick answer about the solar: I built my own roof rack to mount (6) 150w Renogy panels. It's done with aluminum angle, plate, and 60 bolts.

 

[Vagabound]

... I will do a build thread; not sure when I'll get to do it.
...

I'll be on the lookout for that one.  

Vagabound

 

[Headache]

Thanks Vagabound for bringing up your thread.  I've been busy to the point of exhaustion so short of things that are similar to what I'm doing right now I haven't read much.

And definitely thanks to arctic cat!  Sometimes it's really hard to get across to "4 wheelers" about the law we see on our end of it.

Now, to UHauls.  I have a 26 footer I'll be putting up for sale/trade for a small RV soon so I'll tell you what I know of them.

Why did you buy one, especially one that big?

At the time my dad was still alive and he had to use a mobility scooter.  By having a box that wide he could turn the scooter around inside as well as ride up the ramp. 
The aluminum floor is VERY strong, guys have bought these and hauled their off-road vehicles in them and built living quarters in the front.
Despite being beat to death by people that didn't know how to shift a manual 5 speed the 7.3 NA diesel is damn near bullet proof, all mechanical and runs on fuel you could burn in an old diesel heater.
The engine had been rebuilt in mine.
You can still buy some of the parts from the UHaul ebay store.
You won't go anywhere fast but most are so damn dependable it's pleasantly surprising.
I got 10mpg average on the highway with it overloaded.
Air ride rear, completely worth it.

Why are you going to sell it?

I don't need something so big now.  Between my dad dying, being asked to move out and insurance it's just not the direction I want to go in now nor do I have the time and tools.
I need structure.  While living a mobile life is an exciting adventure it will not be a long term thing.  I need a home base and a place to grow food.
Insurance.  It's a PITA and can be expensive for someone on a fixed income.

What were you going to do with it?

Live in it full time and taking my dad on trips around the state.

What issues did you have?

The first one was insurance.  Almost all insurance companies will NOT insure non-professional/ non RVIA conversions.
Those that will insure will do a liability policy, none of your contents will be covered and if they find out you are full timing they can and will cancel your policy.

The second was setting up a residence in SD where I was going to eventually move until my dad became sick.  The mail forwarding company registered it as a truck and not an RV then blamed me for it every step of the way even though I had done everything they had asked.  All I can get is a truck title now.  My heart just isn't in it anymore, I don't have the money and I will never recommend that company again.  Had they just admitted their mistake and not blame me for something else every time I proved their accusations against me false(I kept all the emails) I wouldn't be so negative about them now.  The last thing they told me was that my incorrect title wasn't stopping me from taking my dad on trips.  In other words they told me to drive an improperly insured vehicle while blaming me for them not filling out their paperwork for the state correctly.

What issues might I run into?

The actual GVW isn't reflected on the door tag but it's the one you have to go by.  Coming out of the factory these trucks are pretty stout but in rental van logic they ask that the GVW is downgraded on the door tags.  This is an attempt to deter people from cramming their whole house in the box without thinking about weight.  The insurance on them is also less.  The GVW of the 26' International is about 17k, much less than the just under 26k they were built to handle.  The empty weight of them is just over 12k.  Imagine my surprise after scaling it out at a little over 19k when loaded!

Moving vans are usually beat almost to death by the time they hit the sales list and UHaul doesn't rebuild motors and transmissions like they used to.  They usually try to get rid of them just before then.  Be prepared to rebuild either the engine or the transmission within the first few years or before 250k miles.  Tires, be prepared to buy tires.  YMMV of course.

The floor is cold as an iceberg in the winter.  The roof lets in a ton of heat in the summer and lets out a ton in the winter.  At the very bare minimum you'll need some kind of rug and to insulate the ceiling/roof.  Even 2" of insulation can reduce the summer temps near the ceiling by 10 degrees.

Bring someone with you if you're not mechanically inclined.  You can bet you'll have a grocery list of things that need repaired or replaced.  Your goal is to have a small list.  lol

Some states will NOT register an RV conversion if it was a commercial truck and if I remember correctly AZ might be one of them.

So is there anything good about converting a UHaul?

YES!  Absolutely.  You CAN get insurance with some companies but they can be hard to find(and it's best to find out before you buy one), it will be private use truck insurance and it won't cover full timing or contents.  I originally got my insurance through a third party referral service that set me up with Progressive RV.  Progressive itself does NOT insure conversions unless they are done in a coach style of bus(think Greyhound) but the 3rd party knew how to word it so I got liability.  It's a risk though as Progressive is notorious for taking your money and then cancelling weeks later even if you didn't hide anything.

It will be much more sturdy that a commercial built RV if done properly and if you're anything like me it isn't "yours" unless you've modified something.

You can build to suit, one of the best bennies of all.

It will be depreciated significantly by the time you buy it.  I personally dislike depreciation and unless I run into an incredible deal I always buy at least 10 years old.

Hope this helps!

 

[Vagabound]

Thanks Vagabound for bringing up your thread.  I've been busy to the point of exhaustion so short of things that are similar to what I'm doing right now I haven't read much....

Hope this helps!

I know what you mean about the exhaustion.  I've been trying to do all the packing / moving / travel work, and keep up with this reading / posting stuff, too.  It may not kill me, but my "house batteries" are certainly past 50% discharged. ;-)

Thanks for your great post.

Vagabound