Battle Born Change Out

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Oswegatchie

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We are thinking of buying  a couple of Battle Born lithium batteries for our future solar system. We pick our truck  camper up in Wenatchee Wa. and are heading toward the SW for winter. We want to take the deep cycle that is presently in the camper and exchange it out for either 1 or both of the Battle Borns directly and just charge off the alternator through the charging line from the truck to the camper. They have BMS built in and I called them and asked if we would be OK doing this. It seems to be OK. We will be putting in solar once we get to the SW. Does anyone have any experience doing a direct change out of deep cycle to lithium and if so, any negative issues?
 
In order to get max lifetime from those very expensive batts, you need to follow some basic rules.

One is do not charge at a voltage over 3.45Vpc, for 12V means 13.8V.

Make sure to stop charging before Amps falls to .02C, so 2A per 100 AH.

BMS does not help with this, you need a customizable charge source like Balmar MC-614 external VR.

They may last quite a few years without this, but well over a decade with. Which the mfg likely doesn't want.

Find out about the built-in BMS, does it prevent inbound charging below freezing temps? That kills LFP.

Also, a drop-in LFP can blow your alt diodes if it is the only load dump.

Better to keep a lead starter and use a customizable B2B DC-DC charger as the only charge source, upstream can be Alt, dumb shore charger, solar, gennie whatever.
 
Good advice John61CT. I have purchased Battle Born for my system and while I haven't seen it, it is getting wired and made ready there while I am here. We dumped a Sterling unit in. The Balmar is just as good, and less expensive. My system has dual alternators with one dedicated and custom wound for the Sterling to the BB units. Having the big lead buffer/s is a fine plan, but I went the other way and changed out one alternator. Expensive and no redundancy but it was the way my electicguru suggested, total separation from starter and house. His feeling is with cheap jump units that fit in glove box why tie the systems together and require big switches or relays. Designed for Marine engines the amperage outputs usually aren't high for Bat to Bat chargers. My Sterling was chosen because it will charge up to 400 amps. While I am only using a little more than half of that and staying well within the charge profile of the batteries, it is more of a system as a whole approach. Pay close attention when ordering and use the correct size wire. Here is the link for the Sterling 400 amp version they have others, lower amp and cheaper, and they are a lot easier, in my humble opinion, to program than the Balmar. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/AB12400.pdf?478

I agree 100 percent keep the units under the hood LEAD! House can be BB as charging below freezing is a death sentence for these batteries.
 
All sounds good except if your design leaves the drop-in internal-BMS LFP as the sole load dump from your alt. Even a cheap sacrificial lead will help buffer the spike if for some reason the BMS isolates while alt is outputting.

Otherwise potential Alt diodes blowout.
 
And actually this is also a concern off mains charging, maybe even solar, not necessarily the charge source, but other load devices can suffer from the huge voltage transient, caused by an open circuit load dump.

I would also advise a separate load buss from the charge buss, put the "sacrificial buffer" cheap lead batt on the charge side.

Which implies no "combi" inverter charger, keep them separate.
 
Those Battle Born batteries are expensive. I'd use a less expensive battery initially, if you are new to all of this. I ruined my first batteries in less than a year, there was a learning curve to living off of battery power. I'd only be buying $900 batteries after I really understood everything electrical in This Nomad life.


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$500 per 100AH gets G31 Firefly Oasis, many of the advantages of LFP especially standing up to PSOC, but less risky.

But for a first bank nothing beats FLA Duracell 6V pairs of golf cart batts, $180 gets you 200+AH, super robust.
 
I love the fireflys. I had bought a few and then found that Sterling had finally came through with the promised +200 amp charger. The Battle Born BMS is pretty darn robust. I emailed a few times and had a conversation. They are not cheap. But they are targeting a market not really done yet. The fireflys are awesome and if I was looking for inexpensive, and weight wasn't an issue I'd still have them. They never left the shop as hard to get in the North west coast. My guru is a boat guy.

I have an alternator dump protector I just wasn't going to add to the post as I doubt the OP will go that route. The Mechman alternator is very robust and overbuilt and 100% duty cycle unit. But yeah, stuff can happen so It has a Sterling protector added.
 
Blanch said:
Those Battle Born batteries are expensive. I'd use a less expensive battery initially, if you are new to all of this. I ruined my first batteries in less than a year, there was a learning curve to living off of battery power. I'd only be buying $900 batteries after I really understood everything electrical in This Nomad life.


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There is some merit to this approach, especially considering the cost of the batteries.  On the other hand if the OP is willing to look at what Battle Born requires for charging and put in the necessary infrastructure to meet the correct charging specs as per the company, he should be fine.  Where people run into problems is not taking the time to fully understand the charging requirements and making sure they have the correct equipment in place ahead of purchasing the batteries.
 
Hermes1 said:
There is some merit to this approach, especially considering the cost of the batteries.  On the other hand if the OP is willing to look at what Battle Born requires for charging and put in the necessary infrastructure to meet the correct charging specs as per the company, he should be fine.  Where people run into problems is not taking the time to fully understand the charging requirements and making sure they have the correct equipment in place ahead of purchasing the batteries.


Where I ran into problems is not knowing the amount of electricity my trailer uses when all seems to be turned off. I live in a TT and they are all different. I have a battery drain from equipment that is constantly on. I learned, but the RV companies can't and won't tell you the overnight load on your batteries. Every rig is different.


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Blanch said:
Where I ran into problems is not knowing the amount of electricity my trailer uses when all seems to be turned off. I live in a TT and they are all different. I have a battery drain from equipment that is constantly on. I learned, but the RV companies can't and won't tell you the overnight load on your batteries. Every rig is different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It' true there is some parasitic drain. Typically small amouts from circuit boards in various electrical components.  While small drains, never the less theses losses overtime can drain a battery left un checked.
 
We were told specifically from Battle Born not to ever use them as starters, but we were not planning to anyway. Seems like a pretty pricey starter! We just want to charge them in the RV from the plug going into the RV off the alternator. This is only temporarily until we get to AZ. Maybe 2 months. Battle Born told me that there should be no issues with the alternator as long as you have the starter battery charging off the alternator too. It takes any surges over the recommended 14.4v charging rate for the lithium.
 
That charging rate 14.4 V is way too high, you will get **lots** more longevity tuning it down to 13.8V.

Also no float would be ideal, just stop all charge sources until the bank gets depleted.

Lowering float to 13.2 is the next best, but for sure a compromise.
 
If you plan on just using the plug, it should be ok, that maxes out at 15 amps. My 12.8 volt lifepo4 never gets fully charged when it only see's 14.4 volts, and with the voltage drop it might be even less. Fully charge for a lifepo4 is 14.6 volts. 

Mine behaves like a lead acid when it's over 13 volts, only taking 4 amps or less even if 15 amps are available. 
One thing I recommend once you get everything hookup permanently is to get a small overvoltage relay (6 dollars) and you can use this to trigger a larger 40 amp(or bigger) relay to stop all charging no matter what once the battery is at the voltage you want charging to stop. This will prevent any float charging. I use it on mine. These relays are very reliable they can be left on 24/7 for months at a time and will trigger only when the voltage exceeds your limits. I wouldnt charge a lithium without one of these relays as a "deadman switch".
overvoltage relay.jpg
 

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When going with "how to do" it is far better to look at what the engineers recommend for the product rather than campfire chat. Part of the issue around this technology is differences in design, creating all sorts of; "I heard this," and "this works for me", "this is how to do it."

Like a lady you ask the lady what she likes. Battle born says (a fact, not fake news or opinion). "For your Bulk/Absorption stage, the ideal voltage is between 14.2v-14.6v. This range will allow the battery to fully charge any higher then this and the built in BMS will send the battery into a protect mode."

Chat about "well they want you to hurt the batteries, so you buy more. Blah blah is crap. Brand loyalty and identity is worth more than your $988.

The Sterling unit charges at 14.6 and floats at 14.2. Because the builders were, making it for various battery types within the Lipro market. It is also for the marine market with battery banks in the 1000's of amp/hr. Devices running 24x7 and drawing power. So while leaving it at the recommended  14.6 and 14.2 would probably be ok in a marine environment the remote control has a multitude of alarms and settings to totally customize the unit for the application without using a magnetic reed switch setting. The OP wasn't going this direction as the Sterling unit is the same price as the battery. So I didn't add to the thread.

What ever charger you get make sure it is a good quality unit, the Balmor is fine just set it or have it set correctly and those numbers are 14.2 to 14.6 and float at 13.6. Can you run in through your lead and then back to the house? Yes, using properly fused, isolated, and sized wires. The advantage of this tech is it will charge fast. Twice or three times as fast as lead chemistry. But you need to provide for it to do so. The no charger option should be talked about with BB and if they ok the design ask if they will replace the unit if it gets spiked with 15 volts. I have an email from them and you should too.
 
Scott7022 said:
When going with "how to do" it is far better to look at what the engineers recommend for the product rather than campfire chat. Part of the issue around this technology is differences in design, creating all sorts of; "I heard this," and "this works for me", "this is how to do it."

Like a lady you ask the lady what she likes. Battle born says (a fact, not fake news or opinion). "For your Bulk/Absorption stage, the ideal voltage is between 14.2v-14.6v. This range will allow the battery to fully charge any higher then this and the built in BMS will send the battery into a protect mode."

Chat about "well they want you to hurt the batteries, so you buy more. Blah blah is crap. Brand loyalty and identity is worth more than your $988.

The Sterling unit charges at 14.6 and floats at 14.2. Because the builders were, making it for various battery types within the Lipro market. It is also for the marine market with battery banks in the 1000's of amp/hr. Devices running 24x7 and drawing power. So while leaving it at the recommended  14.6 and 14.2 would probably be ok in a marine environment the remote control has a multitude of alarms and settings to totally customize the unit for the application without using a magnetic reed switch setting. The OP wasn't going this direction as the Sterling unit is the same price as the battery. So I didn't add to the thread.

What ever charger you get make sure it is a good quality unit, the Balmor is fine just set it or have it set correctly and those numbers are 14.2 to 14.6 and float at 13.6. Can you run in through your lead and then back to the house? Yes, using properly fused, isolated, and sized wires. The advantage of this tech is it will charge fast. Twice or three times as fast as lead chemistry. But you need to provide for it to do so. The no charger option should be talked about with BB and if they ok the design ask if they will replace the unit if it gets spiked with 15 volts. I have an email from them and you should too.
BB told me charge at 14.4, float at 13.6. Where does the Balmor unit go? Does it run off the alternator, off the starter battery, or just plug in to 12v? If we have the  Lithium batteries in the rv, can the Balmor go in there or should we bring the batteries into the truck cab and charge them there?
 
Oswegatchie,

It doesn't matter if you are going to use the stock trailer/camper pin on the rig. But this set up doesn't really get the most out of your investment and if you haven't bought the BB already you might want to go the Fire Fly carbon foam route.

Let me explain these batteries love power. Power is current, or amperage, not voltage. The more current they see the faster they recharge. This is the primary advantage along with weight, and being able to draw down to 80% state of charge. That is draw out 80 percent and not fully recharge. Not fully refilling Lead chemistry battery is what kills them as fast as drawing them below 50%.

BB said 14.4 to provide a margin of error I am assuming. I hesitate to wade in with; this will work or that will work because of so many unknown factors. In an old van adding 1 gauge cable connections to your alternator and battery and upgrading your ground. Fusing and adding an ignition controlled isolator off the positive lead on your lead engine battery and running 2 gauge cable again fused correctly would be fine. No voltage regulation would be needed, you could add an alternator dump protector, (a unit that diverts the current if the alternator fails and sends a high voltage spike Usually because of a loose connection) and let the BB BMS handle the rest. But even this in a simple OLD VAN is not ideal.
With new vehicles you get regenerative braking voltage spikes and the lead engine sponge won't soak it.
With a high tech system you have to take a systematic approach.

I don't want to be discouraging. I myself went back and forth for over two years, and had the advantage of having an awesome boat electrical engineer as a good friend who installed this stuff weekly on boats with owners that just wrote the check. My problem is I need lots of power and have zero weight room. I can't get 500 useable amp/hours any other way. I had to go with Lithiums or cheat and put my power cube in the back seat of the 2500 Dodge quad cab and weigh the unit and then add the power cube. Kinda like how people go thru scales without water and then...Not ideal right. So out came the checkbook.

I am not an expert on the Balmor systems past that I know people use it. I don't want to advise you on something I am not an expert at. I use Sterling. They are a standard in the yacht industry. I would use this http://www.sterling-power-usa.com/library/bbw12120manual.pdf. Get a meter and stick it on the positive terminal battery cable. Turn your headlights on for ten minutes or pull your starting battery down a bit. With the vehicle cold and the meter on the big cable start and read the amperage and sip a beer. You want to see the higest amp rating your alternator is putting out. Get a Sterling unit above that number. Then, using the wire guide found on the link I posted come off your positive post to a circuit breaker rated at 60 120 0r 180 (depending on the Sterling unit you bought) I like the JL units here https://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_i4_circuit-breakers.html They also sell handy battery teminal posts and saves you making terminals.
Then install the Sterling unit following the directions in the PDF. It is under the hood water proof. Run the cable back to the battery, again sized based on the PDF and add another circuit breaker, same size, as close to the house battery as you can. If you are pulling a trailer and the batteries are in the trailer it is going to be a thick cable. I am not sure what you have so hard to answer. If you are pulling a trailer a cheaper better way is a little honda genie and a ctek http://smartercharger.com/battery-chargers/#CTEK LITHIUM US. Avoid all the fuss and muss of engine charging as a good solar array will charge just fine. The genie can be a whisper quiet smallest one you can find.

That is how it could be done. To do it is up to you. If you get a little carbon foam Firefly for a house battery as a stop gap fix for now and then when you want to take the systematic approach the Firefly becomes your engine battery and you install the solar, house system with the Battle Born then and based on the solar set up decide then if you need to add the expense of adding alternator charging to the system.

I am sorry this is long, and not as clear as it could be. I have to make assumptions and assumptions make an ass out of U and Me, or so the saying goes. Not that either of us are that just saying it is difficult. I hope you find this helpful. But the route you are going is not a simple easy brezzy cover squirrl option. It is a hell of a lot easier than it was years ago and Battle Born are great. One other option is to go see them and see if they have options and installers local in Nevada. They are trying to build a rep and are running around the country with a rig handing out discounts if you see the rig. Go plead your case and you might be surprised.
 
jonyjoe303 said:
If you plan on just using the plug, it should be ok, that maxes out at 15 amps.
Putting a low-rated connection in a circuit with much higher current is obviousy very dangerous.

And why would you want to slow current down anyway? Whole point of LFP is very high CAR to minimize charging run times!

jonyjoe303 said:
Fully charge for a lifepo4 is 14.6 volts. 
For longevity, fully charged is defined by the user, and 3.45Vpc or 13.8V for 12V is the highest you should go in normal operations.

"Really Full", as in defining 100% for your SoC monitor, is when current acceptance has dropped to .02C, or 2A per 100AH.

But unless you have very precise and reliable gear controlling the charge source, better to just stop when the target voltage is reached.

Remember the bank prefers to **not** get full, there is no benefit to pushing SoC up to the shoulders, only reducing batt life cycles.


jonyjoe303 said:
My 12.8 volt lifepo4 never gets fully charged when it only see's 14.4 volts, and with the voltage drop it might be even less.
Then something is very wrong with your setup. 13.8V is more than enough to get to a reasonable definition of full. And you don't want to get to the theoretical damaging "too full" anyway.

jonyjoe303 said:
Mine behaves like a lead acid when it's over 13 volts, only taking 4 amps or less even if 15 amps are available. 
That is not behaving like lead, inherent to LFP as well.

Your cutoff can go as low as .01C (1A per 100AH bank size) as long as volts are at 13.8 or lower.

But best to stop at .02C.

jonyjoe303 said:
One thing I recommend once you get everything hookup permanently is to get a small overvoltage relay (6 dollars) and you can use this to trigger a larger 40 amp(or bigger) relay to stop all charging no matter what once the battery is at the voltage you want charging to stop. This will prevent any float charging. I use it on mine. These relays are very reliable they can be left on 24/7 for months at a time and will trigger only when the voltage exceeds your limits. I wouldnt charge a lithium without one of these relays as a "deadman switch".
Good idea, as long as

it is controlling the correct switch on the charge source, or the resulting spikes of just interrupting high current flow will damage devices on the upstream circuit.

the voltage can be accurately customized, in my case to 13.8V
 
We have decided to wait until we get all of the components together and an install plan in place before hooking up any of the batteries. We will just get by with the present deep cell that is in their and charge off the truck as we head west to get the camper in Washington and south to Arizona. It will teach us to conserve right away.
 

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