Auto switch from shoreline to battery system...

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highdesertranger said:
you never need to turn the solar off.  it can stay plugged in 24/7.  highdesertranger

Right. I understand. I maybe used the wrong phraseology...

I should have said to remove the panel output from the charging side, so that the battery charger would sense the correct condition for a proper charge.
And not read the panels output as battery condition.
 
CONVERTERS: Here is the other place that the RV industry has really let us down. Nearly all basic RV’s, whether they are trailers, fifth wheels or motor homes are equipped with something called a converter or “charger”.  This mislabeled item should be called a battery maintainer, because it is designed to be plugged into shore power in an RV park 24 hours a day, which is really what the RV industry wants us to do.  Converters are set to maintain the batteries at the “float” voltage, about 13.5 volts, and supply a trickle charge (2-3 amps, or 25-35 watts) to keep the batteries full, while not over charging them and boiling them dry.  Because of the length and size of the wiring in most rigs, the converter typically supplies less than 13 volts to the battery.   Some newer three stage converters will put out over 14 volts, but that is still too low.  You cannot successfully charge batteries with a converter, because you never get the batteries up to the required 14.4 volts and hold them there long enough.  Don’t pay any attention to the amp rating of the converter and don’t believe that it is a good charger just because it is labeled three stage.  DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY UPGRADING TO A THREE STAGE CONVERTER, THINKING IT WILL BE ANY BETTER.  It will put the rated amps out for a very short time after you have run the batteries down or have just plugged in and it will drop to float the second it reaches whatever set point they used, then it will taper the amps off to a trickle at about 13 volts, long before the batteries are full.  Plus, if you have any solar power, the voltage it puts out will be sensed by the converter and cause it to go into trickle charge mode even sooner.  I installed a new 60 amp Intellipower converter in a friend’s rig & when we started the generator I measured only 4 amps output at 13.6 volts right away.  It dropped from bulk charge to float in seconds, and those batteries were not full.  Does that sound like a battery charger to you?  Their own spec sheet says that it drops to float when the batteries are at 90% and in my experience this is very optimistic.  My solar system actually puts more amps (3.5 amps) into my batteries on a cloudy day than your average converter does, and I can’t keep my batteries charged when it is cloudy, even with that trickle charge working all day.  Therefore, you can’t expect your converter to charge them, either.  You are actually lucky to ever get your batteries over 80% full with a converter that is plugged in for several days unless the rig is stored and no electricity is being used.  The single battery supplied on most small rigs holds about 90 amp hours.  That is about 30 hours of charging from the converter, but at the same time you are still running loads and reducing the power actually going to the batteries, so we are talking days, not hours.  The truth is that it takes even longer because batteries are not 100% efficient, especially when they get closer to full.  In 2007 I repaired the solar system on a friend’s motor home that had been plugged in for a full month at a park and then driven to our camp for a half hour, with the engine alternator charging the batteries.  He arrived with his house batteries at 12.5 volts and the hydrometer showing them about 75% charged.  This is typical of rigs that are kept in RV parks & occasionally taken out to boondock.  They never have fully charged batteries.  Converters need to be plugged in 24 hours a day to work, not run for an hour or two with a generator.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/


so what you're saying is that measured and observed output was wrong?
 
1. Plug into shore for say 48 hours a week.

2. park in many hours of bright sunlight per week with lots of thin panels you spread out around the van

3. Radically conserve usage

4. Regularly run a quiet gennie and/or long road trips w/ high-end alt setup

Likely some combination of the above that works best for you.

oh, or Plan B accept you're rarely full

B1 use generic GCs nothing pricey and replace them much more frequently than if you were able to do 1-4

or (maybe)

B2 spend $500 on Firefly Oasis, apparently is fine with PSOC abuse long as you properly recovery-charge once in a while to get AH back

or (for $ure)

B3 spend lots more on LFP, which prefers PSOC, in fact damaged charging to true 100% or by storing them full, they just don't care if you cycle between 30% and 70% forever. Can even be cheaper long term.
 
galladanb said:
Almost There - Thank You for sharing. Would it be asking too much for some images for clarity?
Also if I understand what your saying, you have outlets that are only engergized when on Shore power, and a couple that come off of the inverter.
And when you say inlets in the bumper, do you mean a place for the shore line and the suitcase panels?

IS that right?
I suppose I was worried that the inverter would be fryed when the shore line is plugged in...
But I guess the way you have it wired the inverter outlets are not connected to the shore line ones? Right?

Here's a picture of my electrical room right after John and I finished working on it...sorry, not all the wires are dressed the way I would normally have them... :rolleyes:

IMG_2787.JPG

The solar controller was added later and is in the small top cabinet above the 'electrical room' - I ran out of space for it... :D

To answer your questions - yes, I have two duplex outlets that are only energized when the van is hooked up to either the generator or shore power. There are another 2 duplex outlets that are only powered by the inverter which is activated by a switch so it's only on when needed.

And you're correct, the two systems are completely separate and should be...the inverter obtains it's power from the batteries, not from shore power.

I  used a pair of Marinco Inlet Charger ports,
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ACTUANT-ELECTRICAL-MARINCO-On-Board-Charger-Inlet/29240623

I installed them both on the rear bumper next to the trailer wiring outlet. It's a convenient place for them to be and I didn't have to drill big holes in the body of the van. They're almost unnoticeable on the black bumper...I'll take pics tomorrow of the set up of them.
 

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bardo said:
can you prove it? Because I dont know of a charger or solar controller that would see 13v+ at the battery and not go into float.

Any decent solar controller has a user settable float point. I wouldn't consider one if it didn't. Most AGMs want 14.8 volt as an absorption voltage.
 
bardo said:
so what you're saying is that measured and observed output was wrong?


With a bit of (free) config it can be a non-issue.  Unsynchronized charging is fine and happens even in parallel charging setups with identical configs.

If one wants the converter to be dominant (because of more current available on shore power) make the converter's Vabs a fraction higher than that of the solar charge controller's Vabs.  Both chargers would contribute in Bulk until reaching the lower Vabs (solar), and the converter holds its higher Vabs for the rest of that stage.  They could both be set to the same Vfloat and jockey it out between them. Would make no difference because either source can meet the needs of Float.
 
galladanb said:
So how can we ever get a FULL charge?
Don't listen to advice from ancient times.

Buy quality equipment and it won't be any problem at all. 

The Blue Sky 3000i is $300 and will let you set the absorption voltage at 14.8 and let you set how many hours it holds it there. Call your battery manufacturer and ask them for those numbers. Set them. Watch the years roll by on a happy battery.

A friend and I set his up, the manufacturer recommended 14.8 for 3 hours. It gets exactly that virtually every day unless there is no sun. 

If it's not getting there regularly, buy more panels, they are cheap.
 
absorption voltage at 14.8? I really hope you mean 13.8....and on agm's
 
For flooded lead batteries, my 120 volt charger starts output max amps. It brings the voltage up to maintain those amps. When the voltage holds at set point (14.8v), the charger switches to hold at that voltage and the amps gradually decline until set point % amps, then switches to maintain battery. Mine and many other systems keep the solar connected at the same time with no interference to any charging of the batteries. I guess the electrons are smarter than I can explain. For agm I set the voltage at 14.4 to 14.6.
 
I think i get it, Im confusing terminology
 
bardo said:
absorption voltage at 14.8? I really hope you mean 13.8....and on agm's
Interstate has models for which it recommends 15.5V
 
Lease do not lump all agms into the same voltage setpoints.

I could pose examples of different manufacturer recommendations,

But in general Absorption voltgae can be anywhere from 14.2 to 14.9v, at the standard 77f battery temperature

Float voltage can be anywhere from 13.2 to 13.8v, depending on manufacturer.

INterstate has Never manufactured a battery, they are a battery marketer using whomever can make the battery for the most profit.

Anybody using Interstate batteries would be wise to figure out who made the battery for them, Whether USbattery, JOhnson controls, possibly some outfits in Saudi arabia, Portugal, Mexico, and possibly even in the US. Most Interestate batteries are for starting but they do have marine batteries and some true deep cycle golf carts and 12v scrubber batteries too, and I believe the GC-2 and GC15s are currently made by USbattery.

Not sure whom makes the marine batteries for them, and No, marine batteries are not a deep cycle battery, but of course they can be deeply cycled. For that matter so can a starting battery, it just was not designed for that duty.

Ideal absorption voltage is always dependent on battery temperature, and battery temperature is rarely the same as ambient temperature, especially when charging at a higher amperage rate, and if hot ambient temps exist the battery really seems to warm up rapidly when recharging at a higher rate.

A Thermocuople on my battery casing kind of blew my mind. My assumptions were way off as to how much heating would occur.

If one needs to state an AGM voltage, then state that brandX calls for this and that, but do not lump them all together and say that is too high or that is too low. And be careful of repeating Internet folklore on these topics.

It varies and the Battery manufacturers have changed their recommendations in the last 10 years, and the recommendations are mostly what they put out to minimize the possibility of warranty returns, and that requires second guessing how the end user will treat the battery.

Maximum profit mentality.

Also do not believe that a venting AGM is a soon to be dead AGM. They are remarkable resilient to overcharge, way more so than chronic undercharging in deep cycle duty.
The danger lies in hot ambient temperatures and high amp charge rates into a depleted battery.

Like a inadvertently depleted AGM in an engine compartment, jumpstarted and driven through phoenix in summertime. That battery could easily exceed 120F, and really at 120F, one should stop charging entirely, even if the battery is far from fully charged.

Hot Sulfuric acid is extra corrosive to the lead plates.
 
akrvbob said:
 The Blue Sky 3000i is $300 and will let you set the absorption voltage at 14.8 and let you set how many hours it holds it there. Call your battery manufacturer and ask them for those numbers. Set them. Watch the years roll by on a happy battery.

A friend and I set his up, the manufacturer recommended 14.8 for 3 hours. It gets exactly that virtually every day unless there is no sun. 

I'll say it again, call your battery manufacturer and ask them!
 
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