Advice please: How old and how many miles on van is "unreliable"?

Thoreau · Jul 19, 2013

A little background: Today I went to see a  2001 Ford 15 passenger 350 (extended) van, which looked good outside and inside...but it had 206K on the odometer. The guy was ready to sell it to me for $3,500. I was excited. But I spoke with my "practical" uncle, and he said that getting a high mileage vehicle like that is asking for trouble, and that I will have too much stress by things going wrong and breaking down...and expensive repairs in middle of nowhere, and so on. I respect his advice. He's usually right. But he's the furthest thing from a vandweller. He's an ex-commander of a police unit, and very oriented to security and establishment. I argued that if I got a newer van with fewer miles it would be very much more expensive up-front, and that would give me financial stress. I'm not mechanically gifted, so I would not be able to repair most things that would go wrong with a van (at least as of now... of course, I can learn with time). So, those of you with experience buying old vans (10 years or older), and vans with 100K miles or more...what has been your experience with breakdowns and mechanical problems...and any possible "catastrophes" or excessive stress these have caused you? If you had to do it again, would you buy a newer van? An older van? And, again, what would you advise a non-mechanic like me? Thanks.

dfunkt · Jul 19, 2013

I just asked the same thing recently in this thread: <a href="/post/newer-vans-6422203" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://vanlivingforum.com/post/newer-vans-6422203</a> and I think it comes down to your mechanical ability, your budget, and your luck. I am pretty convinced that I should buy something with less mileage and hope for the best.  Here is a video from a series made by a young couple which illustrates my worst nightmare. <a href="" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> I</a> can't imagine the horror and frustration I'd feel being broken down in Podunk, Nowhere with some mechanic telling me it'll cost my firstborn and all my savings to get the van which I loaded with thousands of dollars in goodies back in good running condition.

fantym1 · Jul 19, 2013

Does the van have maintenance records (receipts for service/repairs)?

Gas or diesel? Diesel engine generally last longer. That mileage on a well maintained diesel is barely middle-aged. Generally, fleet vehicles are disposed of because something major mechanical is statistically likely soon & usually whatever last maintenance (or last couple) was due, wasn't (ie 150k mi tranny service wasn't done d/t pending disposal)

Will you have the funds available to deal with a major mechanical event if you buy it? Without actual maintenance records, assume nothing. With that mileage, think overhaul/rebuild/replace engine AND transmission.

Personally, I'd get the carfax report AND have a GOOD mechanic check the vehicle thoroughly b4 buying.

Guest · Jul 19, 2013

I haven't yet bought an older van so I don't speak from experience.... but say you did buy a newer one with less mileage... EVENTUALLY you will be putting mileage on it of course and so you will still have to deal with all the problems associated with owning an older high mileage vehicle.  It's just a matter of now or later really, we all are eventually going to spend time at the auto shop. Ask the mechanics what are the most likely things to fail in older vehicles; transmission? engine? brakes? electrical system? alternator?  Calculate the costs to fix those issues and add that to the cost of your older van.  I am also considering learning how to fix some mechanical issues myself, it could become a new hobby <img src="/images/boards/smilies/cool.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img"> - lots of guys happily tinker on their vehicles with a cool brewski in hand. Why not me? If your van is deeply discounted right up front it still might make sense to get it and just deal one at a time with the issues that WILL occur in the future. I am also currently shopping for a van and have looked over a few ford E-series... I've seen a lot of them on the market with more than 300,000 miles on them! So that is encouraging at least, I don't want to buy those but I'm glad to see they made it that far. Things that really bother me so far are doors that won't shut properly (allowing me to see OUTSIDE SKY along the supposed seals?!? - great gotta buy a new door now!), doors that won't even OPEN (uh, I kinda planned to USE that door! so no thanks), locks that won't lock properly, excessive rust, other things that don't work right off the bat so I know I gotta replace it (like the stereo... can't live without a STEREO!) So basically I'm thinking if you really LIKE that van (which is great! that takes a lot of searching!) take it to see a good mechanic (before you buy it) that you trust, have him look it over good and let you know the costs of what would be involved to keep it running well, check the price of kelley blue book so you know if you are really getting a deal or not. and of course.....   heed the advise of others who will share their actual experiences.  I'm waiting to hear from them too <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"> Good luck!  Hope you get a van SOON!

user 423 · Jul 19, 2013

If it was used as a people mover and most of the mileage was highway, then the high mileage wouldn't be as bad as if it was used mostly in-town with lots of stop and go driving. That's just in general and you can never know for sure. Research with Google each year and model (and engine) for chronic problems. Some Ford engines with aluminum heads have been plagued by some expensive defects involving sparkplugs through the years. Also, become familiar with using the NADA used price guides: http://www.nadaguides.com This is a starting point for pricing a used vehicle but there can be a lot of variation in options and condition. You'll need to know what options the van has and then decide that you need those options and are willing to pay extra for them (even on a used vehicle). An '01 E350 with 206k on it that is considered a "clean trade-in" should be priced at about $3625 but $1075 is deducted for the high mileage. If it has the Chateau package, a V10 engine and the tow package, that adds $675 so then it's 'suggested' used price is $3225.  So $3500 from an individual is not such a great price. The NADA for retail prices will always be higher because dealers have more overhead and also inflate prices so they can 'give' you more for your old crappy trade-in so you think you're getting a good deal. It's a crap shoot anyway you go really but for a non-mechanical person the most important thing is to pay for an inspection. Any used van will cost you one way or another unless you're lucky.

Zil · Jul 19, 2013

3500 sounds like a lot for a high millage 2001 ford e350. New tires? runs and drives well? Your mechanic checked ok? Check Craigslist to get an idea of asking prices in your area.

yesican · Jul 19, 2013

Things wear out the more an engine turns and twists and runs over bumps, etc.  I bought an 8 year old Saturn once that had 180 thousand miles and it went another 60 thousand more miles over another 5 years and was just starting to burn oil when I sold it.  Gas engines are not built as tough as diesels, and if no record of regular maintenance, doubt its worth buying.  It is getting to the mileage where everything has worn in the engine and running gear.  If you're not mechanically inclined, keep looking!

Thoreau · Jul 19, 2013

Thank you for the feedback so far, Kayaker, Fantym1, Avidcamper, Slowday, Zil, and Yesican. And yeah, the video shows the exact "nightmare" scenario of buying an old vehicle and depending on it in far-away places...even when everything seemed to have been lining up just right in the transition to mobile living. (Other details: The van is a gas, not diesel. It doesn't have tow package, but seller says he can install a hitch he has. Tires are relatively good. Van is white, unusually clean and "sharp," inside and outside, with tinted windows all around. Seller says this was the backup vehicle for a hotel shuttle service to and from airport, and that's why it wasn't used recently. But to me, being used as a hotel shuttle means it's seen a lot of local mileage...because the hotel is pretty close to the airport.) I've checked the Carfax on the van, and two things caught my attention: First, it had an accident, but that was about ten years ago and 100K miles ago, so that doesn't seem to have created a problem for the van. The second thing was more troubling: It had mileage registed at over 206K about four years ago, and 209K three years ago, yet now the odometer reads a little over 206K. The seller claims it was mechanic input error (and there never was 209K on the vehicle). But even if that's true, it means the van sat unused for a few years...which I understand is usually a bad thing for a vehicle. Also, the seller claims he was told that the engine was replaced 60K miles ago...but the Carfax does not show any record of that. But extended vans have been very uncommon locally in the past couple of months...and expensive when you find them. So it was tempting to jump on this one.

Van-Tramp · Jul 19, 2013

If a van (or any car) was taken care of properly, 100,000+ miles is nothing. I've had cars with 250,000 miles and up (actually, it is still going today in my nephew's hands). Ask for the records or receipts, if there are none, then there are always other vans. You can ask to have it checked by a repair tech first. Anyone with faith in the vehicle will allow that. I'd be more afraid of a vehicle that has "low mileage". The worst thing you can do to any car, is let it sit for long periods.

Willy · Jul 19, 2013

That vid kinda illustrates why I like older commercial vehicles. My '56 Grumman step van ran like a top and it probably had, like, a million miles on it. I truly regret selling that puppy, but hindsight is 20/20 an' all ya see is an ass.   Problem with the newer stuff is, while it's running, it's running exceptionally well.. till something breaks down and then it's a monetary nightmare. Older stuff is easier to fix/replace by oneself, with TONS of cheap parts, or have a shade-tree mechanic do so on the cheap. ..Willy.

user 423 · Jul 19, 2013

If it was an airport shuttle that probably means on top of the 206K it sat around idling for many hours which isn't so great and adds engine wear. Police cars are usually sold with a little over 100K on them but they run virtually 24/7 so the engines have much more use on them. Ask the guy how long he's owned it and if the title is in his name. This can be a touchy question but if he's vague about it, I'd look elsewhere. It sounds like he might be a 'curbstoner' which is someone who flips vehicles; buying them at auctions and then trying to sell them at a profit without really driving it and titling it in their name. Check Craig's or just Google and see if his phone number comes up with other vehicle sales. That's a sure tipoff. Don't fall for the 'newer engine' come-on unless he can provide some proof.

Thoreau · Jul 19, 2013

Thank you Van-Tramp, Willy, and Slowday for your responses. I will, indeed, get a pre-purchase inspection on any vehicle I'd buy...and for this vehicle there aren't records or receipts for the maintenance or repairs...and I'll also keep in mind the likelihood of long idling hours for airport shuttle vehicles...and keep in mind the tips for how to try to spot a vehicle flipper. In this case, I think the seller said it had an "open" title, and he did say that a "friend" just sold it to him and that he had been planning to use it to go camping...so he may indeed not have put the title in his name, and I know he hasn't had it long. Thanks again.

Curtis · Jul 19, 2013

A lot of great comments. Many times mileage may not make that much difference if a person was responsible for upkeep on the vehicle Also as Bob suggests always have a mechanic check it out before buying. A mechanic can tell on vehicles 1996 to present a lot more about their wear than in the past. Also don't pass up what some folks call intuition or how does your heart feel about it? No matter what year of vehicle we buy, whither new or old at some point in it's life we may have to repair it or purchase another one.

idn88 · Jul 21, 2013

Generically I certainly wouldn't be afraid of something with 200K on it.  However the price on that 12 year old van seems a little much.  At that price you would like to see some service records, etc. A lot has to do with how much you plan to drive it, and how inconvenient a break down would be.  Older vehicles will need maintenance and repairs, however they most likely will be cheaper in the long run, even if you have to take everything to the shop.  So, if your planning to stay generally in one area and not be driving too much, then older may be better.  If your not mechanically inclined and want to go cross country, fairly new might be a better choice.  Of course you never indicated your actual budget?

Thoreau · Jul 21, 2013

Thanks Curtis and idn88 for your responses. Yes, I'll keep in mind the better diagnostic abilities mechanics have with vehicles '96 and on, and the distinction between whether I'm planning to drive a lot or more or less live out of it while staying fairly local. (As to gut feeling and intuition, I'm not confident that I can't be swindled on a car deal, so even if I feel comfortable about a deal I don't rely on that...but if my gut is saying "No!" then I would walk away.) On the budget issue, I can afford to buy a somewhat newer van, but that would use up a high percentage of my savings, and I'm reluctant to do that. I saw a 2011 Chevy cargo extended van with 70K miles on it. They wanted 18,000 for it. I'm not close enough to Social Security age to where I could retire, but I need some time off to regain my health, physical and emotional, so I'm trying to reserve as much of my savings as possible for living expenses for a year or more.

stude53 · Jul 21, 2013

Thoreau, a suggestion ... No decision you make now has to be permanent. Choose something at lower cost (get the mechanical stuff checked out, this is most important) and reserve as much of your savings as possible. Later, at your leisure, you can shop for what you want for a more permanent rolling home, and sell the one you buy now. Bob

Zil · Jul 21, 2013

At that price I want new tires, not relatively good. Tires on a 350 are very much more expensive than you plan. Vehicle over 10 years, over 150000 miles, maybe a high of $2000.

GrayWhale · Jul 21, 2013

Pay to have a shop check the van. Like $50-80.

idn88 · Jul 23, 2013

If your goal is to relax a little and take care of yourself I would definitely go for older.  If you don't have a specific place to be at a specific time, that would be your best deal.  If you change your mind in 6 months its easy enough to sell or trade up. Having said that, I would look for the best maintained vehicle I could find for something like around 5K.  Definitely have it checked out, and I am definitely a fan of new enough to have ODBCII, especially for someone generally not an expert in vehicle repair.

wagoneer · Jul 24, 2013

E350 is a heavy duty truck I paid 3500 for a 2001 7.3 diesel extended bubble top the previous owner said he had problems starting it It was a fleet maintained bus. His batteries were generic unmatched POS the oil he was using was the cheapest he could find. I did the opposite best batteries best oil best tires 1000 dollars later 2 long road trips and running around town not a hitch It has 205.000 miles on the clock I am a happy camper.