Adding an Auxiliary Battery

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
If you want to have both charging from the engine AND solar, you need to make sure that the two systems play nicely together.

If I understood Stern's post correctly, he's saying that the Blue Sea ACRs get fooled by the voltage coming off the solar panels and don't disconnect the house from the engine batteries when you're just sitting there parked in the sun.  Which means that part of your solar output tries to go to the engine battery, which really doesn't need it, instead of going into the house batteries, which DO.  Plus, possibly, you may be running the risk of overcharging the engine battery, which can be detrimental to it.

As far as the other Sure Fire goes, systems like that will only do what the engineer who programmed them wants them to do.  I think Stern wants a system that does what HE wants it to do, not what some engineer wants it to do.

Stern, if I'm getting any of this wrong and putting words in your mouth, I apologize.

Regards
John
 
bgq007 said:
John,

Thanks! My plan was actually to try and find reasonably priced AGM's. My question for you, what do I gain (or lose) by going with 2 6v vs 1 12v? In my original post, I mentioned this choice, but that is only because during my reading I found many people going with 2 6v. I don't understand the "benefit" of doing this. 

As far as a budget goes... I am thinking around $1000 max for the batteries, "isolator"/kit, and inverter (and wiring). If I can squeeze a solar panel and regulator (I think that is what they are called) then GREAT!

Billy

There are basically three kinds of FLA batteries.

Engine starting batteries which need to put out a LOT of amps to the starter, and do this by cramming a lot of thin lead plates into the space, in order to maximize the square inches of lead exposed to acid.

Marine/RV batteries, which need to start a boat motor AND be able to power the anchor lights and stuff all night long and still start the motor the next day.  They do this by having thicker plates than the true starting batteries.  They are kind of a hybrid - half way between a starting battery and a true deep cycle battery.

True Deep cycle batteries, like are used in golf carts and industrial equipment.  These have MUCH thicker lead plates than either the starting or boat batteries.

As far as the 12 volt vs pair of 6 volt batteries thing goes, it's hard to fit the really thick deep cycle plates into the kind of battery cases used for 12 volts - group 24, group 27, etc.  They may CALL them "deep cycle", but they most likely are really Marine/RV batteries.

If you discharged a starting battery down to 50% and then recharged it, (called a cycle) you could do that maybe 50 times before you killed it.  Do the same thing with a Marine/RV battery, and it would be good for 400 to 500 cycles.
A true deep cycle will give you several thousand such cycles.

AGMs can be a little different.  Google Lifeline Batteries (one of the best - and most expensive - AGMs) and download their free user's manual PDF.  Toward the back, there will be a chart showing percent of discharge vs number of expected cycles.  Very Interesting!

The kicker with AGMs is that it's harder to charge them in such a way that keeps them happy, unless you have equipment that lets you program in the higher voltages they want compared to FLA batteries.

Hope that's all clear.

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
There are basically three kinds of FLA batteries.

...

Hope that's all clear.

Regards
John

John,

So it sounds like you are saying that the best option would probably be a lead type battery (less finicky when being charged) but then I get to the maintenance aspect and if I am being honest, I am not that good with that stuff (like making myself do it). So, is there a sealed lead type system that won't require maintenance but not be picky when charging?

Billy 

PS - I will check out the LifeLine information
 
bgq007 said:
John,

So it sounds like you are saying that the best option would probably be a lead type battery (less finicky when being charged) but then I get to the maintenance aspect and if I am being honest, I am not that good with that stuff (like making myself do it). So, is there a sealed lead type system that won't require maintenance but not be picky when charging?

Billy 

PS - I will check out the LifeLine information

AGM is pretty much it.  Best advice I can offer you is to make sure that whatever charge controller you pick for your system either has an AGM setting, or a way to manually set the voltage so you can kick it up to the higher voltage AGMs want.

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
AGM is pretty much it.  Best advice I can offer you is to make sure that whatever charge controller you pick for your system either has an AGM setting, or a way to manually set the voltage so you can kick it up to the higher voltage AGMs want.

Regards
John

Just checking... The Charge Controller we are talking about here is in regard to the Solar system correct? Do you have any recommendations? I am not really at a point to be thinking of this, but good to get an idea. The other thing that I forgot about in my initial post was the ability to charge from a house as well. Basically, 3 ways to charge: Alternator, Solar, and Shore (I think that might be the correct term.... basically being able to plug into an AC power source). 

Billy

PS - Again also brings me back to ensuring that the "isolator" has the ability to flow both ways.
 
bgq007 said:
John,

Thanks! My plan was actually to try and find reasonably priced AGM's. My question for you, what do I gain (or lose) by going with 2 6v vs 1 12v? In my original post, I mentioned this choice, but that is only because during my reading I found many people going with 2 6v. I don't understand the "benefit" of doing this. 

As far as a budget goes... I am thinking around $1000 max for the batteries, "isolator"/kit, and inverter (and wiring). If I can squeeze a solar panel and regulator (I think that is what they are called) then GREAT!

Billy

The advantage of using 2 flooded lead-acid (FLA) 6V golf-cart batteries for a 12V battery bank is that it's a cost-effective way of constructing a 12V battery bank.

Since you're looking at an AGM house battery bank (thus taking the 2 FLA 6V golf-cart battery recommendation off the table), you can build your battery bank using either 1 12V battery or 2 6V batteries.  Each method has advantages and disadvantages.

The main advantage of using a single 12V AGM battery is that, if you find one that has sufficient capacity for your needs, you don't need to deal with any additional cabling to connect it with another battery.  Further, all else being equal, the single 12V AGM battery will often cost less than a pair of 6V AGM batteries of equal capacity.  The disadvantage is that one 12V battery will weigh about the same as two 6V batteries, for the same capacity.  Depending on the desired capacity of your battery bank, manhandling one really heavy battery can be problematic, when compared to manhandling two heavy batteries one at a time.

The advantage of using a pair of 6V AGM batteries, connected in serial (imagine an old-school flashlight that uses two dry-cell batteries; the batteries are in serial) is that, as noted above, it's much easier individually to manhandle two 6V AGM batteries, each of which weighs 62.4 pounds, than it is to manhandle one 12V AGM battery that weighs 114.6 pounds (note that either of these configurations would give you a 12V battery bank with a capacity of 200 Amp*hours).  The disadvantages include higher cost and just a bit of extra complexity (the additional cabling to connect the two batteries).

What I recommend avoiding whenever possible is wiring more than two 12V batteries in parallel to build a 12V battery bank.  Each parallel connection increases the chance that the batteries in the bank will discharge and/or charge unevenly.  That's a short path to premature battery death.

Before you start designing your house power system, it's a good idea to figure out what loads you need your system to support.  It would be both wasteful and counterproductive to have a 200 Amp*hour 12V battery bank to power an average daily load of 20 Amp*hours.  You would rarely cycle the battery bank deep enough for good battery health, and you would need a much larger solar panel setup to keep such a battery bank properly charged.

A good rule-of-thumb for sizing a lead-acid battery bank (FLA or AGM) is that it should have enough capacity that the expected daily load it's supporting doesn't take it below about 25% depth-of-discharge (i.e., after a 24-hour period, the battery bank should still have a remaining state-of-charge of 75% or so).
 
if your starting battery is isolated there is no need for the isolator to flow both ways. if it was me I would go with a isolator solenoid. they are cheap and they work. you can buy these at any auto parts store, just get a "continuous duty solenoid". I like Standard brand. use your ignition circuit or a dedicated switch to energize. the ignition is the simplest as it requires no input from the user. highdesertranger
 
AuricTech said:
....

Before you start designing your house power system, it's a good idea to figure out what loads you need your system to support.  It would be both wasteful and counterproductive to have a 200 Amp*hour 12V battery bank to power an average daily load of 20 Amp*hours.  You would rarely cycle the battery bank deep enough for good battery health, and you would need a much larger solar panel setup to keep such a battery bank properly charged.

A good rule-of-thumb for sizing a lead-acid battery bank (FLA or AGM) is that it should have enough capacity that the expected daily load it's supporting doesn't take it below about 25% depth-of-discharge (i.e., after a 24-hour period, the battery bank should still have a remaining state-of-charge of 75% or so).

AuricTech,

Any resources to really help me to determine my power needs? Right now, all I really have is my MacBook. The input on it says 100-240V ~ 1.5A 50-60 Hz and the output says 16.5 - 18.5V === 4.6A Max. I would ideally like to have it available to me all day long. The only other thing (besides some lights) would potentially be a 3 way fridge. 

This is the battery I was looking at, but again my lack of knowledge about what things mean hurts my understanding... http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/24-agm/

Thanks!

Billy
 
highdesertranger said:
if your starting battery is isolated there is no need for the isolator to flow both ways.  if it was me I would go with a isolator solenoid.  they are cheap and they work.  you can buy these at any auto parts store,  just get a "continuous duty solenoid".  I like Standard brand.  use your ignition circuit or a dedicated switch to energize.  the ignition is the simplest as it requires no input from the user.   highdesertranger

Well, the car stereo is still on the main battery and the sliding door gets left open a lot (not sure if that means anything if the dome light is turned off) so there is still a potential to draw power from the main battery. The ability to charge the main battery and to be able to jump it if needed seems like a wise decision to me.
 
bgq007 said:
Just checking... The Charge Controller we are talking about here is in regard to the Solar system correct? Do you have any recommendations? I am not really at a point to be thinking of this, but good to get an idea. The other thing that I forgot about in my initial post was the ability to charge from a house as well. Basically, 3 ways to charge: Alternator, Solar, and Shore (I think that might be the correct term.... basically being able to plug into an AC power source). 

Billy

PS - Again also brings me back to ensuring that the "isolator" has the ability to flow both ways.

Take a look at the Blue Sky SC30 PWM controller.  You can set the Absorption voltage to whatever you want, and it's not horribly expensive.  The manual is downloadable.  Of course, this is one of the smaller controllers, the size depends on how much solar panel capacity you wind up with.  The absorption voltage should be set to whatever the battery manufacturer recommends.

Any shore power charger you buy should also have bulk, absorption and float stages, and needs to be settable for the voltages the battery manufacturer recommends.  There is no equalization on AGM batteries.

Regards
 
Wow! Okay, here it is in one simple sentence that will meet all your requirements.

Buy two 4 gauge, 12 volt wires, and a basic On-Off Switch made for batteries and wire them from your starting battery, to the on-off switch, to the house battery.

It should cost $50 and will charge your battery off the alternator and anyone can do it--no wiring required except 4 simple bolts (2 on the batteries and 2 on the back of the "on-Off" switch.

It's not automatic--you have to remember to turn it on and off. To get automatic you need a continuous duty solenoid, but that will require some wiring, not much, but some.

If you have leftover money, get a Renogy 100 watt solar kit and mount it to the roof--some wiring required. Or a 100 watt Renogy suitcase solar kit--virtually no wiring required.

Buy the biggest Walmart marine battery you can find--be sure to save the receipt. It's a learning battery and you are probably going to kill it--that's normal, most of us do that! Chances are you'll kill it while it's under warranty so you can exchange it.

Don't let the complexity paralyze you, start simple and small and learn as you go. Expect to make some mistakes, just try not to lose too much money making them.
Bob
 
The thing with 6v flooded golf cart batteries, is that they were designed around deep cycling and resistance to degradation from less than proper recharging. A 12v marine battery could be drained dead and left for a week or two discharged and be permanently damaged fro such abuse. Whereas a pair of 6v batteries in parallel, all factors being equal, could very well 'take a charge' and still give respectable performance afterward.

ALL 12v batteries, no matter how well they are marketed, with 'DEEP cycle' prominently displayed on the sticker, can not ever compare to the ruggedness of a pair of 6v Golf cart batteries in deep cyclic applications. The Trojan T-105 6v golf cart battery sets a benchmark in cycle life and resistance to abuse, and while more expensive than other 6v GC batteries, all it takes is one semi miraculous recovery to abuse which sets the substandard and the benchmark battery apart, making the benchmark significantly cheaper battery to purchase in the first place.

Sam's club, and Costco carry 6v golf cart batteries and a pair of these in series are Superior to a set of 12v batteries of equal capacity, but they are also not in the same league as Trojan T-105 or Crown or USbattery GC-2 batteries, Or East Penn Deka.

Very Few 12v batteries are built anywhere near as durable 6v batteries in deep cycle applications. Even the 'true' 12v Deep cycle batteries, of which there are terribly few and these few are terribly pricey, will have only half the rated cycle life as a pair of t-105's, and only if they are recharged promptly and properly.

The golf cart market is where the big4 battery manufacturers goto war against each other Any clear winner here in this market can easily take over the market share, So they compete. the ^v golfcart battery market is where the manufacturers will expend all their efforts into a winning battery. The 12v batteries they sell with deep cycle stickers are a complete joke in comparison... they make them only because there is a market for them, but it would take a drunk applications engineer( marketer) to admit that any 12v battery can hold a candle to a 6v battery, and they'd recant in the morning and hope to heck they are not fired before lunch.

AGMs are a legitimate crossover battery capable of High CCA ratings and also claim resistance to multiple deep cycles, however the AGM's have less tolerance for less than perfect recharging.
If you can meet the AGM charging specs, they can be awesome. Generally, AGMs want higher amp recharges they thrive on higher amp recharges, well and above what most Solar only recharge regimens are capable of . The maximum Absorption voltage varies a bit brand to brand. If you cannot meet them, then they can be a very expensive battery that was killed in the same time as the least expensive battery. Often people equate price with the ability to be ignored. Odyssey, Northstar and Lifeline have ridiculously expensive batteries. they are extremely capable batteries, when recharged properly, but improperly recharged, they become expensive paperweights all too soon. And the purchaser of such a battery expects their price to impart immunity to owner abuse. Such consumers are the most vocal, but the blame lies in the mirror when premature failure occurs.

Battery life is directly proportional to the recharging regimen's efficacy. 6v flooded golf cart batteries are easier to properly fully recharge, no matter how vociferous the 12v proponents get, and they can get obscene when questioned or doubted, or just need a soothing agreement from a fellow 12v user.

There is no one right answer to any of this, but many wrong answers. Optimistic paranoid did not type anything I disagree with, and I thank him/her for summing it up nicely.

The trick to a well working electrical system is to charge the battery back to 100% as often as possible and as soon as possible, and prevent discharging the battery below 50% State of charge regularly.

Do this and you can expect acceptable battery life. Ignore this minimum and you will pay for it, with new batteries, replaced prematurely, an aggravation to spare.

Solar is great for the 80 to 100% recharge, but , other higher amp charging sources applied early enough so that the solar can easily do the 80 to 100% thing from late morning to sundown and earlier, really makes for a happier longer lasting battery.

It really sucks when the battery just noticeably walks down in overall capacity every cycle. Only those with an Ammeter or who observe their voltmeter religiously under discharge will ever notice any aberrations. The rest love the head in the sand ostrich approach, and seek comfort in numbers, and they readily find it.

It works 'just fine' until the day it does not. 95% of battery dischargers froth their way to the 'just fine' delineation with absolutely no understanding until the day when their battery capacity is no longer 'just fine' to meet their needs, or the battery shorts a cell way to early in its life.

If you need at least 210 AH of battery, you are wise to get 6v golf cart batteries as opposed to any 12v battery. Every 12v battery is a compromise. Every 12v battery ,but a seldom few, was designed to be a drop in replacement for an automotive starting battery. As such, they cannot compare to the 6v golf cart battery which was designed for a specific purpose, which is deep cycling.

Do not believe the marketers, or the marketing. If you want a battery capable of resistance to user error and improper care, the 6v battery will pay for itself compared to the person buying a pair of group 31 12v 'deep cycle' or marine batteries of nearly the same capacity.

It is also easier to fully charge a set of 6v golf cart batteries than it is a pair of 12v batteries. 12v batteries tend to need higher absorption voltages applied for longer to reach a true 100% recharge, and if they do not get this, then the next discharge they only have 95%, then 90, then 85, and so on, until at one point the human observer notices that batteries' no longer take a charge' and only then go through the increased effort required to maximize the specific gravity across all cells, and this can require chargers than can bring the battery to and hold it at 16 volts. Such a charger is a rare bird indeed.

At such a point the 12v batteries need some serious loving( 4 hours at 14.8v or higher) to return to anywhere their 'new' rated capacity, where as the 6v batteries will take half the effort and start calling you the sissy. "You call that a Knife?"

If you can accommodate the extra height requirements of a pair of 6v golf cart batteries in series, but instead opt for 2 of any 12v flooded battery in parallel, you should check yourself into the mental hospital, as you'll be essentially paying nearly twice as much for half the battery lifespan, all factors being equal.

CCA ratings mean diddley squat in a deep cycle application.
Positive plate thickness is the deciding factor in Deep cycle applications.
Trojan t-105 batteries have thick robust positive plates and as such they are the benchmark cycleable flooded battery, and their initial cost increase, will cost less in the long run, the only exception is for those who were desitined to kill a battery ASAP by chronic undercharging an ignorance that a lead acid battery cannot be left discharged until convenient for the human to recharge it.

Lifeline AGM batteries have by far the thickest positive plates of any AGm battery. Only a few true deep cycle batteries even bother with CCA ratings, and only do so because of consumer uproar and ignorance. In fact of two batteries rated at 100 Amp hour capacity, the one with 700 CCA will fare much poorer than the one rated at 600CCA in deep cycle applications. One can almost determine the thickest positive plates by the lowest CCA numbers. The Lifeline group31 T batery has 105 amp hours and 600CCA. the Odyssey group31 has 1150CCA and 100 amp hours. In the same deep cycle application, the lifeline should deliver 2x total number of cycles. However the Odyssey will always crank the engine faster

Setting up a System initially, one should seek to incorporate 6v GC batteries if possible. They are by far, the best bang for the buck. Those of us stuck with a single 12v battery, have acknowledged the fact that no single 12v battery, no matter how well designed and constructed and marketed, can compare to the 6v Golf cart battery in deep cycle applications.

My Next batter will be the Trojan T-1275. This is a 'scrubber' battery, and almost on Par with the Trojan t-105, but this is one of the only 12v batteries which comes anywhere near the 6v T-105 standard for resistance to sub optimal charging and abuse.

I have no faith in Wally world batteries. Johnson controls, who make WW batteries, is not well known for anything but starting batteries, and their dual purpose marine batteries do not do well when treated as a deep cycle battery, so while Wally worlds are everywhere and you can kill one of their batteries and pay for a pro rated replacement, often there is no money saved and a lot of aggravation added when the petulant battery' no longer takes a charge'
 
SternWake,

Ok, I got a little lost, but I understand you think 6v is the way to go. That being the case, what do I do about most likely not being able to get to them for maintenance? The T-105 if I understood is flooded and I would need to check on them regularly (however I do like the price!). I don't want that because most likely they will be mounted under the vehicle and I won't be cutting anything to have access. What is my option now? I think we are back to AGM and excessively expensive. 

Or what are some other mounting options (Ford E150) for flooded batteries? I've seen Sportmobiles with boxes on the back. Not sure if they are mounted to the door or some other way. I wouldn't be against to putting something on the back if I can buy something. I don't have tools to be building stuff (metal).
 
Thumbs-up. I don't always agree with every thing from SternWake, but he nailed it in that last post about 6 volt golf cart batteries and the care of AGM's. Here on the east coast, Sam's Club has Duracell branded golf cart batteries. They have a good reputation with the marine cruisers. I believe they are made by East Penn. 235 amp hour are about $110 each. Some experts advise avoiding AGM for house batteries and instead recommend Gel type sealed batteries.
 
Bitty,

Lots of great discussion. If you go with AGM for ease of maintenance and considering your budget you can install the charging circuit from the car as described and if you you don't have money for solar yet and you have the opportunity to plug in once in awhile you can use an AGM battery charger/maintainer to keep the AGM battery happy until you have solar to top it off. Here is an example of such a charger/maintainer. http://www.amazon.com/BatteryMINDer...435075477&sr=1-3&keywords=agm+battery+charger

This also gives you the ability to charge when solar is limited once you get that set up.

Brent
 
akrvbob said:
Buy two 4 gauge, 12 volt wires, and a basic On-Off Switch made for batteries and wire them from your starting battery, to the on-off switch, to the house battery.

Actually, you need THREE 4 gauge 12 volt wires.  The house battery needs to be grounded to the vehicle in order to have a closed circuit.  Without that, NO current will flow from the alternator.  And the ground wire should always be the same size as the hot wire, lest it become a limiting factor.

Regards
John
 
4 gage 12 volt wires?  The voltage has nothing to do in this usage.  A 4 G wire will handle up to 600V. 4G is large, and passes the power without excess resistance.

Buy a long 4 gage copper stranded wire, and make it fit with a hydraulic crimper, or measure the runs, get custom wires made.  Do not forget fuses as a safety feature to keep from burning up your components and or van. In this useage ground is critical.  That is where most electrical problems happen.  Bad ground connection.  The number of wires depends on how you build your system.
 
And ground to the frame or an existing bolt that goes into the frame.  Grounding to the sheet metal will only give you problems..
 
bgq007 said:
AuricTech,

Any resources to really help me to determine my power needs? Right now, all I really have is my MacBook. The input on it says 100-240V ~ 1.5A 50-60 Hz and the output says 16.5 - 18.5V === 4.6A Max. I would ideally like to have it available to me all day long. The only other thing (besides some lights) would potentially be a 3 way fridge. 

This is the battery I was looking at, but again my lack of knowledge about what things mean hurts my understanding... http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/24-agm/

To determine the actual power consumption of your MacBook (or anything you plan to run using AC power), I suggest that you get a Kill-a-Watt meter.  Do a search on this forum; there are plenty of posts about them.

Concerning the battery, what you'll want to look at in terms of capacity is the 20-hour rate.  Don't get a battery until you have at least some idea of your loads.  If you will have both  AC and DC loads, the easiest way to keep consistent is to convert all your loads to Watts and Watt*hours.  The battery to which you linked would have a capacity of 912 Watt*hours (12V * 76 Amp*hours).  For a learner AGM battery (which you'll likely end up murdering prematurely), you might want to look at one of the foreign-made brands such as Universal.  That way, when it dies early, you're not out as much cash.

Absorption refrigerators (the kind that can run on either propane or electricity) are not well-suited for battery power.  The way they operate is that they have a heating element, and creating heat by using electricity is very inefficient.  There are quite a few high-efficiency compressor refrigerators that have been discussed on this forum.  I'm sure that folks here with experience using them would be happy to share their insights.
 
Top