Adding an Auxiliary Battery

[bgq007]

Hello Everyone!

So, for the last couple of days I have been researching dual batteries for my Ford E150. During this time, I have thoroughly confused myself and as a result it is time to seek some help to clear things up. I am new here, btw. 

What do I want?

1 - Add (to start) 1 12v or 2 6v batteries as auxiliary batteries
2 - Be able to charge both batteries (all batteries) while driving
3 - Not drain the starting/main battery while camping
4 - Be able to jump the main battery via the aux battery (but I don't really care to have a switch in the cab. I am fine with opening the hood and pressing a button)
5 - Want the "isolator" (using this as a generic term) to be simple installation. By this I am thinking it just needs to be connected to the batteries and no need to tie into an ignition source. 
6 - Reasonably priced.
7 - A system that doesn't care if the batteries are the same

Future considerations:

1 - Easily add more batteries. As my needs grow, I may need more power and this might require more batteries. I want to ensure I can charge while driving but I don't want to be adding more "isolators" (if at all possible). 
2 - Solar power. I may want to add solar power at some point and would like the "isolator" to function both ways so that if I am camped for a period of time and not using a lot of power, the system would allow the solar power to charge the main battery. 
3 - Adding a small fridge (might be a sooner thing if price was right).
4 - Things I haven't thought of yet

Things to be aware of:

1 - I'm pretty poor
2 - The location of the aux battery/ies will most likely have to be located under the vehicle someplace. (or inside if that is safe).
3 - I'm sure I have forgotten something meaningful.

What have I checked out so far:

1 - National Luna Intelligent (http://www.equipt1.com/item/intelligent-solenoid) ()
2 - Redarc - http://www.redarc.com.au/products/category/4wd-sbi-series-dual-battery-isolator/
3 - WirthCo Battery Doctor Isolator - http://www.wirthco.com/battery-volt-battery-isolator-20092-p-1186-l-en.html
4 - Stinger
5 - Tons and tons of websites and videos

What do I need from you all? - Understanding and patience... Not to mention the ability to explain things very well so a child can understand. My initial thinking would really be to focus on getting the aux battery/ies installed (along with isolator) and figuring out how to connect a pure sine wave inverter to charge my laptop.  Additionally, I have some lights that are connected to the main battery that I guess I could cut and connect to the aux battery and add some toggle switches so I can turn them off and on as needed. Right now they are all disconnected because they operate the same as the dome light.

I think that is about it. I thank you in advance for the assistance. Please be sure to use links, diagrams, part numbers, and whatever that ensures I can follow along. Speaking generically or in a big picture won't help. I am looking for some specific options and ideas. 

Billy

 

[MikeRuth]

Hello Billy your in the right place to learn, your also in for an eye opener! I did something very similar to my 2007 E-150. I sent you a PM to look for some of my posts and if I can find links I'll post them up.

Your going to find out quite quickly that your best option is to consider Solar ASAP. Another thing is money. know you ad cheap but there is some expense here and unless you can find super deals there's going to be Expense. Let me offer some answers to your questions but others that have even more experience than me will certainly chime in here with EXCELLENT information.
Check this forum often new posts will pop up all the time.

Your #1? the best option for 12 Volt auxiliary power often referred to as house batteries comes in the form of two 6 volt deep cycle batteries called Golf cart batteries. pound for pound and size they can hardly be beat. The most common and one of the best are Trojan T-105. I believe US Battery is right there with them. I choose Trojans.

#2? You can charge the batteries while driving but not completely and correctly. There's a ton of info on this site to tell you why but in a nutshell our automotive charging system was not designed to correctly charge these types of batteries. They require higher finishing voltages to properly get topped off. you can read up at Trojans website on the proper charging methods. Hence the need for solar.

#3, 4 and 5? kind of go together. Indeed you need a system to isolate the house batteries from the starting battery. This is done in one of a couple ways. Using a device which is actually designed as a battery isolater. There are many on the market but in general not typically the first choice. One of the reasons is again there design hampers allowing the house batteries to charge properly. The second option is to use a solenoid switch that is manually operated by you. This will allow you to charge the batteries while driving and disconnect them when camped etc. It can let you use the house batteries to assist in starting if the starting battery has become to low to start your vehicle. This should only be used as an emergency option.

#6 reasonably priced, well Trojan t-105 batteries are about $105.00 each on the average. Unless you find some that are used in good condition. BTW your going to want to learn how to use a hydrometer to check the condition of any lead acid battery. Solenoids are cheap so to speak. There will be costs in power cable, some type of battery mount, (I built my own) cable ends etc.

#7 Don't even think of using two dissimilar batteries. There a ton of information why on this forum. You really need to get two matched 6 volt batteries. simple as that. It's a good investment.

For the future,I don't know where the heck two more batteries can be put on an E-150 unless they are inside, and again they should be a match to the first two, and at that point you really need to have a solar charging system and or capable shore powered charging system. Again you will find and receive more info on here, topic for topic.
There is an option to e what is called AGM batteries, they are more expensive to invest in and require even greater care. But, they can be used inside the vehicle with  lot less concern for safety.

You may disheartened by the fact that I have not detailed tings quite like you have asked for. Fact is, you need to do some more home work based on what I have said right here on this site. Seriously everything you want to know is here, and it is good quality information. Just start reading the electrical forum, use your favorites option to save pages as you are going to come across many that you will need to refer back to. As you gain more knowledge and ave a PLAN myself ad others will help you get info on the exact item you may want to use.
This takes some time to do, I spent every day looking here ad asking some questions before I put a plan together and I'm really happy with what I have now.

Believe me the folks here will be patient and understanding, but you to need to look around and read up as everything you have asked about is here.

Look forward to helping and seeing your progress.

Mike R

 

[GotSmart]

Here is a list of the parts I used in my build.

The links kind of did not happen in all of them, but you can cut and paste.

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=13222

 

[bgq007]

Here is a list of the parts I used in my build.

The links kind of did not happen in all of them, but you can cut and paste.

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=13222

GotSmart,

Thanks... Lots of good ideas there. I have one question for you. The isolator, how does it function compared to my desired functions? 

I think this is my biggest hurdle in starting anything. Without the correct isolator/solenoid Im starting off on the wrong foot. 

Thanks!

 

[MikeRuth]

He's not using an Isolator. He is using a Solenoid as am I. A solenoid is a HIGH current Switch that is operated by a low current. Typically a Solenoid has four poles on it.

Two of the poles are for high current switching. the other two poles are for 12 volts DC to turn the solenoid on or off. Solenoids are unless otherwise indicated sold as a NO(normally open)switch. 

In a typical installation from the positive connection either on your battery or the alternator(preferred) a heavy gauge wire is run to either one of the high current poles. Then from the remaining pole again a heavy gauge wire is connected to the house battery positive. Then light gauge wire and usually a switch is used to turn it on and off. In my case I have a 12 volt lead run to a switch in my cab that is hot all the time. then from that switch is a light gauge wire run to one of the 12 volt poles on the solenoid. The other pole is connected to ground. So when I flip the switch 12 volts is applied to the solenoid and the high current switch closes and both batteries positive poles are connected.
there also should be a fuse of sufficient size between the battery or alternator and the solenoid.

Mike R

 

[bgq007]

Mike,

This is what I mean when I put isolator in quotes. I am using that as a catch-all term because I don't know the difference between things. Also, this is why I think this is my main thing I need to figure out. 

Like I said, I am looking for something that is relatively straight forward to connect. I can follow directions, but the Stinger stuff I looked at scared me away because it said I needed to connect it to a live ignition source. Whereas the WirthCo Battery Doctor device (in my OP as a link) doesn't need that. 

I have spent hours upon hours reading and researching and all I have gotten is confused. Mostly because it appears that for most cases the terms are used interchangeably. Whether that is right or wrong I am not commenting on. The first time I have heard the term solenoid is today when I came across National Luna Intelligent Solenoid and here (in reference to this question). 

So, whatever the device is, I am looking for relatively easy connection. Would prefer not to install anything in the cab, would like it to be able to jump the main battery if need be (a button in the engine compartment would be fine), and would like for it to be "bi-directional" (if that is the right term) so that if I have a solar solution it can send power to the main battery to charge it. 

Billy

 

[highdesertranger]

a solenoid is pretty straight forward. your fuse box should have an ignition tap for the actuator wire. you could always go with a manual switch. here's a whole page of them. http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6asksr64qh_e . the only problem with manuals is you have to remember to switch it on and off. highdesertranger

 

[SternWake]

Triggering a regular/ Dumb, continuous duty solenoid by the ignition is pretty easy and is the cheapest method for effective secondary battery charging and isolation.


But the surepower 1314 is a voltage sensing solenoid

http://www.amazon.com/Sure-Power-1314-Uni-Directional-Separator/dp/B004RCUUWU

As is the Blueseas ACR.  This one is not good for solar systems at is will combine the batteries when either battery achieves charging voltages.  This might sound good, but it will waste solar watts bringing the engine battery to absorption voltage when the engine battery might not neeed to be brought to absorption voltages


http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...qid=1434950572&sr=1-13&keywords=blue+seas+acr

This one allows for manual push button paralleling for self jumping:
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...&qid=1434950676&sr=8-5&keywords=blue+seas+acr

I use a 1/2/both/off blues seas switch.  This requires manual Human intervention to combine batteries when running and isolate them on engine shut down.

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...qid=1434950342&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+seas+6007

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

You had a lot of good replies.  One point not covered was battery location.

You mentioned possibly mounting your auxiliary batteries UNDER the vehicle.

The cheapest, best batteries for you needs are, as mentioned, 6 volt golf cart batteries.  These are Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries, and you will need easy access to the tops of them on a REGULAR basis to check the fluid level and add distilled water as needed.  NEVER let the fluid level drop down to the point that the lead plates are exposed to the air.  This WILL cause damage to the cells.  Equalizing such batteries regularly is necessary for maximum life, and equalizing WILL cause them to lose water, which must be replaced.  You will also need access to check the cells regularly with a battery hydrometer.  By regularly, I mean at least once a month, and in the beginning, more often while you get a feel for how the fluid levels are doing - there are a lot of variables that affect this, temperature, how often discharged and recharged, etc.

If you simply MUST mount the batteries underneath, you really need to use SEALED batteries, which for all practical purposes means Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries.  You never need to check the cells or add water.  In fact, since they are sealed, you CAN'T do either of those things.

The downside is that AGMs typically cost 2 to 3 times as much as FLA batteries.

BTW, the Trojan batteries Mike Ruth recommended are probably the best, highest quality available.  If money is really tight, a lot of people buy golf cart batteries from Costco or Sam's Club.  You'll get a few good years out of them if you take care of them, and you can eventually replace them with the better Trojans when funds permit. 

Regards
John

 

[ccbreder]

As long as your not charging your battery to the point of bubbling, it is safe to have them inside the van.

 

[GotSmart]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]GotSmart,[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Thanks... Lots of good ideas there. I have one question for you. The isolator, how does it function compared to my desired functions? [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I think this is my biggest hurdle in starting anything. Without the correct isolator/solenoid Im starting off on the wrong foot. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Thanks![/font]

You are hung up on setting up the "perfect" unit, and have been looking at high dollar fancy switches.  most of them include the parts recommended, with an added gadget.  

Stick with the basics, and do it simple the first time.  I got all these ideas from this board, and built this over 1 1/2 years.  I have a switch on my dash with a red light on it that lights up when it is on.  There was a lose factory connection that happened to become active when the van was running, so I used that as the trigger.  It took a year for me to be able to afford my panels.   

Sternwake is the person I looked up when I needed to know how to do something.  

The first step of any project is the planning.  You can see from my build threads how I installed my batteries under the floor with a lid to check them.  That was $150 for the cutting tool and the steel box.

 

[SternWake]

As long as your not charging your battery to the point of bubbling, it is safe to have them inside the van.

And if you do not get flooded/wet batteries them to gassing voltages regularly, then they are going to die prematurely.

I have a battery box under my floor behind driver's seat.  There is an access hatch from above.

Even with  the access hatch, checking water levels was such a PITA, I put it off for too long twice, and shortened the lives of the batteries.

If an Isolator has a finned heat sink, it is a Diode based isolator.  A diode only allows electrical current to flow in one direction.

These waste power, via heat( the large heatsink) and drop voltages so the battery has little chance of being fully charged, and as such, dies prematurely.  Some try and overcome this voltage drop through manipulating the voltage regulator to allow more voltage.  Lost cause in my opinion

The Simple solenoid has an electromagnet in it.  When the magnet is energized, it closes the larger contacts which pass alternator current.  They consume current to hold the electromagnet closed.  Anywhere from .6 to 1.2 amps.  A relay or a 'contactor' are either the same or very similar and some people use these names interchangeably in this context.

If one needs to jump the engine battery with house battery, one either needs to energize the magnet with 12v+, or jump the larger cable terminals, or remove one cable and move it to the other post, temporarily.

Latching solenoids are more rare but only need a momentary burst of 12v to latch or unlatch the contacts and do not consume current powering an electromagnet the entire time the relay/solenoid  is closed.

The Surepower 1314 is a 'smart solenoid'  It detects charging voltages and then parallels the batteries, and disconnects them once voltage falls.  no user input required

The Blue seas ACR is a good unit, but will combine/parallel the batteries any time either battery sees charging voltages.

Sometimes these Smart automatic systems are so Stupid, they don't work properly.  I have an AGM battery whose fully charged resting voltage is 13.06v.  If the solenoid only disconnects when battery voltage drops to 12.8v, then it would take a few hours of the solenoid itself drawing off the battery before it would unparallel the batteries, or the other battery drawing off the AGM battery.  Not going to cause a stranding, but it will unnecessarily  cycle the expensive AGM battery shallowly and greatly shorten its life.

I use the manual Switch (1/2/Both/OFF) option as I want to be the one who decides where current comes from and flows to.  I don't want some stupid logic chip dictating this just because i have no ability to remember to turn another switch shortly after moving my ignition switch.  I can also remember to not turn the switch to OFF with the engine running, which can fry the diodes in the alternator.

The Simple solenoid has many advantages.  One can just put a lighted switch on the activating electromagnet circuit and decide when to combine or separate batteries at the flip of a switch on the dashboard.  This switch circuit can also be ignition controlled so it is only live with the engine running, and only if the driver flips the illuminated switch to ON

For respectable current to flow into the Aux battery, thicker wire gauge needs to be employed between engine battery or alternator, and solenoid, and Aux battery.  4awg is good, 8awg is as small as I would consider, 10 awg is too small.  Too much voltage drop, causes not enough pressure differential, and thus not enough recharging amps to flow.  The result of relying solely on the alternator for charging, is chronic undercharging and shortened battery life.  That is is one actually cycles their batteries below 80% state of charge.

We often get stories about how long a recycled battery lasts with a weak ass charging circuit, but the story teller leaves out important details like the battery is rarely deeply discharged, and they they live in a bubble where the laws of physics do not apply.

It takes time at absorption voltages to fully charge lead acid batteries from ~80% to 100% . 2 to 4 hours, and that is if the battery is actually getting absorption voltages. These are facts and not open to interpretation.
 There can be many reasons why the battery does not receive proper absorption voltages.  Don't limit the ability of the AUX battery to see absorption voltages by using too thin a wire between battery and alternator.

And to not fall into the  low and slow charging is always best for the battery , 'trickle charge' mentality that is often spouted as gospel online.  That only applies if one has days to recharge, not when the next discharge cycle begins as soon as the engine is turned off.  Batteries can accept huge levels of current when depleted, and if cycled hard and deeply daily, benefit greatly from these huge currents.  So quench them with high amps through thick cabling.

Spend more $ on copper now will save you money in Lead (PB) later.

 

[Almost There]

So Sternwake, what is the best of the best in automatic 'smart solenoids' if one chose to use one?

 

[SternWake]

I'd say the Blue seas if it were only single sense, meaning it only paralleled the batteries when the engine battery received charging voltages.

If one does not have Solar and never intends to employ it then no big deal if it is Dual sense.

I think BEP marine has a good single sense smart solenoid.

http://www.amazon.com/BEP-Marine-71...TF8&qid=1435000323&sr=8-3&keywords=BEP+marine

I've not fully researched all the smart solenoid, charging relay options out there.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

If an Isolator has a finned heat sink, it is a Diode based isolator.  A diode only allows electrical current to flow in one direction.

Stern, I'm not sure that's completely true anymore.  Are you familiar with Hellroaring Technology?  http://www.hellroaring.com/nodiode.php

I think they're using MOSFETs instead of diodes.  Anyway, the claimed voltage loss is miniscule.

Regards
John

 

[bgq007]

You had a lot of good replies.  One point not covered was battery location.

You mentioned possibly mounting your auxiliary batteries UNDER the vehicle.

The cheapest, best batteries for you needs are, as mentioned, 6 volt golf cart batteries.  These are Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries, and you will need easy access to the tops of them on a REGULAR basis to check the fluid level and add distilled water as needed.  NEVER let the fluid level drop down to the point that the lead plates are exposed to the air.  This WILL cause damage to the cells.  Equalizing such batteries regularly is necessary for maximum life, and equalizing WILL cause them to lose water, which must be replaced.  You will also need access to check the cells regularly with a battery hydrometer.  By regularly, I mean at least once a month, and in the beginning, more often while you get a feel for how the fluid levels are doing - there are a lot of variables that affect this, temperature, how often discharged and recharged, etc.

If you simply MUST mount the batteries underneath, you really need to use SEALED batteries, which for all practical purposes means Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries.  You never need to check the cells or add water.  In fact, since they are sealed, you CAN'T do either of those things.

The downside is that AGMs typically cost 2 to 3 times as much as FLA batteries.

BTW, the Trojan batteries Mike Ruth recommended are probably the best, highest quality available.  If money is really tight, a lot of people buy golf cart batteries from Costco or Sam's Club.  You'll get a few good years out of them if you take care of them, and you can eventually replace them with the better Trojans when funds permit. 

Regards
John

John,

Thanks! My plan was actually to try and find reasonably priced AGM's. My question for you, what do I gain (or lose) by going with 2 6v vs 1 12v? In my original post, I mentioned this choice, but that is only because during my reading I found many people going with 2 6v. I don't understand the "benefit" of doing this. 

As far as a budget goes... I am thinking around $1000 max for the batteries, "isolator"/kit, and inverter (and wiring). If I can squeeze a solar panel and regulator (I think that is what they are called) then GREAT!

Billy

 

[bgq007]

Triggering a regular/ Dumb, continuous duty solenoid by the ignition is pretty easy and is the cheapest method for effective secondary battery charging and isolation.


But the surepower 1314 is a voltage sensing solenoid

http://www.amazon.com/Sure-Power-1314-Uni-Directional-Separator/dp/B004RCUUWU

SternWake,

You had a couple of posts, the second one was longer and to be honest I got a little lost. Regarding this one, I had come across the BlueSea options but again, my difficulty lies in fully understanding what is happening. 

GotSmart mentioned in a comment that I am looking for the "perfect high priced unit" (something similar to that) and I don't think that is the case ... fully. I think it is accurate that I am looking for the perfect unit. But this is in the sense that I don't want to be buying something that I know won't do something I plan to do. In your other post, you talk about finned diodes or heatsinks and how they only go one way, and I believe you made the same comment about the Blue Seas here. 

If I understood correctly, then I would say those are not things that I want. I DO PLAN to add solar at some point, and I DO WANT to ensure whatever I am putting in for the "isolator" (again a generic placeholder term) to allow the current to flow back to the main battery to keep it charged. 

It appears, if I understood the many links, the Sure Power device will allow for this. I am a little confused as I found "uni-direction" and "bi-direction" units and admittedly, I am not really sure what the difference is. "uni" implies multi to me but "bi" implies 2 way.... So what's the difference? 

I also have a question on the "jump starting" as the documentation seems to imply that this function is built in, ready to go, but then in other places it looks like it is saying it needs a switch installed. 

In your other post, you also mention how you want to control how the batteries function, and I have mentioned that I want to be left out of that because I am afraid of forgetting. But maybe it is more of a not understanding what I would need to do thing. The only reason I know of to connect the aux to the main is to charge and to possible jump if needed. So, when I am driving, I just want the system to charge up and be ready to be parked. (Then when parked to be kept charged when I add solar.) 

It sounds like you are saying that the Sure Power unit is the way to go for me. It also sounds like that is not the solution you chose for yourself. This is interesting, but may be a result of differing desires for the system.

Is anyone using the Sure Power that can provide some pictures and explain how the setup works? I read a lot and even downloaded a Battery and Charging 101 guide from one of the websites I was looking at. 

Billy

 

[bgq007]

You are hung up on setting up the "perfect" unit, and have been looking at high dollar fancy switches.  most of them include the parts recommended, with an added gadget.  

Stick with the basics, and do it simple the first time.  I got all these ideas from this board, and built this over 1 1/2 years.  I have a switch on my dash with a red light on it that lights up when it is on.  There was a lose factory connection that happened to become active when the van was running, so I used that as the trigger.  It took a year for me to be able to afford my panels.   

Sternwake is the person I looked up when I needed to know how to do something.  

The first step of any project is the planning.  You can see from my build threads how I installed my batteries under the floor with a lid to check them.  That was $150 for the cutting tool and the steel box.

Not looking for spendy, just not looking to get something that isn't going to function how I need/want. Also, I don't have the tools nor ability to cut into my van so I won't be cutting anything to add batteries (even though it sounds like a good idea). I don't even have a roof fan/vent because I am too scared to screw it up and I really want the air flow.

 

[LeeRevell]

I usually take "Uni" to mean "one", but that is in a different context, which can be quite different.

 

[bgq007]

I usually take "Uni" to mean "one", but that is in a different context, which can be quite different.

AH... I can see that and I am probably thinking of it incorrectly. As "uni" meaning one seems to make more sense. I am not sure why I was thinking of it as multi. So, if I am understanding this discussion correctly, I would be after a "bi-directional" unit.