Abandoned Retail Parking Lots

[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

Every time I read about a "retail apocalypse" I start fantasizing about turning those huge, mostly flat, convenient parking lots into something useful. I would think an urban setting would be beneficial to most van-dwellers, compared to out-of-the-way places in the forests or deserts.

Let your imagination run a little bit, and it's easy to see the advantages and benefits of legal places for van and car-dwellers to live, especially in abandoned retail parking lots.

The city could even hire a host who hands out a flyer to the users/campers/parkers, reminding them of, say, four rules they need to follow to keep it legal. Local food establishments and other businesses would see a lot of new revenue, and that means tax dollars for the city.

Let's abandon the pie in the sky now, and ask, Does anybody know of a locality that is experimenting with this approach?

 

[MrNoodly]

Owners of abandoned shopping centers desperately want new tenants or to sell. A bunch of riff-raff in the parking lots would work against those purposes.

 

[highdesertranger]

"I would think an urban setting would be beneficial to most van-dwellers, compared to out-of-the-way places in the forests or deserts."

I can't speak for everyone but in my case I don't want to be anywhere near an urban area except for resupply so why would I want to be in a parking lot with no stores?

highdesertranger

 

[travelaround]

Well... to each his own... but being in large rv or van parking areas could be helpful if a visit to a city is needed. Right now I'm into rural living.

 

[Gypsy Freedom]

good luck getting any regulatory body to approve such habitation with out proper means to deal with sanitation. trash and sewer become a big problem real quick.

that is one of the big issues many cities have been using to pass regulations preventing places like walmart from even allowing overnight parking

there was a group in the Los Angeles area i believe that had built a little community for homeless in abandoned land. but it was not free to come and go. you had to get approval and then do some work to stay and also had to be inspected periodically and if you didnt keep your space up, you were ousted. there was a lot of over head costs with trash and toilets and people to keep tabs and security. it was generally a success but last i heard was having hard times coming up with the funding to keep it going. i imagine something similar could be done for folks that at least have rigs to live in but would probably be held to the same requirements as RV parks/capgrounds. i know in klamath county oregon you have to provide 2 toilets for 15 camp/rv spaces.

the more people you try to pack into a small area the more infrastructure is required to keep it sane and sanitary. that it is a much bigger burden on the environment and planet. more industrial sewage treatment more trash hauling

 

[ZoNiE]

Once there are more than a couple of RV's, the trash pile begins...

 

[maki2]

Around my neighborhood where there is a retail store that closes the lot almost immediately becomes a pay to park lot. Even if not a lot of income gets generated from it the owner gets someone driving to it everyday and having cars that should not be there get towed away. Then the person who leased the lot gets a kickback from the towing company. It is a win/win for the owner of the lot and the parking lot company. It is also a win for the neighborhood as the lot does not become a dumping ground and it keeps illegal activities to a minimum which is helpful to the understaffed police department.

But since parking in the shopping areas in small towns or built up areas of towns is at a premium the other businesses do benefit from the newly created pay-to-park lot because the on street parking was not adequate to meet the needs.

 

[RoamerRV428]

yea I would think most of those big spots are privately owned. not a city situation. Private ownership would go broke without having their business making money, not being used for free for a dweller park situation.
I don't know of anywhere urban that is using abandoned parking areas in such a fashion.
Dwellers would bring a lot of new revenue to an area? I don't think the good would outweigh the bad mostly in this situation.

 

[Weldman]

Middle of a concrete/asphalt slab in middle of summer no trees around, sounds like hell to me, let me rotate every few minutes so as to not burn myself on one side too bad.

 

[geogentry]

I would think an urban setting would be beneficial to most van-dwellers, compared to out-of-the-way places in the forests or deserts.

Let your imagination run a little bit, and it's easy to see the advantages and benefits of legal places for van and car-dwellers to live, especially in abandoned retail parking lots.

The city could even hire a host.
Local food establishments and other businesses would see a lot of new revenue, and that means tax dollars for the city.

Where is all the money coming from to pay for this?

Rezoning fees, attorney fees, planning commission fees, civil engineering fees. Purchase of the parking lot and attached business buildings. Liability insurance fees. Security fees. Staff wages for your hosts, and their benefits. Management fees for the staff. Trash collection charges. Am I giving away drinking water? More civil engineering fees. Construction permits. Construction costs. Cost of water. Sewage fees to go with water supply. Am I giving away electric? Permits and fees to install electricity. Civil engineering fees for the electric. Construction costs to install electric.

The parking lot is worth about $2.5 million in an urban environment. Building roughly $20 million. (depends on the type of building) let's say you can get all the construction, permits and fees done for $7 million. Rounding off you end up at $30 million.

Let's say a very generous, budget friendly, amount of $100 a month for each parking space. With a very generous amount of spaces you get 150 spaces to the average parking lot. Utilities are $180 thousand a year. Each space has a value of $200 thousand dollars real estate value.

Who is going to pay for all this with little or no return on the investment?

And why would I want to live like that? Where I stay there is no smog and no traffic noise. The biggest crime I have seen in the last 16 months is a black bear tearing down my trash bag because it wasn't tied off properly. I never worry about drive by shootings, home invasion or being mugged. Shopping is always within 30 to 60 minutes away.

I let my imagination run wild. You offer a nightmare while I live a dream.



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[RoadStar66]

"I would think an urban setting would be beneficial to most van-dwellers, compared to out-of-the-way places in the forests or deserts."

I can't speak for everyone but in my case I don't want to be anywhere near an urban area except for resupply so why would I want to be in a parking lot with no stores?

highdesertranger

Sounds like it would be a good alternative for those who live in an older (undependable) RV and can't afford the gas to be one of those forever traveling vagabonds with the youtube channels posting videos from a different location every week. The hardest hurdle to implementing something like that would be the local NIMBYs. People would chant "they're all a bunch of mentally ill, drug addicted, disease infected zombies yearning to abduct our children and defecate on our doorstep" etc.

That's one reason you see the war on homeless brewing in the media. It's clear something like that is needed. The media are capitalizing on the fear this kind of thing might be coming to their neighborhood.

 

[RoadStar66]

Once there are more than a couple of RV's, the trash pile begins...

Didn't happen at RTR 2019.

 

[RoadStar66]

Where is all the money coming from to pay for this?

Rezoning fees, attorney fees, planning commission fees, civil engineering fees. Purchase of the parking lot and attached business buildings. Liability insurance fees. Security fees. Staff wages for your hosts, and their benefits. Management fees for the staff. Trash collection charges. Am I giving away drinking water? More civil engineering fees. Construction permits. Construction costs. Cost of water.  Sewage fees to go with water supply.  Am I giving away electric? Permits and fees to install electricity. Civil engineering fees for the electric. Construction costs to install electric. .....

Much of which could be used to put residents to work - building a work history giving a real chance of better employment outside this development.

All the costs you mention could be a fraction already levied by the homeless in terms of crime (related to no place, drug dealing, overdoses, clean up [involving police, not minimum wage laborers]). An intentional community (like RTR) can be run according to rules. Drug dealers and users could be permanently ejected. Police would probably welcome having a community that cooperates with them in keeping the criminal element from digging it's claws into the growing homeless population. 

Just google "failed malls" online. They are all over the country. Huge expanses of blacktop with electricity already in place (lighting) and sewer close by (for the mall).

 

[RoadStar66]

reply to : "And why would I want to live like that?"

Providing a semblance of a "home" to the homeless is not an obstacle to you living however you wish - or can afford to.

 

[geogentry]

]I believe the OP referenced van dealers. Are vans being bought and given to the homeless also?

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[geogentry]

RoadStar66

You seem to have a very altruistic viewpoint.

Yet you fail to mention where all the money will come from to pay for all this?

Since the buildings have electric and water so is going to pay to have all the space renovated and remodeled to house the homeless? And the maintenance?

The ones that break your rules are back on the streets. What then? Incarcerate them? Average cost is $50 thousand a year. America already has more people incarcerated than any other country.

Who
Is
Paying
For
All
These
Things?
Where is the money coming from? That is the question foremost to answer.

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[kaBLOOnie Boonster]

Of course I agree with all the practical difficulties that commenters have brought it. In the original post I admitted to indulging a little bit in pie-in-the-sky utopianism. Normally I make fun of other people when they do this.

My only excuse is that it was irresistible. I hate to think of acres of wasted parking lots that would make for a better life for many van or car dwellers. Consider the advantages:

1. Walk a couple blocks to a Dollar Store or a fast food store. Maybe their familiarity with you as a customer might lead to an employment opportunity.

2. Not needing a customized, over-improved, off-road warrior machine with all that money squandered on four wheel drive, lift kits, big knobby tires, etc.

3. Less money wasted on driving, driving, driving... It costs 33 cents a mile to drive around in vans and cars. Then you get to the crappy little grocery store in the mountain boutique tourist town and pay 33% too much for food. In town, the vehicle can be an inexpensive passenger car, which they practically give away these days, compared to those ridiculous brontosaurus-sized pickups needed for the forests and deserts.

4. A better social life in town. My gawd, a young person might even build an interesting love life. Compare that to the solitude and masturbation of camping in the forests and deserts, interrupted only occasionally by a tryst with a love-starved woodchuck.

5. Closer access to health care, charities, thrift stores, volunteer organizations. Compare this to being a thousand miles from the state where your Obamacare plan is located. You will have emergency room coverage, but that is it -- outside that state.

6. A chance for enduring friendships. Maybe a new friend in the parking lot might move down the road a couple miles. But you could still see them. Compare this to the useless "two ships crossing in the night" type of encounters that you have when you are "on the road."

 

[geogentry]

kaBLOOnie Boonster



1. I buy what I want when I go to town. And the idea of working for minimum wage in knee off those places is not appealing. Ben there, done that, not worth it.

2. Unless I plan on being a Road Warrior or needing to defend myself like Rambo why do I need such a machine again?

3. Currently I am sitting in a forest. 60 miles from a good size town. I have water and food, snacks and beverages to last 3 weeks. I drove down a major thoroughfare, a well maintained gravel road to arrive in the middle of a forest using a 15 year old car. My average mileage is 25 miles per gallon. What would I need with a monster truck?

4. Ahh, your a young person. Well soldiers and sailors have never had a problem with finding someone to be with. Pretty funny about the woodchuck though.

5. Veterans have VA medical wherever they are. Seniors have Medicare. You could join the military, wait to get old or spring for something like Blue Cross.

6. One does not have to meet physically with someone to become friends.

A. The cities are not going to give you a free ride in hopes your spending will offset their cost to do so. They still charge you rent.

B. Cities are starting to pass zoning codes to prevent communities of mini homes. They make money from property taxes. If your living in a mini house valued at $30k versus a full size house worth $250k they don't make much. If your living in a van worth even less they will make up the difference with rent.

C. You will spend far more on gas than the average nomad. Drive to work, drive home. Five to that new club hoping to connect. Driving to get your new significant other. And the list goes on.







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[Gypsy Freedom]

while living in some abandoned parking lot might sound easy and appealing to some. there is nothing as negative about the other options out there as you have inferred. we all have to walk our own path, as long as you/we are not hurting someone else in the process. what one views as a draw back or discomfort, others see as a blessing

 

[Kaylee]

Some of us (including me) just aren't city types, some are.
Diversity is good, and the foundation of this (still mostly) great country.
It's good to consider ways that all of us can be where we prefer.

I do feel there are entrepreneurial opportunities to make money off vehicle dwellers, while providing useful services to us, and the only way they'll come about is if we-the-targeted-users honestly discuss ideas, and distill out what's most likely to be workable & why.
You folks brought up some interesting points, in a civil discussion!


Totally non-serious mode:

For those that think they need to defend themselves while boondocking.  Personally, I think I would need it more in the cities.

Was it just me, or did any other Firefly fan see Brian's picture and "hear" the voice of Jayne Cobb (a Firefly TV series character) saying...
"Blow a new crater in this moon."


Yes, I know, I often "hear voices", but only of the crew of a certain imaginary Firefly class space freighter.