12V Refigerator Questions

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Spaceman Spiff

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I have a 110V / 12V Norcold DE-251D refrigerator in my camper. I am wanting to add solar this summer and as the frig will be my biggest load, I am trying to figure out how much current it will draw to size my house batteries. Frig at 12V is spec'd at 5.5 amps.

My question is, what duty cycle do I assume? 50%?, 30%? Right now it is too cold here (Minnesota) to test properly.

Second question, if I want to replace with a newer 12V refrig, what brands and models have you had good luck with? I will only be running the frig in 12V mode.

thanks, Spiff
 
I picked up this same fridge off craigslist for $100 bucks. It works ok, but I have to keep it on the lowest setting otherwise it cycles way too much. At the lowest setting it cycles about 30% but anything above the lowest setting it runs at 50%.

I can't say if this is normal or not, but it's what mine does. Keep in mind at the lowest setting it still keeps stuff cold but won't freeze anything solid. At colder settings it will freeze meat sold but then it cycles a lot.

I run the fridge on 2x 100w panels and use 2x type 31 deep cycles.
 
There are too many unknowns to pin down a duty cycle.

Ambient temps expected
Number of door openings and how often warm items are placed within.
The ventilation allowed to the condenser/compressor.

I had a Norcold DE 0040 for 5 years before it failed. It consumed 2.7 amps at 12.6v when running, and had a duty cycle of 25 to 30% on average in 75f ambients to keep sub 39f interior. I had added extra insulation and internal and external fans.

I now have a Vitrifrigo c51is that averages 20 to 25% duty cycle in the same conditions, but to keep sub 35f interior temps. Also extra insulation added, internal fan added, and I modified the cooling unit compartment for maximum ambient temp airflow across condenser/compressor and controller for maximum efficiency.

I've read that newer Norcolds have abandoned the Sawafuji compressor in favor of the Danfoss/ Secop that the Vitrifrigo uses. The Danfoss is much quieter in my experience, more efficient too.

Other front loading fridges using the danfoss/Secop are Dometic/ Waeco. Truckfridge, Novakool, Isotherm, and a few others.


More options exist in the Chest style fridges ARB, National Luna, among others I cannot remember right now.

For determining amp hour requirements and solar to refill the batteries, basically, it is hard to have too much solar, and far too easy to have too little.

How much solar can you fit on your roof? I'd size the battery bank off of that. 100 watts of solar per 100 amp hours of storage is a good middle of the road figure. More in cloud northern locations and less in sunny lower latitudes.

One wants the solar to have the batteries near the mid 14's by midday on a sunny day to have a reasonable chance of getting them up to a true 100% by sundown. It takes a long time to go from 90% to 100%. Hours.
Any solar is better than no solar but one should aim to have enough solar to take a battery bank from ~ 50% to a 95% daily on a good sunny day. It is better to get more than you think you need, than find out is it not enough and try to add more later, requiring heavier wiring and possible a bigger controller to handle it.

I've recently lowered my overall battery capacity to better reach the battery manufacturer recommended minimum bulk charging rate, and have had no issues taking the battery too low as of yet.

Just because a solar controller might go into float mode by noon, does not mean the battery is full. The cycling of the fridge might trip the float mode to occur prematurely. This happens when the compressor cycles off and the battery voltage shoots up above the acceptance voltage, and then the controller thinks the battery is full and reverts to float, but actually the battery might very well have needed another hour or 2 at 14.4+ volts.

I defeat this premature float mode by setting float voltage above acceptance voltage. I only lower the float voltage to 13.2 when I am not cycling the battery nightly.

Obviously I have a controller capable of different settings. Many controllers do not allow one to change acceptance or float voltages, and a cycling compressor fridge was not expected when they designed the controller.

I have 198 watts of solar on my roof.

My fridge consumes, this time of year, 16 to 20 amp hours per 24 hours, and my solar can return about 65 amp hours per day. Mid 70's days mid to low 60's nights. So I do not really stress the fridge. I fill it with food, defrost et every few months, and clean the dust off the fan and condenser a few times a year.
 
I forgot to mention, when my fridge cycles on, it's using 4.4 amps and I also wrapped it with extra insulation. Simply put, for the $100 I paid it gets the job done, but could be a bit more efficient.

In my next van build I'll probably go with a more modern truckfridge or a top loader.
 
David & SternWake,

Thank you for the information. It gives me enough to start figuring this out. I am new to solar, so i am on a steep learning curve right now. The frig will be my biggest current draw (laptop, phone, LED lights being the others). I have a 6.6' X 8.0' roof with a vent in the middle, so I should be able to mount 2 panels (affording it is a separate matter).

My other issue, since I am just starting this build, is if I should keep this old frig or bite the bullet and buy a newer, more efficient one. It doesn't make much sense to me to spent the time and effort to build the Norcold in if I am going to have to replace it in a year or two (or worse, it craps out back in the wild loaded with a supply of meat). Newer models seem to draw about half the current, so it is a trade-off between more solar and more efficiency.

If I go new, I will have to decide if a top opening frig's efficiency beats a front opening convenience. All the boating build I have looked at go with top loading frig and freezers, with some even building their own with 4"- 6" of insulation.

Thanks again for you help. I will be staring a build thread when it warms up here in Minnesota, so you will be able to follow my feeble attempts at solar, cabinet making, et. al.

--Spiff
 
bindi&us said:
I found one of these used for $80....

http://www.my12voltstore.com/P_95_Travel_Saver_p/p95.htm

Draws 4A. Wonder if I should get it till I can afford better for our upcoming van build (if the van deal materializes)??


It has no AC adapter and online they seen to be about $40.


`



Do not waste your time or money with a thermoelectric cooler.

They draw 4 amps at 100% duty cycle. 4 amps always, and they can only do 35f below ambient, so warm ambients mean unsafe food temps.



With danfoss bd35 compressors, the compressor speed is variable, from 2.2 amps to 6.5 amps. 2000 rpm to 3500 rpm, and anywhere in between.

The manufacturer decides which speed to run it at. The higher the compressor speed, the faster the cool down, the higher the amp draw, and the lesser the duty cycle. But the lowest compressor speed which maintains sub 39f and stays under a 50% duty cycle is most efficient.

My Vitrifrigo was set for 2500rpm. I removed the resistor to drop it to 2000 rpm.

Some chest style fridges automatically adjust the compressor speed, and one can decide to wire in a potentiometer to adjust the speed manually on other Danfosses. It is just a resistor inline on the thermostat circuit. I just removed mine for 2000 rpm.

The Fridge cabinet should be sized to allow extra insulation and slightly different dimension fridges. Make it wider to accommodate more insulation, make it rest on a moveable shelf so one can later adjust the height. I had to do some minor modification when I replaced the Norcold with the Vitrifrigo. Most important is letting the condenser breathe properly. This cannot be stressed enough if the goal is efficiency. A couple passive holes to let the heat out is not gonna cut it.

It needs to be able to draw in cool air from below. The Danfoss controller can handle powering .5 amps worth of fans. the fans that generally come with the fridge are 1/5th of that. I upgraded the fan to a quieter one which draws 0.05 amps, put it on the other side of the condenser and made a low tunnel so all the fans flow is concentrated through condenser, and it cannot recycle any preheated air. I've no need for an additional fan but having that option is one I like and can make one's install much easier.

Don;t just get any computer muffin fan. the technology on these fans can be impressive, or laughable.

Here is impressive:
http://www.noctua.at/pdf/infosheets/noctua_nf_f12_focused_flow_web.pdf

The quality of your install, the insulation and the ventilation will be a huge factor in overall battery consumption. Plan for some adjustability and look at dimensions of modern fridges you can replace that older model with and plan to be able to slide a modern fridge in with a few modifications, or perhaps none, if you plan far enough ahead.

The old Norcolds developed bad reputations (Never cold) because of improper installs where the condenser heat could not be dissipated properly. More recent designs force a minimum of ventilation into the design.

Another area is to keep the interior ambients as cool as possible, with exhaust fans, and reflectix in the windows that face the sun.

Also insulate the van body adjacent to the back of the fridge. I left an airspace here, but many layers of reflectix and a white body means no heat gets through to make the fridge work harder, or heats up the air lowing into the condenser.
 
Thanks SternWake...I always value your advice, tho often get confused by the numbers (math deficient)...but, the basic facts are always clear.

I appreciate the info and will look for a better value. I really need to keep costs down for now, but that also includes not having spoiled food.
 
I only have a 100 watt panel(does the job if there is a lot of sun), but I'm getting a lot more time between having to plug in since i added a timer. Fridge stays cold for a long time without power so i reduced how often it runs manually.
 
Spaceman Spiff said:
David & SternWake,

Thank you for the information. It gives me enough to start figuring this out. I am new to solar, so i am on a steep learning curve right now. The frig will be my biggest current draw (laptop, phone, LED lights being the others). I have a 6.6' X 8.0' roof with a vent in the middle, so I should be able to mount 2 panels (affording it is a separate matter).

My other issue, since I am just starting this build, is if I should keep this old frig or bite the bullet and buy a newer, more efficient one. It doesn't make much sense to me to spent the time and effort to build the Norcold in if I am going to have to replace it in a year or two (or worse, it craps out back in the wild loaded with a supply of meat). Newer models seem to draw about half the current, so it is a trade-off between more solar and more efficiency.

If I go new, I will have to decide if a top opening frig's efficiency beats a front opening convenience. All the boating build I have looked at go with top loading frig and freezers, with some even building their own with 4"- 6" of insulation.

Thanks again for you help. I will be staring a build thread when it warms up here in Minnesota, so you will be able to follow my feeble attempts at solar, cabinet making, et. al.

--Spiff

If the current fridge works then use it. I'd suggest a min of 200w of solar but 300 would be better. I get by on 200w but it's rough some times so the more the better.

It also depends where you are and how much direct sun you get each day. My house batteries are not hooked to my alternator, but it would add quite a bit more charging power if they were. I was sort of experimenting to see if I could go on soar alone, which so far I have.
 
David...I think its good to experiment and see how only solar works for you.
Its always easy to change up. In Tx you get good sun and I see no reason a vandweller with reasonable demands can't live on 200-300W of solar with good batteries.

I learned by the seat of my pants years ago when I salvaged a cracked panel. I had 2 old batteries and no charge controller, so I had to constantly meter (manually) and disconnect, float, and reconnect...repeat several times daily. Disconnect when clouds moved in and at night. By golly, I had a tiny 12V TV, radio, and light and was happy as a clam as long as I watched my usage.
So, I might not know all the math, but I dern sure know how to make what I have work for me :)
Now, I know what works for a motorhome too.
 
Spiff, Rome wasn't built in a day. All this stuff is expensive. I bought my batteries first. Then my panel and charge controller. I have 12v fridge; a Norcold out of a Volvo truck. It also has a freezer in it. I live in south Dakota right next door. My batteries hold up good with 270amp hours of storage. I have 160W 24V Sharps panel and mppt controller. I like Bobs advise of 1watt for every amp hour of storage. If my system were perfect it would have another 100w of panel. Otherwise I'm good. The 270 ah of battery handles my fridge good.
 
Update on the frig:

I finally got enough warm weather to do a half a$$ed stress test on it and it failed. Above 80°F ambient it will not hold the interior temperature under 40° (tried settings at 3, 4, & 5); but, it only runs 35% of the time. This is with it sitting on a bench with air freely circulating over the heat exchanger.

Refrigeration is not one of my areas of expertise, so I need some help.
• Why, when it is above set temperature, does the compressor not continue to run? Thermostat ohms out OK, circuit breaker is not tripped, compressor doesn't feel hot, don't find a thermal shutdown switch in schematic.
• What metric do I use to determine that a refrigerator is not worth spending money fixing? It is over 30 years old (only date(?) I could find on refrigerator is 82-12-01 stamped on the transformer).

I will be spending September & October in Utah and the winter wandering around the southwest, spending large blocks of time away from civilization, so I will need reliable refrigeration. I expect temperatures will get above 80° inside the camper in the sun.
-- Spiff
 
Try putting a ziplock baggie with some water on it in the freezer compartment.

See if that effects duty cycle.

There is likely a thermistor on the cold plate/ evaporator, if no heat load is placed in the fridge, perhaps this is getting cold enough and not allowing the compressor to continue.

The Compressor should be getting warm, but not hot.

And likely not an issue in this particular instance of testing, but "in free air" is not as effective as within 1.5 inches of a wall. The heat generated will cause convective currents to pull more air in across the condenser if the space behind it is limited.

If the ziplock baggie has no effect, then investigate the truckfridge. it will be more efficient than a 30+ year old Norcold.
 
Could be the thermostat but, then again, could be a lotta things. If you need reliable refrigeration, it might behoove ya to pick up a Waeco/Engle/Whynter/wutnot unit (new or a bit used). Personally, I'd go the chest style route, and have done so. ..Willy.
 
That fridge is old. Old fridge is usually bad fridge. The manufacturer does not have repair parts for that model. Don't waste too much money before getting something newer.
 
Make sure you have a load in the Fridge such as a gallon of water.....your thermometer should be halfway in the case not on the top shelf.....also look for Ice build-up on the evaporator(Cold plate).....Ice to one side is caused by low gas or a restriction in the Capillary tube(Dirty filter dryer or carbon)

also check to make sure the Thermostat bulb is affixed to the cold plate in the manf. position and there is no corrosion build up on it or between it and the plate.
 
Posted by Zil - Today 06:07 PM
That fridge is old.
Hey Zil, I resemble that remark. Frig is actually younger than I am.
I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I will need to replace it. I was doing my energy budget last night and the frig will consume < 46 amps/24hrs = ~170 watts of solar output/day; way too much.

Lucky Mike, thanks for the suggestions. I put a small container of water in the freezer today and it was frozen in ~ 6 hrs. Adding a gallon of water to the main compartment. The thermometer is hanging in as close to the center of the volume as I can get it. Frost evenly distributed on the cold plate & sensors seem to be in the factory position.

Tomorrow is supposed to get into the 80s, and the closed up camper in the sun should get significantly hotter; so I will reset the Kill-A-Watt and retest. -- Spiff
 
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