100% STEALTH

[GotSmart]

I am starting this thread as the title will attract posters that the original thread would not.

Danman 81

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]As per stealth, there's so much to talk about and probably would be best to start a new thread or join another thread or something like that, but I would like to go as much stealth as possible basically because stealth mean security and security means safety, so I am trying to maximize stealth if i can at all possible.  It's probably my #1 priority actually for my build.  I feel myself going out on a tangent now so I'll stop, but so much to talk about it!  The way I see it is, the less people who know I'm sleeping in my van the better.  For example, I am employed full time in a nice cushy job, and I would not want them to find out...  It takes away from the whole "keeping up with the Jones's" effect that we try so hard to portray.  It's funny because I'm criticized for "being a homeless person" when I probably make more money than the people saying I'm homeless in all fairness.  sorry need to start another thread lolol[/font]

1.  Do you see yourself as a van dweller as being "homeless" or do you just have a home on wheels?

2.  Does anyone see pressure from others to show mass consumption and "respectability"

3.  Is it really any of their business?

 

[GotSmart]

I for one see the whole stealth idea as a way of fooling yourself.  Any van dweller can drive around town and can tell where other dwellers are.  

I personally have many places where I can go to live.  My preference is in my van, but at this time I am in a apartment until I have some medical taken care of.  I am NOT homeless.  

If someone is bragging about excess consumption, I listen, (or pretend to,) and move on.  What I have or do with my money is none of their business.  Where or how I live is also my choice.  

I put on my suit, and walk into any place and get treated as  "NOB' because I know how to walk the walk and talk the talk.  Nobody knows how I got there, and they do not ask.

There are publicised examples of people doing this every day.  The guy living in a truck in the Google parking lot comes to mind.

 

[SoulRaven]

My observations over the years go like this:

If you live in a cargo van, you are perceived to be either homeless, a criminal, or both.

If you live in an RV with all the windows blocked, you are perceived as homeless.

If you live in a window van with all of the windows blocked, you are perceived as questionable at best.

If you live in an RV or a window van, and your windows appear to be normal, and nobody thinks you're trying to hide anything, then you are elevated to being a tourist, a traveler, or somebody's visiting relative. Unless you tell them otherwise, nobody will assume that you live in your vehicle full time.

Personally, I have never felt the need to hide, or worried about whether or not it was technically illegal for me to live the way I do in some city or another. If the cops don't like it, then they can ask me to move, but it is so very rare that it has never been an issue for me. On the flip side, the neighbors know exactly what I'm doing, and that I am no threat to them. I think by being open and up front with people/neighbors, it has solved the majority of any potential problems before they ever occurred. Many people dream of this lifestyle, and are both curious and envious of people who have actually succeeded at it. Instead of wishing to cause you trouble, they want to hear of your travels, or perhaps seek advice on how they could also become a fulltimer.

If people think you're a deadbeat, chances are you're not going to be accepted anywhere by anybody, except maybe a homeless camp, no matter what you're driving. If you look and act happy and successful, then that's the way you're likely to be treated in kind.

As a tourist, traveler, or fulltimer, you have achieved success in many people's eyes. You're living the dream...

 

[Almost There]

^
I disagree entirely with your first three observations about types of vehicles! Actually your last observation about how one acts being the key far, far outweighs any perception based on how/what one is driving.

And yes, I openly admit to living the dream...a couple of us regularly do reality checks when the biggest problem we have each day is whether we go to the hot springs now or wait until later!...

 

[mockturtle]

Gee, I block my windows with insulated foil to keep the sun out when it's hot.   :huh:

 

[danman81]

Good afternoon my friends!   This is probably a repost of some existing thread, but I tried to search and couldn't find anything exactly, so i decided to post!  If there's another thread, then please delete this thread, mods!  

Basically, I would like to make the case for stealth.  Personally, I would like make stealth the highest priority in my build design because stealth means security, which means safety, and if I'm not safe who knows what could happen.  I could get fined, I could get harassed by who knows, I could be attacked/mugged by some crazy person, or even lose my job if my employer found out.  To me, the less people that know, the better, but that's really a topic for another thread in terms of why stealth is important.  A lot of great people on this forum like @GetSmart and others have pointed out in my other forum posts that full 100% stealth is not achievable.   From a design standpoint, there are too many things that have to be thought out and it's not even fully possible, so what's the point?   

So, basically my question about stealth is, can full complete 100% stealth be achieved and specifically how from a technical perspective?   Here's my list so far:

1.  The obvious one, which is nothing sticking out the roof and sides like AC units -- this can be achieved with stand-alone portable AC units that are vented through the floor -- this would also be quieter than a standard roof AC since the AC unit is inside.  I would also like to use thin flexible flush mounted solar panels, but i've started another thread for that in the solar section because it seems like a whole other topic by itself!  I would even advise against side-mounted vents and externally-mounted shore power outlets.  Awnings are out of question -- maybe carry a portable awning that you can fit in a storage space.  Maybe the engine compartment would be an okay choice for a dust/water-proof shore-power outlet?  That way, if you are plugged in somewhere, it looks more like you are charging your main battery instead of a house bank?  And don't carry any trailers or bikes on a bike rack and stuff like that -- use a folding bike.

2.  Light leakage -- this can be solved by using a windowless white cargo van and a partition behind the front seats.  The viewing holes in the partition should be covered with something like a magnetic sheet using a steel partition.  The areas around the partition should also be covered with something.  Any screw holes in the partition should also be covered.  

3.  I would vote against using commercial logos and official looking signs/wraps and things like that because one, it makes you stand out in a way and makes you more easily recognizable if someone sees you at the same place on different days, and i think it makes you look weird/suspicious by having to get out and attach a magnetic sign to the side for "Joe's plumber".  The police could easily see you doing that and then start questioning you about it.   I'll leave the discussion about how to deal with the police out of this thread for now, but I do think honesty is the best policy if you ever questioned.  

4.  Noise leakage -- I think using sound absorbing materials when you insulate your van is important for this reason.  There are lots of great products used to provide sound dampening for car stereo systems that I won't go into, but a lot of these consist of rubber-type materials like butyl and peal and stick directly to the walls/floor/ceiling/doors.  Headphones should also be in order and I would not install any speakers.  I like to wrestle my Chihuahua so I'll probably have to refrain as much as I can.  Additional layers within the insulation can also be used like mass loaded vinyl (which are used for industrial blankets placed around loud machinery, and recording studios).  In addition, there are many types of thermal insulation that also act as sound dampeners like thinsulate.  There are also high-tech products like Green Glue that are made for absorbing sound as an adhesive.  There are also sealants that absorb vibration like silicone sealant and also rubber sealing sprays like Flex Seal.  

5.  Ventilation -- Same as #1, but any ventilation holes would have to go through the floor.  Any fans used should be quiet, like some computer case fans. 

6.  Parking to sleep -- When I park, I would not get out and walk though the door in the partition and go to sleep immediately.  Stuff like taking a shower or walking your dog should be done before you get there.  I think it would look weird to get in a van and then not drive away, as opposed to arriving somewhere and not getting out immediately -- might be my own opinion but maybe someone could verify?  Also, only park next to other commercial vehicles overnight.  Park next to a big light if you can -- it's safer, looks less suspicious, and you can charge your solar panels a little tiny bit.  Don't hide in the dark -- hide in plain sight. 

7.  How you dress -- Probably the single most important thing.  Don't look weird.  Don't wear a large black north face jacket with a black hood.  Don't overdress, or dress up too much, either -- You might want to wear something that looks like something you could wear for work, like a corporate shirt or construction clothes, but not a pimp or a rich drug dealer obviously.   Shave, look clean and shower twice a day if you can since you are out and about outside all day anyway.  Whether or not you like it, you will be profiled based on your appearance and people who look respectable are more respected than people who don't -- and not just by the police but old grandmas too.  

8.  Everything visible completely stock -- Police are on the look-out for any aftermarket parts.  Aftermarket parts are associated with drug dealers as and are targeted not just on vans but all cars.  Even something seemingly small like dice hanging from your mirrior -- I think would look out of place.  I also would not upgrade any visible components even at the factory, like "exterior upgrade packages", or navigation screens, or the stereo system, leather seats, stuff like that.  The notion of thinking is that people who drive commercial vehicles would not have the budget to upgrade anything unless that is if you're a drug dealer.  

9.  Messily litter the top of the dash with papers, a clip board, forms, and other commercial-type stuff and don't store "life" stuff on the drivers side or the center area.  Keep business cards that you can give to people you meet.  I would even go as far as to say to keep a construction hat or safety vest with you visible from the front.  I might also opt for mounting a dashcam (which is common nowadays) because it can help deter people from harassing you.  I was thinking of mounting a camera in the upper corner close to the seat belt and pointing it out the driver side window, not even to have on, but to be visible so people don't mess with you.  

10.  Stay in urban areas as much as possible.  It's very easy to blend in when there are many others like you.  Old grandmas live in rural areas and they love calling the cops on people who aren't doing anything wrong, she "just knows your'e up to no good, ol sonny boy", and the police have a responsibility and duty to respond.  I wouldn't mind going camping in the woods once in a while or to the beach and stuff, but for general living, I think urban areas are the safest.  

Remember, there are lots of good people out there, but it only takes one to ruin your day.  This might seem like a lot of things to some people, but if I'm able to achieve 100% stealth, then I'm willing to design everything from the ground-up with stealth as the first priority.  Thanks and love you guys!!  I love this forum!!   Stay safe everyone!  :heart:

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Whew...That much worry would wear me out.

 

[GotSmart]

You are thinking too much!

1.  Roof vents are standard things on many vans.  They are critical in keeping electronic equipment cool if you do not have a expensive AC system.  Roof racks are basic on many tradsmans vans.  They are items that do not stand out.  

2.  Good points.

3.  Personally, I agree.  Others have found this effective.  

4.  With the proper location, some noise will not matter.  Headphones or ear buds are a good idea.  

5.  Roof vent as I do not trust pulling my fresh air off the ground.  One yahoo with a smoking junker will ruin your air supply. 

6.  http://www.cheaprvliving.com/boondocking-stealth-parking/where-to-stealth-park/

7.  Shower twice a day?   :huh:  That will definitely make you stand out.  (Also not healthy!) You want to blend in.  Nothing stands out more than someone who glows.  

8.  Drug dealers would never drive a cargo van. They are not cool enough.     People who drive new vans can afford to upgrade, but do not go bling crazy.

9.  Keep it clean.  Litter catches the eye.  Do not show anything that can be tempting.  A clipboard or invoice book can hold receipts.   

10.  http://www.cheaprvliving.com/boondocking-stealth-parking/where-to-stealth-park/

 

[SoulRaven]

You aren't the first person to prioritize ventilation through the floor. I think you'd like this and this, blog posts by a private investigator on his ventilation solutions to keep cool. The blog in general is a pretty awesome read if you're super into stealth...I was more worried about stealth when I first started out and have begun mellowing out a bit since.

That said, rain guards on the windows can also permit cracking them open to allow some stealthy ventilation. I'm in a minivan, and when my bf got his minivan I went nuts when I saw how his sunroof can open. That's 'stealth' ceiling ventilation right there! It's in the front, though. I've since learned there's a version of Sienna minivans that comes standard with a dual moonroof--one in front, one in back--or of course you could always add one aftermarket. But if you want everything stock, well, that'd be it. My ability to stealthy crack down my side windows in the back is a small saving grace in the summer, but definitely not enough to be anywhere near comfy.

Flush mounted solar panels would still be seen from above, e.g. when parked at apartment overflow parking. But don't let that stop you if you want them!

1.  ... And don't carry any trailers or bikes on a bike rack and stuff like that -- use a folding bike.

Sounds like you're approaching this from a strictly work van image perspective, which is certainly one possible way to go. In my area though a bike rack with or without bikes on it is very, very common about 8 months out of the year. It isn't on cargo vans, but minivans exactly like the one I'm in? Yup. Same with rooftop cargo carriers and boxes, for that matter.

9.  I would even go as far as to say to keep a construction hat or safety vest with you visible from the front. 

I highly recommend safety vests as part of standard vehicle emergency equipment, whether or not you flaunt the fact that you have one for 'stealth'. With my old van's super old tires, I experienced three blow-outs on the freeway, two of which were at night with very little shoulder before a concrete barrier. Each time being outside of the vehicle while checking it out or communicating with the tow truck driver I was acutely aware of how much safer I'd be if everyone whizzing by could see me.

I've mentioned elsewhere that in my preferred places to park within Seattle, which is generally apartment overflow, anything larger that a minivan stands out by its very nature of being larger than a minivan. I don't know how unique this is to my area, but if your dream stealth white cargo van came to my areas it would definitely stand out and people would notice. There aren't a lot of commercial vehicles to park next to, and those that exist either move a lot because parking in Seattle is super precious, or they're one of the few parked in residential neighborhoods where everyone knows them.  This was a major factor in my switching to a minivan, and as mentioned in another thread I haven't had any break in attempts since the switch, whereas before I had several.

The most stealthy set-up I've ever noticed is a converted 'VanPool" van parked amongst a fleet of other VanPool vans in a dark corner of a parking lot. The darkness actually made it more difficult to check for silhouettes through the windows. The only thing that gave it away was they were playing music, and then I did a window check and after a good 5 minutes of looking I identified the van. To me, aside from the music, this is an example of "super stealth". Which yeah, you can do, if you know that you'd enjoy living that way. I think it's a potentially smart approach, but wouldn't fit in the places I enjoy parking.

7.  How you dress -- Probably the single most important thing.  Don't look weird.  ...  Whether or not you like it, you will be profiled based on your appearance and people who look respectable are more respected than people who don't...

For me, this is simply not possible. A medical condition requires that I wear a chemical cartridge respirator unless the air is unusually clean with no people around. Most of the time I also require hiking poles to walk. I also must carry various medications, medical equipment (e.g. ear thermometer), hand soap (standard stuff causes severe issues), snacks and my own water with me at all times, and an option to carry stuff since my hands are occupied with the hiking poles, so I have a small EDC backpack that's always with me like a purse and can be spotted traversing the sidewalks with poles in full use, a reusable shopping bag hanging from one or both arms, backpack, gas mask, and in summertime I've often got sunglasses stacked on top of that.

I'm not comfortable with it either, but life gave me no choice so....I go for it anyway. Yeah it can suck to be so recognizable. It can also be a positive thing if you're super nice to everyone and earn a positive reputation. I helped out a woman with a flat tire once and she raved about it to everyone around. I'm sure some people don't respect me due to my appearance, and honestly, it's their loss. I'm a pretty community oriented type of person and I simply choose to surround myself with those who can see past the mask and ignore those who can't.

I think this is the crux of the reason many here feel "100%" stealth is either unachievable or unlivable. It isn't because it cannot be done in theory, but rather because in practice all it takes is one little thing--out of hundreds if not thousands of decisions we make about our vandwelling setup--one thing to compromise the 100% stealth, and then once that is gone a fair bit of the other stuff seems a bit silly to maintain.

Best of luck to you!

 

[highdesertranger]

ok, I myself believe 100% stealth is unattainable. anybody like police, parking lot security, people living where you park, etc, know you are sleeping in your van.
while it looks funny if you get out of the driver seat and climb in the back, it also looks funny if park and never get out.
after market accessories don't make the cops think you are a drug dealer, unless you install drug dealer type of accessories.
I will admit I don't try to stealth in urban areas. I stay mainly in rural areas, I talk to the little old ladies that you point out. I have never been hassled by the police in rural areas. I have been offered pies and jams by the little old ladies. If I have to overnight in a city I do it where it's legal and don't try to hide. I believe just the fact that you are hiding raises more suspicion then all the things you listed. highdesertranger

 

[highdesertranger]

I feel the only one your fooling with stealth is yourself. highdesertranger

 

[bobbert]

..." This was a major factor in my switching to a minivan, and as mentioned in another thread I haven't had any break in attempts since the switch, whereas before I had several..."

I agree, Bitty... 
To this date, ever since I got this nice little mini-van, I've NEVER been hassled. 
Even when sleeping in truck stops.
I do feel that with my homemade blackout window curtains, it helps tremendously. 


Ignore my bike; I couldn't find a better pic of my fossil fuel carbon-producing rig-

 

[SoulRaven]

^
I disagree entirely with your first three observations about types of vehicles! Actually your last observation about how one acts being the key far, far outweighs any perception based on how/what one is driving.

And yes, I openly admit to living the dream...a couple of us regularly do reality checks when the biggest problem we have each day is whether we go to the hot springs now or wait until later!...

People tend to make assumptions based on your vehicle BEFORE they know anything else about you.

People trying to hide, gives other people an uneasy feeling.

 

[ascii_man]

My observations over the years go like this:

If you live in a cargo van, you are perceived to be either homeless, a criminal, or both.

If you live in an RV with all the windows blocked, you are perceived as homeless.

If you live in a window van with all of the windows blocked, you are perceived as questionable at best.

If you live in an RV or a window van, and your windows appear to be normal,

I have been influenced by your writings, but this is a little confusing. Don't you draw your shades overnight or block the sun during the heat? I'm not really "trying to hide" as much as I sleep better in the dark, and I would prefer to not have my sleep interrupted by LEOs. I'll be purchasing a conversion van, which have had blinds / drapes since time immemorial.

 

[mockturtle]

IMHO, 'security' and 'staying in urban areas' seem contradictory.  I also believe stealth camping is a fantasy.  I can spot a van or car dweller a mile away and I'm sure most LEOs can, too.

 

[buckwilk]

I have found peoples perception of me are more about them than me. I change very little day to day. I don't have any reason to hide or "stealth" my way through my life. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm a valid member of this society. I contribute in ways most "regular" folks don't. I volunteer, I'm active in community events. I spend my dollars just like someone in a s&b's does. I refuse to be shamed into thinking that my life's circumstances should push me into the shadows. I have found that anyone who doesn't want to associate or recognize me as a person deserves neither my respect or my time.

 

[buckwilk]

Stealth is mind fantasy. The idea that living in a certain way is wrong, is wrong. I understand that resorting to living in a van is uncomfortable for some. For others it isn't resorting, it's a choice made purposefully. I would suggest rather than trying to hide your life, you let it blossom. Share your experience without shame or embarrassment. The idea that people who live in alternative situations are somehow different than everyone else is false. Where you sleep is not the measure of you as a person.

 

[akrvbob]

Having actually lived stealth for 6 years I'm in favor of being as stealthy as you can be. Whether it's 83% or 100% seems like a silly discussion to me. Being stealthy doesn't have to be hard or nerve-wracking, it just becomes a habit like any other habit.

Just because there are people who will see through it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. If you avoid a few problems year by being stealthy I think it's well worth it.

It was to me, I was as stealthy as possible and had very few problems. Since I 100% boondock now I don't give it thought but if I were going to live in a city again I would be as stealthy as possible. It costs me nothing and I have a lot to gain.
Bob

 

[One Awesome Inch]

I am stealth as much as is *reasonable* but ultimately dont go overkill. Havent had a problem in 7 months.

One tip is to make sure your windshield doesnt fog up. Thats a dead giveaway.

 

[Willy]

One thing I like about my stepvan is that it just screams COMMERCIAL. Got a 3way ladder secured to the back and it looks a bit battered.. just like a work truck being seriously used. ..Willy.