How I Became a Vagabond

It wasn't really a choice at first, at least I didn't really consciously intend for it to happen; really didn't even know it was happening. I just wanted to explore stuff and because I was just damn curious about everything I encountered; becoming a vagabond i suppose was really the only end result............

It started along long time ago when I was about 9 or 10 I guess. That was when as I recollect, I gave up on ever being part of any kind of 'family'; when I decided that if no parents were ever going to care about me, that I would give a damn about myself and just go 'Live Life'; yeah, I was about 9 or 10 when I knew that no one else's words would ever be able to chain me.

I grew up in foster homes and was never adopted, while always aware of my parents, the one was unable to care for me and the other chose not to. Today, I'm living proof that parents are totally overrated - its probably the only thing that I agree with Rousseau about. haha. I started running away when I was , as I wrote, about 9 or 10. It wasn't because the foster places were bad perse', it was just they were to damn boring, to confining, to rigid, to structured and there was nothing about them that spoke anything to my mind or heart about what ever was out there in that World, the stars, the Earth - The Curiosity I had about Life!  

So off & away I went not realizing at such a young age that I was becoming what I am - a Vagabond. I went to the beach, the water, the sky & horizon all of it and I was solitarily enjoying all of it BUT It wasn't too long tho and I experienced my first encounter with the police. lol I ran like hell too because they looked so huge to me - with the uniforms and shiny leather with guns & cuffs and all that other stuff they were going to use to tie me up! haha - yeah I ran like hell all 10 years old scared shitless of me. I ran thru mud puddles and around trees everything so they wouldn't get me and I can still see them chuckling, laughing at this little 10 year old thinking that I was going to get away. 

I gave a good effort too but back I went. This pattern repeated itself many times over the years. 'He's gone again'. 
"We'll keep an eye out for him when we're patrolling the beaches."; the police probably responded. I always went to the beach. Loved it there; and yes they always found me, captured me again and back too the 'pound' I went like the stray dog I was becoming; was turning into. 

By the time I was 14, tho, I had it down. Practice makes perfect and they didn't catch me all summer. Lived under picnic tables, bridges, college kid beach apartments, etc. Anywhere & everywhere I could be free and just experience and discover Life. Till summer was over and it was time to return to school......... Part 1; need a break and then I will continue with Part 2

Thanx..............INTJohn

Yes, School. You probably think a Vagabond would hate school but I loved learning, Science Astronomy, Math, History, Earth Science I loved all of it and read all I could. In high school when i skipped classes there were times I went to the library where I could read books that were actually interesting instead of the rote clerical oriented 'education' of the school systems.

(This was before the internet too; gawd today I never would go back. The internet is the best to search study discover stuff all over the World NOW! - No I would be gone! haha)

Eventually I made it out of High school and at 18 I enlisted in the military where I served for years as Special Forces Combat Medic Rescue & Intelligence Specialist: been thru 2 wars, 23 countries, 4 continents; in a variety of settings scenes & cultures having seen and or experienced both the best & the worst of Humanity. Been blown out of the sky in 2 helicopters, shot twice, stabbed once and damn near blown to bits by a hand grenade.

I spent 2 and a half years in war zones where I served with several differing indigenous tribes. As a Medic I was the closest thing to a Dr and I treated them for sickness & disease, inoculated them, aided their women in birth, treated them for burns, gunshot & shrapnel wounds. I ate with them, slept with them, fought with them and some of them died for me.........
Eventually, I was given the great honor to be adopted into their Tribe; to be as one of them. Today it remains as one of the truly happiest days of my life. I felt that I had a family, that I was exactly where I belonged, doing exactly what I should be doing and I could have stayed with them forever..........

Eventually, tho, I was ordered back to the States and was bluntly told that I had gone Native; that I looked bad and was reminded that I was a professional soldier in the employ of the United States of America and the Taxpayers thereof and that I should take a look at where my duties & responsibilities lie. When we pulled out the enemy moved in; overran the villages, tribes & peoples I had become a part of. Everyone back here in The States was living The Good Life - I was devastated - they had become much more to me than a Duty Station and I had grown to love them.

Now these events that are so ghastly to most Americans who have never known Combat, have for me been a great Gift:
War taught me more about Life than it ever did Death, it taught me more about courage & sacrifice than it ever did selfishness & cowardice; it taught me more about kindness than it ever did meanness and taught me way way more about Love than it ever did Hate. For a brash, very very tough young man these were lessons not learned easily nor without great discomfort but they are for me today an experience for which I am profoundly grateful.

Eventually I moved on built a great life and I owe most of it, maybe all of it, to a Tribe of Little People in a far off surreal land a long long time ago who taught me what it means to be a Human Being.  

I need another break and then Part 3.................INTJohn

Very moving! I think you may have a book inside you waiting to be written.

Yes, I moved on – finished my education – my degrees are in Mathematics and Geodetic Engineering - though I will always be a Philosopher; obtained my licensure as a Land Surveyor/Geodetic Engineer; built a business and built a life – all of it from scratch and by design envisioned from my teenage years. Today I think it’s a very good one and I don’t know anyone on a personal level whose overall quality of life I would consider better than my own: Educationally, Professionally, Materialistically, Financially, Health – emotional, mental, physical; Life’s achievements, world travels and experiences – all of it.

Was married once; been divorced for almost 20 years. Had an amicable and benevolent divorce –not a “war” that so many seem to have as my x and I are both emotionally mature/stable persons. We made a good team in a functionally utilitarian way, but we grew apart intellectually, philosophically and intimately. While I don’t have very much contact with her anymore, I consider her a friend and I suppose we are more like a brother and sister today in that regard.  

We have a daughter; who is a phenomenal young woman in her own right. She has her degrees in Molecular Biology/Genetics as well as Philosophy and she has just finished medical school and will begin her Residency as an Oncologist soon in. She speex 3 languages and while in high school was an exchange student to both Germany and Peru. She is also an internationally award winning artist having had some of her paintings and water colors on display here in the States as well as Toronto & Montreal.

Professionally, As a Land Surveyor/Geodetic Engineer, I survey predominately larger acreage wilderness tracts, recreational properties & hunting club lands; generally in remote areas. I have no staff- perform all the work myself - its hard, tough, very physically demanding & mentally challenging work that keeps me in tip top physical shape as well as far from “civilization”. In my life I’ve seen little that is civilized about it. Also, I never wanted to be one of the “worker bees/ants” that comprise most of the urban/suburban based American “Rat Race” Society and I accomplished that goal.  

My office is in my home. I have a great core clientele and up until the latest economic slide was able to pick and choose my jobs. April thru June is my busiest time of year; July & August slows down and then I revert back to that teenage runaway as a Lake Michigan 'beach bum';

The Fall is my second busiest time of year and by Thanxgiving Day I get out of Michigan - someplace warm & sunny not too far from a Beach; I return to Mish 1st of April then I gear up for the spring rush and the cycle repeats itself. My year - inna nutshell. Also, while I enjoy my profession, it hardly defines me. It is simply a very complementary way to provide the financial support to enjoy my Natural Pantheistic philosophical lifestyle.

For 25 years I lived on 40 wooded acres of land about 45 miles Northwest of Grand Rapids, Michigan and about 15 miles from Lake Michigan on the edge of the Manistee National Forest. My house was a modest but nice Cape Cod style – built it myself - on a hill that bisects and runs the entire length of the property with a 25 foot wide creek way in the back. 

I wake to no alarm, punch no clock – times, dates, appointments, calendars are all but meaningless to me – no car horns, truck engines or sirens- just the wildlife around me and the glimpse of their lives they inadvertently share with me. It is my Thoreauvian & Natural Pantheistic piece of heaven.

A very brief overview of my vagabond life and lifestyle.........

Time for more coffee & then Part 4..................INTJohn

Yeah; Life & Lifestyle. So a few years back I decided it was time to just get rid of all the materialistic crap that the decadent American Culture drives everyone to accumulate:
House, land, sportscars, boats you name it I owned it.

Sold it all or gave it away & kept the basics & my suburban as I need a work truck: My Life & Lifestyle. Beach, Wilderness, Forest, Desert, Mountains. I have remained faithful to the Earth.

I now live in my Shockwave Toyhauler - I don't have any 'toys' to haul I just like the roominess & toughness of the rig; and I bought a new pik up to tow it. Store the now 20 year old 'Burb' during winter at a friend's place in Michigan.

My 'Loop of Life' starts at the Lake Michigan Beach;
then I travel to Wilmington NC area and hang a little at Wrightsville Beach;
then its the Florida Panhandle around Destin/ PCB area;
then its on to Magnolia Beach - near Port Lavaca, TX;
then the SE Ca desert Holtville BLM LTVA where I enjoy most of the winter heading either to San Diego Beaches (mostly Ocean Beach); Mexico; or North To Salton Sea - the Salton Sea & Me ROX!! and I love Bombay Beach......... I'll head back to Mish in about a month. So much for 'Logistics' haha

But Life is more than simple Logistics - isn't it? Every choice human being, rather strives for some citadel of Secrecy where they may be saved from The Crowd, The Many, The Great Majority; The Mass, The Herd, where I can forget people who are The Rule because I have become; because I am The Exception.

Anyone who must deal with Humanity that doesn't sometimes reflect a rainbow color of distress, green & gray with disgust, satiety, sympathy, gloominess & even loneliness, is certainly not a Person of an elevated taste; wondering maybe why at times he doesn't take all of this burden & disgust upon himself voluntarily; but that he continually strives to avoid it; and thus he remains quietly & proudly within His Citadel?

One thing is for sure; such a man was never predestined for Knowledge. If he were he would belive in The Devil to remove any Good Taste thinking that Humanity as The Rule would somehow be more interesting than The Exception - myself!; an exception - and I would need to; as I do need to go down into my own head & heart; above all else I must go 'inside'.

To smell the aroma of Humanity, then, is characterized by the stench of which I am able to percieve their 'entrails' - a physiological odor. This sensitivity gives me my psychological antennae with which I am able to perceive a persons every secret and the Dirt that lies at the bottom of most of Humanity. If my observation hasn't lead in error such persons offend my very sense of cleanliness and if they are able to also sense the reserve of my disgust  - well it certainly doesn't make them smell any better to me at all.........

My humanity has become a continual overcoming of the species of which I'm apart - But I need Solitude!; a respite, a recovery, a return to myself, to breath a fresh air - a light, playful and above all else Free fresh air. This Solitude is more than just my friend it is my essence: I've never suffered from Solitude; I've only suffered from Multitudes! 

Thus I repeat - I need Solitude! a recovery from The Masses of Humanity.

uhhh...more coffee and then Part 5...............INTJohn

At this point it may be best to put a hold on anymore verbage and let 1 picture tell a thousand words:

I used to live in South Haven, Mi and I know the felling of "the lake".

Allen

Yeah; the Masses of Humanity - seeing as before long Humanity must confront itself with the most difficult demand ever made of it, it seems expedient to say 'who I really am'. Really if you've made it this far thru my long & windy diatribe you should already know it as I've not left myself at al 'without testimony'. HAH!

At this point the answer to "How I Became A Vagabond" can no longer be avoided; but first just so we're all on the same page; a definition:

Vagabond -
noun; a person who wanders  from place to place having no home or job.
adj. ;  having no settled home

It should be obvious then , at least in my case, 'Vagabond' has never been a process of development but rather a State of Existence. I never 'became' one; I was born one. Yes I was born a Vagabond. I didn't become one.

Hence, Rather, I had to discover that I was one by deconstructing all of the bullshit that American Culture & Society - all of Western Civilization - had spent years brainwashing, poisoning my mind with to their warped if not psychologically diseased philosophies........

As Tolkien wrote - 'All who wander are not Lost'

Vagabond - having 'no job'. Lets talk about this aspect of who the Vagabond is along with those who praise the Virtues of Work. Here in Western Civilization of course this is traced back to the Apostles Paul's ridiculous if not asinine 'Christian Work Ethic': "If a man doesn't Work, neither should he eat."
Behind this glorification of 'work'; having 'a job' then; along with the tireless talk of 'the blessings of work' I find the same thought process behind the praise of impersonal activity for the public benefit: the fear of everything Individual.

At the bottom then here is a Culture that one now feels when confronted with work - which basically means a relentless industry from early till late 5 days a week; measured times & numerically calendered events - that such work is actually the best form of Police, that it keeps everybody in harness like indentured servants, domesticated animals, beasts of burden......

........and powerfully obstructs the individuals capacity of Reason, of covetousness, of the desire for Independence as a Chosen Lifestyle. For it uses up all of the tremendous energy needed for reflection, brooding, meditating,dreaming, love, a capacity for concern. It sets before itself (work) small goals of hedonistic drama and permits these empty mindless seeking sensations.

In such a way members of American Society continually 'work hard' and who do this will have 'security'; and this 'financial security' is now the Supreme American Goddess. But then here comes The Vagabond - horror of Horrors!! Dangerous persons who think and live for themselves.

The Vagabond then is the danger of all dangers in America: The Individual.

INTJohn

"Mama always said life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

Yeah, the Individual as Vagabond.
If one has discovered their own Why of Life, I think, then they can get along with almost any How; as long as one doesn't fall into the trap of striving for 'Happiness' as is so common here in American Culture.

Independence then is for the very few; a privilege of the strong. Whoever attempts it even with the best of intentions but without an inner constraint proves they are probably not only strong  but perhaps even recklessly daring.
The independent Vagabond enters into a maze, a labyrinth and multiplies a thousand times the dangers which life brings with it; not the least of which is that no one will be able to see or to help when the Vagabond loses his way, becomes lonely, perhaps even torn apart by some demon of conscience. Imagine someone living like this, that they should experience some grief; this will happen so far from the comprehension of others that they will neither feel it, see it , or sympathize. And the Vagabond will never be able to go back - cannot go back any longer. Nor will he be able to see past the walls of the maze with which he's chosen to live.

Aristotle wrote; "For a man to live alone in the wilderness, apart from civilization; such a man must be either a Beast or a God".
Nietzsche countered that Aristotle failed to see a third possibility: " That such a man could be both!
Yes, Both - I look upon my future then as a positive event as I would upon calm seas and there is not the least of desire. I don't care that anything should become different and I myself don't want to be different. Even when young I never strove for any supposed goal of American 'Happiness':
The healthy Vagabond then is easily known by the fact of his avoidance of several grand, loud & glittering things: fame, prestige, politicians, honors, money & women. Tho thats not to say that all of those things do not come to him.

He hides himself from any bright light and shuns his era, his culture - the way of life that society tries to force upon him.  He endures some dependence as one must the darkness after sunset and he always lives his life embracing his unprotected isolation like an abandoned forest that only bad weather vents itself upon.........
His instinct that grows within him directs him toward situations in which he is releived of the necessity of thinking only of himself. Ultimately he requires little with which to live and he embraces a motto of "He who possesses is possessed"; and he takes pride in his contentment & simplicity. He becomes concerned with but one thing alone and he expends all of his energy, time, love, interest all for that one simple thing.

This kind of man does not like to be disturbed with enmity, drama, strife or emotional turmoil, nor friendship; he easily forgets and will always think it in bad taste to suffer contemptuousness for Humanity. When he does speak aloud he'll use big words sparingly or maybe simply give a nod of the head.

He must learn to overcome his time with himself, to become 'timeless' and then he will find an easiness of living not only with time but also Truth................INTJohn

Salt Creek Campground - Salton Sea

Well, I must admit I feel like I'm reading a novel about a cynical protagonist. I feel sad, angry, scared, concerned, and even empathy while reading your posts. 

Why such a small loop in America? You seem more like a world vagabond/nomad/traveler. 

Ever think of sailing the oceans? Many people sailing/cruising with the same mind set as you.

Oh man did I get drunk last nite. Even for my standards. But the gin & tonik which really wasn't gin & tonik had a special appeal to my tatse buds. Every once inawhile I stumble into 2 litre bottles of ginger ale for 89 cents vs my usual 2 litre deals of tonik for 98 cents so then I splurge on gin & ginger; so I'm on a gin & ginger diet til further notice. haha

Also all that stuff I wrote last weekend here I actually planned to write it over a 3 maybe 4 week interval but didn't the weather just SUCK! last weekend here in the desert and so I was stuck in The Box with really nothing to do for about 60 hours but start writing and use up a weex rations of tonik (hence I delightfully found the ginger ale deal tho) in 1 weekend. Oh well (I haz a sad)

I see I've left off with Truth but I'm not sure I'm ready to take off down that trail yet. I'm sort of more interested in Lies but then hell its sorta really hard to have one without the other, isn't it? Even then sheeeesh! Mathematically speaking its difficult to not believe that 2 + 2 = 4 although I'm still finding it difficult to start relying on computations; to get my head wraped around double or gawd forbid triple intgrals that have complex numbers utilizing imaginary numbers either as an upper limit or a lower limit. Finding them as lower limts probably wouldn't be such a trip if I would look at them sober but man! when I see one of thoze little italized i's somewhere as an upper limit; well that really fuks my brain up........

On the other hand does it really have to be so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up to believe; and here I'm speakinig releative to that which has become acceptable as Truth or aS Lie? This is my problem then; not with myself mind you but the fact that I've wandered thru Life, solitary, not only wonderring How in the hell did I get stuck on this planet with People; but that I'm also in their fuking form!?

Anyway, I don't think my head is completely full yet and it doesn't hurt either so I really don't have a need to write about Truth yet, or Lie. Nope not enough thought yet to need to get rid of it in some written manner. I mean hell what is considered true by ones family or circle of friends or many good & honest people is a sense of what really comforts, edifys & elevates Humanity (should I punctuate this as a statement or a an inquiry?) ok I'll leave it unpunctuated - what else can I do?? I don't have an answer........

Is it more difficult then to strike off on a new path?
Fighting the habits of Law or tradition?
Experiencing the insecurities of independence?
The wavering of one's feelings, thoughts & ideas?
Even my own conscience?

To proceed then without any consolation down solitary and unexplored ideas & concepts within my own mind & heart having some lasting goal of what is true if not beautiful & good? Is there then really some respite in Truth? Is it really peace, rest or pleasure that one hopes to find or attain by such a journey?

Truth is often abhorrent, ugly & painful and a faith can never support any proof of its existence; rather Truth stands on its own with or with out you or your faith, impersonal, as a mirage distant in the sunlight wavering & flickering only to become a farther distance the closer you think you are getting to it.

And this is where the paths & roads of people will always part - if you want to have peace of mind; if you want to have peace of heart; if you desire those pleasures of stimulation and comfort then its very necessary for you to believe and embrace that which you have been brought up on.....

But if you wish to be devoted to Reality then you must inquire & seek and its discovery will often be of an unspeakable ghastliness becoming a monster.

"If you want to fight with Monsters then beware that you yourself do not become one; for If you stare into the Abyss long enough, The Abyss will stare back into you." Freidrich Nietzsche

INTJohn

INTJohn said:

At this point it may be best to put a hold on anymore verbage and let 1 picture tell a thousand words:

Click to expand...

Duck Lake?

So now this is about the Monsters of Truth.  
Well before I list each one of them, for there are many of them and I've had to engage singley in 'mortal combat' with each of them & there is only one of me. I should elaborate a little, I guess about what the warfare is all about as its a burden that I can no longer carry and neither can I throw it off my back. Keeping aware that I don't want to become a Monster of Truth myself........

Where in the hell does this desire for Truth by Humanity come from? We don't even know what Truth is yet we have this desire for it. Like a hunger - a desire for something to eat yet we don't know what or where the food is. It has some value to the Human animal as it relates to itself and others; a peace pact, a Treaty of Handshake, a sense of comfort & ease. Form there it can be recognised as a first step to this mystic desire, urge for Truth that can only be  communicated symbolically linguistically as a legislation leading to the first Laws of Truth. From here one can see too that now is discovered the contrast between Truth & Lie.

The liar gives a false communication, a deception by some reversal to what is perceived as true. When this is done in a self- serving manner that hurts, damages someone else or many, Society will no longer trust that person &  begin to exclude them. Society then does not really have anything against the Lie perse' but rather the damage, the hurt, the pain that it has inflicted......
So Society, Humanity, wants The Truth for its comfort & security & peace ...........

But it is in the exact same manner that the communication of Truth & the communicator of Truth is often received and treated by Society, too; becuase Truth is often abhorrent, painful  and damaging. All of this both Truth & Lie being communicated linguistically - verbal or written. Is this sense of truth & lie then merely a matter of knowledge expressed as language? Language being the only bridge to both truth & lie? An expression of all Reality?  what then is this word of truth? an illusion, an empty bowl?

Isn't Truth then really just a necessary Fiction?

Words are only an audible stimulus - a noise and different noises can be and mean different things and the fact that there are so many languages exhibits that what matters linguistically is really never a matter of truth. Truth then , in and of itself is quite incomprehensible to any particular Human expression. A person receives a sensual image; the mind recreates, emboldens it as metaphore; the image then is communicated verbal or written as a second metaphore and then, if, a very rare kind of writer communicates it aphoristically - we have a metaphore of a metaphore of a mass of metaphores! Like a hatch of spiders that are each crawling away helterskelter! lol the epitomy of Comedy? haha Certainly at times........

What then is truth? but this cavalry of metaphores  - a sum of human relations on some scale, magnified, transposed, mutated, evolved, embellished, rhetorically, until at some point they become so ingrained into the manner & culture of a Society that they become firm, rigid,  obligatory to this mass of Humanity  and eveyone has long forgotten that they are simply metaphores which have become worn out like a coin that no longer has value except only as metal.

We don't know where this urge for truth by humanity comes from and I only see it as an obligation imposed by a Society that it should exist. For a man to be truthful then means to use the customary metaphors, in a moral sense and in moral terms as simply manner to lie according to a fixed convention, To lie en masse, herd like in an acceptable style that is acceptable & obligatory to all.

INTJohn

Well this has been quite a lil journey and I've almost arrived to the destination of its first leg. Way ahead of schedule I'll add thanx to that inclement weather last weekend. When writing bad weather always means good sailing!

What I'm writing about then, if you haven't intuitively been able to deduce, is Truth as a Moral phenomena and that it is dependent, apparently, on linguistic expression. haha, Wittgenstein would love me even tho his explanations are rooted in logic & mathematics as language that is a translation to verbal symbolism. I'll have to come back to this mathematical translation to some degree in abit but first:

The question that Nietzsche put forth that was taken, I think, as a challenge by Wittgenstein remains:
"What light does linguistics, and especially the study of etymology, throw on the history of the Evolution of Moral Concepts?"  

By 'Moral Concepts'; Nietzsche is being polite here because he really means Truth as a moral phenomena = 'God', and by Evolution; synonymous with Faith. Thus it could easily be written as
Evolution of Moral Concepts = Faith in Truth or Faith in God or Faith in Science. Yes even Science is a 'Faith based Moral Concept and was one of the Moral Monsters that was the most formidable for me to overcome & defeat but eventually I was able not to destroy it but simply to put it in its proper place & perspective.

So this all goes back along long way in time - today its become that old coin that is just a worn out metal:
Zoroastrian's Faith; Plato's Faith; Aristotle's Faith; Buddha's Faith; Krishna's Faith, Christian Faith, Mohammed's Faith, Atheist's Faith, Agnostic's Faith, Science's Faith............

That Truth is Divine!!! and will always be someones God!

At this point you now begin to realize all of these Moral Monsters I've been fighting with thru out my life and hoping and guarding against that I don't become one myself. I'm nearing the destination as I'm nearing my proof of God's existence.

But first a rant but maybe it means I'm not yelling:
Secular Humanists, Atheists & Agnostics they all are equal in their Faith in Truth. But isn’t that what all of the Worlds Religions desire and seek as well? Isn’t that what they demand? Isn’t it Faith in Truth?? Isn’t Truth the great Authority? Faith in Truth is our great friend?

Its Humanity's great sickness!

Do you see the pattern, here? How can you not see it? Humanity’s psychologically sick obsession with trying to find Truth; at the expense of all Nature – Human nature and our future for a healthy Life. Whether they believe in a God or not – the disease is still the same:

The search for Truth; the obsession for Truth. Authority as Truth! Be it Osiris’ interpretation, be it Moses’ or Jesus’ interpretation; Confucius or Lao Tzu’s interpretation, Jupiter or Zeus’ interpretation; Krishna’s interpretation; Buddha’s interpretation; Islam’s interpretation; Humanism’s interpretation; Secularism’s interpretation; be it Science’s interpretation, the Atheist or Agnostic interpretation, I can go on and on and on………..

even ones own interpretation – that too must be called into question – especially ones own!

The real question here is one of Healthy Value. What is Truth’s value in living a healthy Life??? Living a healthy Life is what’s important – not simply in and of itself, Truth! All manner of Life on this planet have lived healthy lives for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and not a one of them gives a damn about moral structures based on Truth – even less about Science.

The only animal that is infected with this obsession for Truth and Morality is the extremely new to the world; so infantile; so childish; so inexperienced with Life; the so lately evolved, weak, sickly suicidal, unhealthy & pathetic beast Homo sapiens – its sickness; its infection is precisely its obsession with Truth.

Truth is only a tool not something to worship: when building a house do you worship the hammer? And doesn’t a builder use more than one tool? Don’t they use many tools? ……and isn’t Wisdom the ability to know which tool to use for which purpose? So why does Humanity emphasize only the desire for Truth at the expense of all the other tools that exist in Nature with which to build a healthy & meaningful Life?

We don’t look for or even consider any others. We’re too sick – too weak – you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink: The hell with the water! Man would still want Truth! Why do we think Truth is soooo divine? Why not Untruth once in awhile? Who among us really wants Truth? How come we don’t ever consider Untruth? There are countless Untruths that occur as a part of the evolutionary process that are Healthy to many species. They can be tools as well to help us become Healthy; others as well.

We Vagabonds; the last comedians of Truth (should I laugh or cry?) are the only humans capable of overcoming the obsession with the universality of Truth & Morality and perhaps then leading Humanity into a healthy future: Life based on a Value of our Natural Existence. ……and there are a few such persons - persons with which I see a capability for living in the Natural World in a healthy manner and its those that I love & relish a healthy and edifying conversation with, free of agenda and flowing with new and interesting ideas for a healthy future!

I'm almost ready to throw out an anchor now and rest awhile........
But not quite yet..........INTjohn

John, I admit at times I've had a hard time following your thoughts in this thread, and I haven't always agreed with some of your conclusions. But I admire that you've thought this out. So many in our world just accept whatever is told to them by an "authority" without ever thinking things through. Please continue. It makes for an interesting read, and makes me examine my own beliefs to see if I have any flaws brought about by just accepting what I've been told.

"Rainy dayz & mondays"
"Its another manic monday........"

OK here's where I really let the Atheists & Agnostix out there have it; haha but take no solace in this, however;  those of you who embrace a belief in transcendental worlds & lands that exist independent of Human thought........ for I am no friend of god; maybe I'm even a little bit part antichrist!

But first the A twins - tho they are not identical:
Atheists are brave persons, for they reject “belief” in God and if there is an all powerful supernatural being that humanity refers to as “God” then they have taken a very courageous position. But this rejection in belief in God is merely a belief that a God does not exist and thus it is a negative belief. It’s not a positive belief of embracing our Natural Existence but Atheism is a negation. These persons, atheists, need a God to NOT believe in – is that unbelief? is that embracing a positive Life? They spend most of their time bashing “belief in God” or other superstitions. They need God to attack as an enemy more than many “believers” I’ve observed need God to worship. Why? What if the concept “God” had never been invented my dear Atheist friends? What would these Atheists have to talk about? They reject belief in God because it isn’t true? They need something “true”? Faith in Truth: but that is no different than Christians or any of the Worlds major religions – they too are seeking ‘Truth’. Atheists need Faith in Truth. They are slaves to Truth. But they can’t find Truth or Life up ahead of them as a part of their Natural Existence so they look backwards and bash the Lie – Nihilism is what really reigns in Atheism.

Agnosticism:
Agnostics are more cowardly than the Atheist. They won’t go so far as to deny “God’s” existence but neither will they embrace it. Scientifically speaking, by means of the scientific method, they “don’t know for sure”. (Who does?) So they are waiting like good little children for mommy & daddy (Science and Reason) to discover & give them a safely authoritative answer. As if any Human Being has ever been capable of “Science & Reason”. Their new god is Science and Reason – their great Authority – agnostics need Authority to tell them what Truth is; this too is no different than any of the world’s major religions. If Science ever does prove God’s existence these neurotic agnostic asses would then embrace belief in God. And probably garner many an atheist as well. They too need a Faith in Truth - are the slaves of Truth. Such is the case of the pathetic Agnostic Homo sapiens beast.

....as I elaborate then and prove to them, God's existence by their own 'rules'; it kind of pisses me off, frankly that I have to do their fuking work for them:

Proof my dear Atheist & Agnostic twins:
If all that exists is of our physical/natural universe; ie that the Natural realm is all that exists and that this Natural Realm must be then by definition a closed system; and that all forces are part and product of this closed system known as the Natural Realm. Then it follows that Humanity must also be a part & product of and only a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence.............

If then, Humanity is a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence and only a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence and any forces thereof; then all that stems from Humanity must be a part and product of this closed Natural Realm/Existence as well. This of course includes all that is seen/observed outwardly from Humanity but must therefore also include all from Humanity that is not seen/observed outwardly. All the thoughts, feelings, intuitions, etc that are produced by the Human animal that perhaps are not able to be seen outwardly - whether they be 'True' or 'Lie'. Obviously included in this must be the idea, concept of 'God' - as a part and product of this closed system known as the Natural Realm. Otherwise where else; what other 'Realm' has it come from?

God therefore must exist! my dear Atheist/Agnostic friends as a part & product of our Natural Realm/Existence even if only as an abstract invention of the Human mind!

Therefore it follows when the Atheist says there is no God; that God does not exist, the Atheist is in fact denying a part & product of Human Natural Existence (for better or for worse) which is also a denial of the very Natural Realm that must be a closed system. A closed system of which the Atheist & Agnostic says is all that exists. 

So the A Twins not only deny the existence of the supernatural realm but also deny that of the Natural Realm!! If then you deny both the Natural Realm as well as the supernatural realm tell me my A twin friends?:  What the hell is left???  Nothing is left to believe in hence Atheism/Agnosticism = Nihilism. Such is the case of the pathetic A Twins Homo sapiens beast.

The Secular argument then should not be whether or not 'God' exists - but rather who created whom? Did 'God' create the Natural Realm & our Natural Existence or is 'God' a creation of that Natural Realm - as a part & product of Human Existence?

As I see it..................INTJohn

There are some deep thoughts in this thread.  Requires some concentration while reading.  Made it through most of it, but will have to come back and re read when I have less distractions around me and weigh in on some of it.  

As far as god is concerned,  Hubert Reeves says it best in my book.

INTJohn said:

...If all that exists is of our physical/natural universe...

Click to expand...

That "if" is huge. What if it's not all that exist? What if something else exists? What if "what if" was never asked? Utopia? Something else?

Really enjoy reading your thoughts. Someday, somehow, we'll meet somewhere, and we will discuss truth and also "Truth".