Which panels and charge controller?

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The mppt vs. Pwm difference is usually overblown, very rarely only under certain conditions will it be a 30% difference in charging input. And there are certain conditions where pwm may actually output more, if the panel voltage is not much higher than the minimum needed.

PWM is usually cheaper, but the good high-end chargers with all that adjustability are usually mppt.

One pwm charger that I do really like is the SC - 2030 that integrates with Bogart engineering's trimetric battery monitor. Two of them can work in unison if you need more than 30 amps, for a total of 60 amps.
 
Geeze guys. At least understand what you are saying before looking like fools. The whole point behind MPPT is that you get to use the whole panels output all of the time . With PWM the only time you could possibly see the full output is if your battery was running at the working voltage of 17 or 18 volts. Everyone here that WANTS to see their battery at that voltage please raise your hand. The closest you will see to full output in PWM is when you are running at absorb or equalize voltages and you are still flushing 20% down the drain.

It's simple really. Early on when your bank is at it's lowest is when a PWM system robs you the most. Your bank can accept 12.0 volts and you have a working voltage of 18 volts, well you are kissing 33% away. Your 100w panel is a 66 watt panel at that point. The bank come up slower in good light, much slower in low light.

There has been MPPT controllers out there for 5 years that can run a 300w system and have adjustable set points. I used them for years and a 230w 24v panel and a Eco-worthy 20a MPPT controller could match a 300w PWM system any day and make it cry in cloudy weather. That controller was and is $102 to this day. Outback recently came out with a 20a MPPT for $147, I believe you will find it's as adjustable as any.

Also, I use Lifeline batteries. 15v in absorb? It had better be a sub freezing day on a temperature compensated controller or you are just burning them up. It would be pitiful to fry such a expensive battery.
 
Yes temp compensation is very important. Lifeline's specs cross over​ 15V right around 32°F.

Certainly no one is actually charging at 12V, so why use that number in your loss calculation?

And yes if your "working voltage" is indeed >18V, that panel is designed for MPPT.

But a "12V" panel with Vpp-max at or below 17V will usually be putting its amps out at much closer to the charging voltage the battery wants.

I am planning on using a portable panel setup so not so limited by roof space.

In that context squeezing that last 5-10% of capacity during the bulk phase is more important.

In fact I plan to "throw away" a lot more than that from my rarely-produced peak power, in order to boost the *average* output from my expensive but amp-limited controller setup.
 
Here is a 100w mono panel with a Vmp of 18v

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mighty-Max-...id=100005&rk=5&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=272016499264

100w poly 18.2 volts

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mighty-Max-...181673?hash=item58dde961a9:g:ftAAAOSwB-1YwMMT

The Imp on both panels is under 6 amps, hence less than 18 amps at best for 300w. One of my 250w panels on a MPPT controller is good for 18.5a tracking no matter what voltage the battery is at. I started with a 230w system portable good for 15a unless it was at high altitude on a cold day, then 17a. Next came twin 245w systems good for 34a and I finally mounted 3 250w panels flat because they would run a small A/C and still toss the bank a bone.

My current portable is a 435w tilting panel on my truck good for 30a. The Imp of four 100w panels on PWM is less than 24a and that's when the battery is at 13.6v.
 
Ok, so with the controller that Bob recommended Blue Sky Energy SB3000i. It's about $300 with a temp sensor, so are the better options out there?

Here's the PDF: Blue Sky Energy SB3000i

It has an "Equalization" function/feature....and is I think what Bob was getting at earlier:

"EQUALIZATION

 WARNING:
 Not  all  batteries  can  be  safely  equalized.  Equalization  should  be  performed  only  on  vented  liquid  electrolyte  
lead-acid  batteries.  Always  follow  battery  manufacturers  recommendations  pertaining  to  equalization.  Equalization  applies  a  
relatively high charge voltage producing significant battery gassing. Prior to performing equalization disconnect equipment that cannot tolerate the high equalization voltage which is temperature compensated as shown above.

Equalization is a controlled overcharge used to bring all battery cells up to the same specific gravity and state of charge. The 3000i may be configured to perform an automatic equalization on periodic basis, or a manual equalization. Since sealed batteries should not be equalized the factory default settings have Equalize Enable (EqE) set to OFF to disable automatic or manual equalization. Equalization may be enabled by setting Equalize Enable to ON as described in the Charge And Load Control Settings section. When an equalization cycle is being performed the Float and Absorption charge status LED’s will alternately blink.

With equalize enabled the 3000i will perform an automatic equalization at the factory default settings of 15.2V for 2 hours every 30 days which is typically suitable for most flooded lead-acid batteries. When set for automatic equalization the cycle will begin when the set number of days since the last equalization has elapsed, and the charge control system has switched to Float. When set for manual equalization (Eqd set to 00) an automatic equalization will not occur. Whether set for automatic or manual the process may be started or stopped manually by pressing the Display Select push-button for 20 seconds.

Once  equalization  has  started  the  equalize  timer  will  not  count  down  unless  battery  voltage  is  at  the  equalize  voltage  setpoint  which  is  temperature  compensated  as  shown  above.  Therefore  obtaining  a  proper  2  hour  equalization  will  require  longer  than  2  hours  to  complete  depending  on  available  charge  current. Note that at least 3.5 amps of net charge current per 100 amp-hours of battery capacity is typically required to properly equalize a battery. If equalization does not complete during the charging day it will resume where it left off the next charging day, but will automatically cancel if unable to complete within 24 hours. The equalize day counter is reset whenever an equalization cycle is started."


From what I understand, what Bob was saying and what Sternwake was talking about in the thread linked previously...I think the "Equalization" is a good feature to have...and 1 that I would use regularly.
 
Charge at 12v? That's practically a dead battery. LMAO the cult of mppt.

Get those 3 amps!!!!!!
 
I am not into 'automatic equalization'

The EQ should only be done when there is either noted capacity loss, or if the specific gravity among all cells varies more than 0.015.  A battery bank rarely cycles or shallowly cycled will not require an EQ every X amount of days.  the very nature of an EQ is hard on a battery, and should only be done when required, and this can only be truly determined with a hydrometer, or after X amount of time when the user is intimately familiar with the expected 'morning' voltages and notices they have sagged.  Noticing this sag, well the Hydrometer would likely have yelled it a lot sooner. 

trojan and Rolls surrette call for an EQ voltage of 16.2v.  Trojan recently upped this recommendation from 15.5v.  I believe they did this, to reduce the time needed to max out specific gravity on all cells.  My previous observations showed it takes 45 minutes at 16v what took 4 hours at 15.5v.  Back then I only had solar to achieve EQ voltages, so there was not always 4 hours to accomplish max Specific gravity and another day would be required, which mean not discharging that battery overnight.


Keep in mind, that an EQ charge cycle should only ever be initiated AFTER the battery has gone through the regular absorption charge, meaning being brough to and held at 14.X volts, before then being allowed upto as high as 16.2v.  For a solar system to be able to perform a true EQ charge, well there might not be enough sun or time in the day to complete it.  One should try to not discharge their batteries the night before an EQ charge is attempted.  not so easy to accomplish whenfull time dwelling.

Also note that the EQ feature might look good on paper, as a feature.  My controller does not have push button EQ, but I can manually raise Absorption and OR float voltage to EQ levels via pushing buttones repeatedly.  Other controllers likely can also achieve EQ voltages without having an EQ 'feature'.

Beware of Automatic 'warm and fuzzy' features.  often this is marketers wanting to reach your wallet through your anus.

Any charging source which has adjustable absorption voltage setpoint and duration, either time or amperage triggered, in addition to an adjustable float voltage, is going to pay for itself in the first set of batteries, compared to the solar controller without this.

One should have more than enough solar, instead of just enough on a good sunny day.  MOre than enough also should mean the possible losses of PWM vs MPPT should  not really be a factor, or much of one.

Battery temperature sensing becomes more important in temperature extremes, like ambients regularly above 90F or below 40F.  Ideal absorption voltage changes with battery temperature, and battery temperature can lag behind ambient, or be well ahead of it if a higher amp charging source is used in the morning.

The battery temp sensor is something I wish my controller allowed for.  I bought the 35$ cheaper model back in 2007 without BTS, and regret it.  However my batteries that died prematurely back then were ALL because I did not have my absorption voltage set high enough, nor last for long enough, not because I lacked  a BTS, and still do.

Changing the setpoints on mine is just a series of button pushing.  When it gets hot I drop Absorption voltage a tenth or 2, when cold I will raise it.  I am not so hell bent on automatic everythign as some would prefer their systems to be.  I feel 'automatic everything' can lead to problems simple from user neglect and or ignorance, and/or false confidence.  As the batteries age, their needs also change, and no automatic controller really takes this into account, although amperagre based absorption voltage triggering ( versus time) does cover most of this.

What newbies to solar and perhaps the Not so Newbies need to realize, as that a solar controller switching from Absorption to float DOES NOT MEAN, the batteries are full.

Full can only be determined with an Hydrometer on flooded batteries and with an Ammeter on AGM.

The person who proclaims thier batteries are full by 1PM are usually extremely deluded, as 98% to 100% can take 2 more hours when held at absorption voltage.  Verify with the battery polygraph, the hydrometer before making such claims.  I remember my first three years i made such claims and each set of batteries fell well short of their exepcted lifespans, but it did feel good to proclaim my batteries are always full by XX:XX

The battery regularly brought to 100%, will last twice as long as the battery brought only to 98% each recharge cycle.

Also the time required to hold absorption voltage is only the same, when the battery temperature is the same, and the depth of discharge is the same and the rate at which absorption voltage was reached, was the same.

Trust your charge controller if it gives you warm and fuzzies.  But the Wiser person would verify that their charge controller is not prematurely reverting to float voltage, and wasting hours of strong sunlight which should be used to insure 100% is attained.

How to insure?  the hydrometer.  and Ammeter is great too.
 
AlreadyGone said:
(gotta vitamix I use).

Me too...plus a Cuisinart pressure cooker (amazing appliance)! Cost savings on eating with both!  :)

Good luck on your set-up!
 
bardo said:
Charge at 12v? That's practically a dead battery. LMAO the cult of mppt.

Get those 3 amps!!!!!!

Has to be nice to be one of the ones with so much room for solar on their roof that they can waste the power, so much battery that they would never get down to 50%, opps I mean practically dead, Have the funds to pay for it all or if nothing else, just find some place to plug in right. I guess anyone else should just give up and go home.
 
Ok, at this point I'm not sure which route I am going to take, but seems most everything I'm looking at (PWM or MPPT) is in the $300 range after display and temp sensor. Right now, I am leaning toward either the  Blue Sky Energy SB3000i (MPPT) or the Bogart's trimetric (PWM). Any thoughts on why 1 is preferable over the other?
 
I really **love** the Trimetric integration!

Can daisy-chain two SCs to get up to 62A output, but need units with the latest firmware.

Kedar Bogart's new owner is very responsive to any detailed questions.
 
AlreadyGone said:
Ok, at this point I'm not sure which route I am going to take, but seems most everything I'm looking at (PWM or MPPT) is in the $300 range after display and temp sensor. Right now, I am leaning toward either the  Blue Sky Energy SB3000i (MPPT) or the Bogart's trimetric (PWM). Any thoughts on why 1 is preferable over the other?

Go to the Bogart Engineering website and download the manual for the SC-2030 charger. Read section 6.2
 
6.2 Specifically how solar chargers, including the SC-2030, charge batteries

The following charging description applies when the SC-2030 Solar charger is connected with the TM-2030. If for some reason the TM-2030 is not connected, it uses a basic charging procedure, to be described in section 6.3.

This discussion refers to 12V systems—for 24V systems multiply voltages by two.

To charge batteries, a charger supplies electrical energy to the battery with a certain "voltage." "Volts" is a measure of how hard the charger is attempting to push the energy (electrons) into the battery. The battery always tends to resist the
tendency to push the electrons in—the voltage of the charger must be high enough to overcome the resisting force of the battery. This is a little like pushing water into a pipe which is under pressure—enough force must be provided to push it
in or it will not go. The "current" or "amperes" is a measure of how much (charge) energy is actually flowing in. The actual flow (“amps” or amperes) depends on two factors: how hard the charger is pushing (voltage) and how much the battery is resisting.

When batteries are at a lower state of charge, they do not push back very hard, and the battery will easily absorb all the charge (amperes) that the charger can supply. This is called the "bulk" stage of charging, and the "voltage" from the charger during charging will be below 14 volts or so. This is when most of the charge can go into the battery, and is the simplest part of the charging process; usually the batteries will be able to absorb all the energy the charger is capable of delivering.

When the batteries reach about 85% full, the job of the charger gets more difficult. The batteries begin to resist more, and absorb amps at a lower rate, meaning that it takes a longer time to do the rest of the charging. One might say, "why bother, then to go beyond 85% full? Wouldn't this make the job easy on the charger? Just always operate the batteries from 55%-85% charged."

Well, yes it would, but the reason this is not a satisfactory strategy for lead acid batteries is that if you don't fully charge them regularly, it makes it harder in the future to charge them as much. It is remarkable how often even authoritative sources on lead acid battery charging repeat the phrase that "lead acid batteries do not have memory." Lead acid batteries DO have a memory—if you do not fully charge them, they will remember that, and if this is repeated often their capacity will gradually "walk down" as is correctly described in charging information from the Concorde battery company.

This presents a challenge to solar charging— because the solar day starts to end as the batteries become more resistant. This can result in a battery that is not fully charged when the day ends. It is frequently observed that batteries being charged only by solar tend to lose capacity to hold energy— described as batteries becoming “sulfated”. This conveys the fact that the lead sulfate, which is the byproduct of discharging gets more difficult to convert back to fully charged lead and sulfuric acid if it sits around too long before recharging.

To continue the charging story, once the batteries become more resistant to charging—when the charger rises to 14.4 volts, (at 77 degrees F or 25 degrees C) liquid electrolyte batteries will begin to "gas" which means that although part of the energy is still doing some slower charging, part of the charger energy is breaking down the electrolyte in the battery into oxygen and hydrogen gases — and in addition a higher amount of the energy begins to go into heating the battery instead of the desirable conversion of the chemical charging.

Although the gassing does waste some energy, this turns out to be desirable in liquid electrolyte batteries because the gas bubbles stir up the electrolyte which otherwise can stratify—
because without the stirring the heavier acid can sink to the bottom while weaker acid goes to the top causing unequal charging at the top and bottom. In AGM batteries, the design is different, so gassing typically doesn't occur, which makes them a little more efficient.

Good solar chargers will then go into what is often called "absorb" stage—where the charger holds the voltage just above the gassing point (voltage ideally temperature compensated). The batteries then absorb gradually less and less energy as they further charge.

Most manufactured solar chargers maintain the "absorb" voltage for a set amount of time—perhaps one to four hours before they go into the "float" voltage of about 13.2 volts. Often the better chargers allow you to set the exact absorption voltage, the holding time, and the exact float voltage. The float voltage is a maintenance voltage which is intended to be the ideal voltage to keep a battery at minimum wear for the longest time once it's fully charged.

Although just maintaining the "absorb" voltage for a fixed time is not a bad way to decide when to go into "float", many battery companies suggest that it is better to monitor the amount of current (amperes) going into the battery during this time and then go into float based on this. There are three variations on this method:

(1) Charge above the gassing voltage until the amperes drop to a sufficiently low value, say an "ampere" value that is 1%
or 0.5% of the amp hour "capacity" of the batteries.

(2) Charge until the value of amps into the batteries stops decreasing for a specified period of time—and stays at this constant value for perhaps a couple of hours.

(3) Charge until the charger has replaced a specified percentage of charge amp hours that was last removed from the batteries during its last discharge cycle.

These options are unusual with most solar chargers, but the first or third is possible with the SC-2030 solar charger when used with the TM-2030 monitor. The TM-2030 measures the previous amount of discharge (typically the night before), then when recharging requires returning 105-120% of that amount, adjustable by the user. The problem for many chargers is that they do not measure or know the exact value of amperes or amp hours going into the batteries. They may measure the amps from the charger going into the battery and loads together, but they don't know what percentage of this is going into the battery compared to the loads, so these methods of observing battery amps are not available.

By returning a constant additional percentage, excess charge that is returned depends on the amount that was previously removed. This has the effect that the "absorb" time is not always the same, but is adjusted to the previous day's usage to avoid overcharge or undercharge.

Undercharge is more common in many systems, but in applications where solar charging goes on for days when very little drain occurs on the batteries, such as for RV’s stored in the sun, or occasionally used cabins, measuring amp hours can avoid overcharge.

An additional method the SC-2030 uses to get in sufficient charge is that it has an (optional) finish charge stage to try to increase the intake of current into the battery by boosting the voltage when the current has declined to a safe enough value. This is explicitly recommended by some battery companies for liquid electrolyte batteries and recently even AGM types—but usually not gel batteries.). If the SC-2030 is programmed to do this, after the charging current decreases to a safe value while in "absorption" state the SC-2030 then increases voltage (while regulating current) to attempt to put more charge at the end when the battery is becoming extra resistant so as to attain the specified overcharge amount. The overcharge percentage, maximum voltage, and maximum permitted current are all values that can be programmed into the TM-2030.

The effect of temperature on charging: The ideal temperature for a lead acid battery is often considered to be about 25 degrees C (77 degrees F). When batteries are cold, the charging process is slower, so they take longer to charge.

The gassing voltage of the battery increases with lower temperature—and therefore the recommended "absorption" voltage should rise as temperature goes below the usual reference temperature of 25 degrees C (77 degrees F). If the battery temperature varies much, the charger should have the capability to adjust its voltage to temperature, especially for sealed AGM or gel types.
 
I guess the TL;DR of all that is:

The Bogart integration of the solar controller with their Trimetric monitor gives you a lot of fine control over the care and feeding of your expensive battery bank.
 
John61CT said:
I guess the TL;DR of all that is:

The Bogart integration of the solar controller with their Trimetric monitor gives you a lot of fine control over the care and feeding of your expensive battery bank.

Don't worry...I read it. I also went back and read their FAQs, and checked a number of sources for cost on what all I would need (not panels or batteries, etc)...came up with +/- $350 shipped.
 

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