When it's time to stop.

[Zerpersande]

Good point, but...

Life expectancy in the United States is lower than in many countries and has been for an extended period... In 2016, the United States ranked 34th among all countries on life expectancy (World Health Organization [WHO], 2018a) and 40th on “healthy” life expectancy (i.e., years lived without disease or disability) (, 2018b).

Actual numbers vary. The link below gives a high (M and F) of 85 and the US in 47th with 80. My oldest student is currently 89 and still working as a doctor. I have a father-in-law that’s 87 and he’s waddling area wearing diapers. Me? I figure my golf score is gonna’ suck green toe jam by 80. I’m not going to waddle around crapping into a diaper. Those last few years will be voluntarily ‘rejected and returned’.

https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

 

[Zerpersande]

Break it down by income level Ron. Wealthy folks in the U.S. live much longer than those less wealthy.

i don’t know about the ‘much’ but that happens anywhere in the world. Socialized medicine closes that gap.

 

[bullfrog !]

Many veterans have had a form of socialized medicine that has worked really pretty well but poorly administered in certain areas and slow to change.

 

[Zerpersande]

Many veterans have had a form of socialized medicine that has worked really pretty well but poorly administered in certain areas and slow to change.

The administration of the Japanese program seems good but changes could be made. IMO the top of the sliding scale has been set too low, somewhere in the middle class range of income. But that shouldn’t be surprising, should it?

 

[Carla618]

i don’t know about the ‘much’ but that happens anywhere in the world. Socialized medicine closes that gap.

More precisely, the study shows that in the U.S., the richest 1 percent of men lives 14.6 years longer on average than the poorest 1 percent of men, while among women in those wealth percentiles, the difference is 10.1 years on average.

https://news.mit.edu/2016/study-rich-poor-huge-mortality-gap-us-0411
https://www.aarp.org/retirement/pla...2021/research-finds-the-rich-live-longer.html

'You might expect two or three years of life differential ... but 10 or 15 years … it’s an immense difference'
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/04/for-life-expectancy-money-matters/​

 

[Scobos42]

I suspect you are right on.

 

[Zerpersande]

'You might expect two or three years of life differential ... but 10 or 15 years … it’s an immense difference'​

No, when you compare the extremes of many sets you would, by definition, find extreme differences, so I’m not surprised. But I’d also wager that the murder/violent death frequency is much higher in that lower extreme. And good health care won’t have much impact there.

My point is that to adequately discuss that difference in extremes would bring in many differences other than just health care. Basically there’s a tremendous imbalance in the distribution of wealth and inherited poverty. Bernie Sanders championed resolving those issues, health care being perhaps at the top of the list. But Americans spoke, which means that the general population are happy with the way things are. Since I expatriated 30+ years ago, well, the circus can be interesting but in the end…

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

 

[Carla618]

No, when you compare the extremes of many sets you would, by definition, find extreme differences, so I’m not surprised. But I’d also wager that the murder/violent death frequency is much higher in that lower extreme. And good health care won’t have much impact there.

My point is that to adequately discuss that difference in extremes would bring in many differences other than just health care. Basically there’s a tremendous imbalance in the distribution of wealth and inherited poverty. Bernie Sanders championed resolving those issues, health care being perhaps at the top of the list. But Americans spoke, which means that the general population are happy with the way things are. Since I expatriated 30+ years ago, well, the circus can be interesting but in the end…

Eh. There are plenty of studies showing that those with wealth live longer. I shouldn't have linked to 1% when there were other studies. Many of the studies go back to the 1950's. If crime was a big factor among the poor then we would have seen the gap in the 1990's, not after 2013. That is when the gap took off.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187

 

[RonDean]

Break it down by income level Ron. Wealthy folks in the U.S. live much longer than those less wealthy.

Carla618... That was exactly my point when I said health care based on money in our pockets. If we remove the highest income levels the life expectancy would be even lower.

Camper wants a more positive forum and I want a more positive reality. It would be nice if we could both get what we want. When our news sources broadcast whatever draws the most eyeballs it is seldom content that uplifts. Reality may not be as bad as this would have us believe. But, do we dare insist on only hearing "good news?" We might wake up in a dictatorship and wonder how we got there.

 

[Zerpersande]

Eh…. If crime was a big factor among the poor then we would have seen the gap in the 1990's, not after 2013. That is when the gap took off.

Eh—
“Income inequality can cause all kinds of problems across the economic spectrum—but perhaps the most frightening is homicide. Inequality—the gap between a society's richest and poorest—predicts murder rates better than any other variable,”

Personally I have always had a tendency to trust articles in Scientific American. As for not having heard about it before…perhaps it was known and it just wasn’t (still isn’t) a concern.

Again, not saying that lack of affordable healthcare doesn’t contribute to a longer life. Just that there are other factors that come into play, with the unequal distribution of wealth and inherited poverty being the top two. And each is likely manifested in various ways.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/income-inequalitys-most-disturbing-side-effect-homicide/

 

[Gr8ful]

I'm sure suicides & drug ODs play a factor also.

 

[Zerpersande]

I'm sure suicides play a factor also.

I agree. I found a site that stated the most common cause of suicide is depression. A second search indicates that individuals with low incomes are 1.5 to 3 times more likely to suffer from depression.

 

[bullfrog !]

Work ethics are an important factor I would think also. Do people in America work more than people in other countries and is that changing? United Auto Workers striking for four day work weeks is interesting to me as in my “retirement” I went to working 4 days a week but 10 hour days so I could take an extra day to get to town for doctor visits and supplies! Lol!!! I often wondered when I saw other countries where regular exercise is part of their work day were they in fact healthier? When I stop working, if I ever do, I would think regular exercise will be vital to keeping my mobility and therefore a less depressing and longer life possibly. I’ve had way too many good friends retire to a recliner chair and die shortly after.

 

[Zerpersande]

Work ethics are an important factor I would think also. Do people in America work more than people in other countries and is that changing?

Dying from overwork is apparently a thing here in Japan. And overtime, until late at night is a major cause of such. Japanese bosses can be tyrants, berating employees in front of other workers.

 

[rruff]

Do people in America work more than people in other countries and is that changing?

We still have the most work hours for a developed country, even the Japanese. It's interesting that our perspective of Germans is that they are industrious and hard working, yet they actually work the least and have a lot of social benefits.

Actually, looking over the list again... Hong Kong, Greece, and Portugal could be considered developed... but like in the US there is a lot of poverty in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours

 

[RonDean]

We still have the most work hours for a developed country, even the Japanese. It's interesting that our perspective of Germans is that they are industrious and hard working, yet they actually work the least and have a lot of social benefits.

Actually, looking over the list again... Hong Kong, Greece, and Portugal could be considered developed... but like in the US there is a lot of poverty in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours

Every single worker in the European Union is guaranteed four weeks of paid vacation. No matter how long they've been at a company. No matter how low paying the job is. Vacation is a right.

I think we could use some of that thinking here as well. It might reduce some of the job stress that leads to depression and eventually suicide. I also have experience with a 4day x 10hour week. It was more efficient because it eliminated 1 day's start up routine. For the workers, it provided longer weekends. A true win-win.

 

[Zerpersande]

Every single worker in the European Union is guaranteed four weeks of paid vacation. No matter how long they've been at a company. No matter how low paying the job is. Vacation is a right.

Taking allotted vacation time is ‘frowned upon’ in Japan. This is especially true of workers larger, more desirable, companies.

 

[RonDean]

Taking allotted vacation time is ‘frowned upon’ in Japan. This is especially true of workers larger, more desirable, companies.

Then Japan needs to change their thinking. "It’s no secret that Japan has its fair share of workaholics. Japanese work-life balance isn't usually thought of as being particularly good either. The traditional work culture in Japan emphasizes extreme dedication to one's work... Sadly, this acute dedication to one's work has even resulted in karoshi (過労死) or death from overwork.." https://japan-dev.com/blog/japanese-work-culture I think this is not something to emulate. Just because I think the US should improve working conditions does not mean it is the absolute worst.

My post was about the EU and other western developed countries.

 

[Zerpersande]

Then Japan needs to change their thinking. "It’s no secret that Japan has its fair share of workaholics. Japanese work-life balance isn't usually thought of as being particularly good either. The traditional work culture in Japan emphasizes extreme dedication to one's work... Sadly, this acute dedication to one's work has even resulted in karoshi (過労死) or death from overwork.." https://japan-dev.com/blog/japanese-work-culture I think this is not something to emulate. Just because I think the US should improve working conditions does not mean it is the absolute worst.

My post was about the EU and other western developed countries.

You seem to misunderstand my position on this matter. I don’t agree with the system/attitude regarding work in Japan. I was had the secretary of a Japanese company I worked for tell me that I COULD NOT leave 4:45 even though I had nothing to do and simply wanted to have a leisurely trip to the airport back home to my family in Osaka. I was a typical husband working away from my family during the week, she was wife of the president, who happened not to be in the office at the moment. I was also a rational American and so when I said I was leaving anyway she was not at all happy about it. On Monday the president of the company came and talk to me, he didn’t really say that I couldn’t leave early. He just wanted to tell me that his wife was pissed off. His basic message was try not to piss off his wife.

At another Japanese company bookkeeper didn’t really like it because I turned in my daily overtime hours and that I took my allotted vacation days every single year. The president of that company had no objections to my doing so so, much like the secretary of the other company, I just ignored the bookkeeper.

This conversation has kind of derailed, because the original comment was about health insurance and the OP seem to be saying that wealthy people only live longer because of their ability to obtain healthcare. Well, I think that’s what brought me in. But my point here is that I agree with most of what you’re saying. I’ve even done my part to try to “chill out“ some of my Japanese friends. The president of wine company recently went and played golf with me on a weekday. This was non-business golf. His wife, again secretary/bookkeeper would not have approved of such. He just told her he had an appointment in Kyoto and we went and play golf.

 

[bullfrog !]

Sorry this is probably my fault but it seems to me we can somewhat sometimes determine when our time comes by choosing different lifestyles which may determine what we do when our time comes. Staying healthy and living simply allows you more options for a longer period of time in most cases in my opinion.The “George and Tioga” site from long ago followed a retired man till his death over several years in which he went on and off the road and inspired me to start this lifestyle years ago. It is well worth reading.