Vintage SM Block vs Big Block

[Charlotte's Web]

Steep learning curve!  Long before ready to buy vintage PU capable of hauling anything I choose
(within reason).

Have learned in prior threads to look for long wheel base for better towing: got it.
Nothing under 3/4 HP, engine with high torque to HP ratio, chassis capable of hitch receiver: got it.

NOW:  please give me the gist re small block/big block.  What should I be looking for?

Every day I peruse CL offerings, trying to understand what's on offer.  Help, please!

:huh: Charlotte

 

[Weight]

If you want a vintage pick up. You will be better served with a vintage sized engine. The engine the truck was designed to have. Avoid any with "upgraded" stuff. "Hey, I pulled the old 327 and stuffed it with a --" whatever, will be a problem down the line.

 

[mudbunny]

For older gm trucks the standby engines are the 350 or the 454. The 350 has 200+hp and 300+tq. Decent power and will easily pull small to medium trailers. Mileage will be 15 mpg alone and 12 mpg pulling a trailer. The 454 has 250+hp and over 400 tq. Plenty of power to pull nearly anything. Mileage will be 12 to 14 alone and 8 to 10 pulling a trailer. Both are reliable engines but upgrade to tbi fuel injection. Carbs are more powerful and the mileage will be the same but not many mechanics nowadays can work on them. Efi will get better mileage but way more complicated than tbi. Fuel injection parts are in all the parts stores, carb parts not so much.

My $.02

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[highdesertranger]

here's something to think about. the newer engines of the same CID as the old ones are lighter. starting in the late 80's and early 90's they began what is called "light weighting" they started modifying the casting of the blocks and heads. a set of light weighted Chevy small block heads will be about 10 lbs lighter then their predecessors. the heads are still interchangeable and it doesn't sound like much but it effects the durability. the light weight heads are more prone to cracking because there is less metal to dispense the heat. this is true of the block also.

also you can bore most blocks to .030 over, no more for the same reason, you are removing to much metal. finding an old block that has never been bored is getting extremely rare. also these blocks are in high demand by hot rodders and engine builders, driving the price up. a never bored 454, four bolt main from the 70's go for about 500 bucks for a core. so you must be mindful about what exactly you are buying.

another point the old heads, pre-unleaded fuel need harden seats and new valves installed. this drives the price up significantly.

so now that I pointed out many pitfalls, I am a believer in the old iron. if done right they are far more durable then the newer stuff.

highdesertranger

 

[Charlotte's Web]

"...Both are reliable engines but upgrade to tbi fuel injection. Carbs are more powerful and the mileage will be the same but not many mechanics nowadays can work on them. Efi will get better mileage but way more complicated than tbi. Fuel injection parts are in all the parts stores, carb parts not so much.

OK, but here's the thing:  What I am after is a truck for towing/hauling that is old enough to have absolutely
no brains/electronic systems.  In short, a truck that might still run after a CME/EMP. 

Where I am headed, lots of folks drive these vintage trucks, so don't anticipate trouble finding a mechanic.
I just have to learn enough to make an appropriate choice.  Trying to stay away from really old vintage, as
they begin to get really pricey. 

Trucks from 70's to '85 in good shape pricey enough... :s

MPG not biggest issue, given other priorities.  Thanks for your input!  I will be at this for a good while.
Charlotte

 

[Charlotte's Web]

here's something to think about.  the newer engines of the same CID as the old ones are lighter.  starting in the late 80's and early 90's they began what is called "light weighting" they started modifying the casting of the blocks and heads.  a set of light weighted Chevy small block heads will be about 10 lbs lighter then their predecessors.  the heads are still interchangeable and it doesn't sound like much but it effects the durability.  the light weight heads are more prone to cracking because there is less metal to dispense the heat.  this is true of the block also.

also you can bore most blocks to .030 over,  no more for the same reason, you are removing to much metal.  finding an old block that has never been bored is getting extremely rare.  also these blocks are in high demand by hot rodders and engine builders,  driving the price up.  a never bored 454, four bolt main from the 70's go for about 500 bucks for a core.  so you must be mindful about what exactly you are buying.

another point the old heads,  pre-unleaded fuel need harden seats and new valves installed.  this drives the price up significantly.

so now that I pointed out many pitfalls,  I am a believer in the old iron.  if done right they are far more durable then the newer stuff.

highdesertranger

 

[Charlotte's Web]

here's something to think about.  the newer engines of the same CID as the old ones are lighter.  starting in the late 80's and early 90's they began what is called "light weighting" they started modifying the casting of the blocks and heads.  a set of light weighted Chevy small block heads will be about 10 lbs lighter then their predecessors.  the heads are still interchangeable and it doesn't sound like much but it effects the durability.  the light weight heads are more prone to cracking because there is less metal to dispense the heat.  this is true of the block also.

also you can bore most blocks to .030 over,  no more for the same reason, you are removing to much metal.  finding an old block that has never been bored is getting extremely rare.  also these blocks are in high demand by hot rodders and engine builders,  driving the price up.  a never bored 454, four bolt main from the 70's go for about 500 bucks for a core.  so you must be mindful about what exactly you are buying.

another point the old heads,  pre-unleaded fuel need harden seats and new valves installed.  this drives the price up significantly.

so now that I pointed out many pitfalls,  I am a believer in the old iron.  if done right they are far more durable then the newer stuff.

highdesertranger

Stranger I can see that you know a  *thing or two*  about this baffling business. 

I just hope you've got the patience to see me through this!  I know how you hate stupid questions &
I am sure to have plenty till I get past the point of eyes glazing over  Ha Ha.

One thing I am sure of:  I know I can trust your advice.  Now, I am going to spend a few days ruminating
on your first info installment & try to come back with more questions that won't make you want to tear
your hair out...

:blush: Charlotte

 

[jacks18614]

Having both an 1986 C-10 4.3L4V and a 1992 c1500 4.3LTBI at the same time the 1986 was like driving an antique when it came to handling and drivability. I had major issues with the 1986 ignition BS leaving me stranded and finally went to a MSD distributer, MSD coil, and MSD CDI box to correct the GM crap.

The 1992 has never left me down the machine still runs and drives 100% after 25 years of service and 150K miles. I have replaced the starter, two water pumps, alternator, serp belt, wires cap rotor, three exhaust systems and the radiator/hoses that's it.

 

[tripper]

350 Chevy is probably the cheapest American engine to buy replacement parts of any engine made. An entire rebuilt short or long block is cheap. Plenty of aftermarket parts to give you all the power or torque you need. 454 parts are significantly more expensive, and the engine is much larger size wise, making it more difficult to work on in the engine compartment.

BTW old Dodge pickup trucks can be gotten very cheaply. The 318 engine is bulletproof, the 360 is ok too. The slant 6 has no power but will NEVER die.

For example Chevrolet 350 C.I.D. Remanufactured Engine Assemblies 350G8795 $1400 Cheap!

 

[Charlotte's Web]

...BTW old Dodge pickup trucks can be gotten very cheaply. The 318 engine is bulletproof, the 360 is ok too. The slant 6 has no power but will NEVER die.

Despite even the mention of Dodge trucks being heresy in some minds, I am NOT against the idea.  In fact,
there's a very likely candidate for what I seek on CL in N CA right now.  I am, however, in no position to buy
a truck now.  What I fear in this vintage truck quest is that I will get in over my head.  I do not want to have
a repetitious *project* on my hands!

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
Charlotte

 

[Charlotte's Web]

Is this 1964 Dodge D200 Camper Special the sort of truck I am looking for?

Now it will be me tearing my hair if answer is yes!  :huh:
No funds available now...but it looks good...

https://mendocino.craigslist.org/cto/d/1964-dodge-pickup/6362139294.html

Your thoughts, please.
Charlottes

 

[GotSmart]

Despite even the mention of Dodge trucks being heresy in some minds, I am NOT against the idea.  In fact,
there's a very likely candidate for what I seek on CL in N CA right now.  I am, however, in no position to buy
a truck now.  What I fear in this vintage truck quest is that I will get in over my head.  I do not want to have
a repetitious *project* on my hands!

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
Charlotte

I had a 1969 318 in my 91 b250.  Tinker away— I loved it. 

I am seeing more people buying wrecked new vehicles and putting the motors in vintage iron.   It is hard to pass up a 22 mpg v8 that will give you 200k miles.

 

[johnny b]

OK, but here's the thing:  What I am after is a truck for towing/hauling that is old enough to have absolutely
no brains/electronic systems.  In short, a truck that might still run after a CME/EMP. 

While I appreciate the desire to avoid having the truck's computer 'fry' from a SHTF occurrence, what would you be running thru the carburetor once the tanks run dry. Gas stations will quickly be sucked dry via hand cranked pumps, and since the refineries will be unable to run, the 'Road Warrior' scenario would soon take over. Gasoline will become like gold. Storing gas for the 'clan' in a secret cache is of course a prepper basic...but you know what they say about secrets...“Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead.” ―Ben Franklin  
Of course if the 'grid' is down, Martial Law will be declared and we'll either have strict 'control' of society or complete 'anarchy'...neither of which sounds too good.

Hiding, prepper style, will have to be 'way off grid' where there won't be roads anyway.

I think I'd want a horse, a pack mule, and all the ammo that mule could carry.

OK, back on topic...I love the older vehicles and consider myself a pretty good DIY mechanic. But carburetors can be finicky to say the least, especially the 4 barrels on the more powerful motors.
 A nice old Chevy 350 with a 2 barrel carb would be my choice for simplicity along with adequate torque for the job.
(Since the threat of SHTF is part of your planning, I would not go too big in size for your rig. Light and mobile would be key.)

 

[johnny b]

Is this 1964 Dodge D200 Camper Special the sort of truck I am looking for?
Now it will be me tearing my hair if answer is yes!  :huh:
No funds available now...but it looks good...
Your thoughts, please.
Charlottes

Is that the kind of money you're budgeting for?
That particular ad is counting on someone looking for a classic ride, willing to pay for that vintage. Since it has a slightly more modern V8 installed with a few aftermarket modifications, it would actually be worth more if 'all original'. But 10 grand is still a lot of money for that vehicle.

Keep in mind that any of the 60's - early 70's vehicles are going to have a premium price due to 'collector status'. Is being EMP resistant really worth the extra cost?

 

[Charlotte's Web]

"...I think I'd want a horse, a pack mule, and all the ammo that mule could carry.

OK, back on topic...I love the older vehicles and consider myself a pretty good DIY mechanic. But carburetors can be finicky to say the least, especially the 4 barrels on the more powerful motors.
 
A nice old Chevy 350 with a 2 barrel carb would be my choice for simplicity along with adequate torque for the job."

 
Johnny, I can't tell you what a chuckle I've had from some of these suggestions!  And btw, let's not get off
topic into prepping philosophy.  Why complicate the topic at hand?  (Amusing tho it might be.)

Now let me offer a few insider equine suggestions to you:  wiser to choose a mule over a horse for riding or packing. 
Mules are easy keepers, thrive on rougher forage, are less prone to equine ailments, have tougher
hooves & quieter dispositions.  OK equine rant over!   

As to an EMP/CMP:  I just want to be assured of getting home.  After that, we all have our plan.  Mileage
may vary.  Well I strayed off topic. 
The jury is instructed to ignore anything they have just heard.

Thanks for an amusing/surprising reply.
Charlotte

 

[user 423]

[quote="Charlotte']
As to an EMP/CMP:  I just want to be assured of getting home. 
[/quote]

You'll have to go with a truck that has an old points-type ignition to ensure it wouldn't be affected by EMP. Although pre-87ish carbed vehicles don't have a computer, they do have electronic ignition modules that are subject to failure. These were showing up in most vehicles in the early '70s. The older ignition modules may end up being more resistant to EMP than the computers but that is not something easily tested.

Also, I'd say that the majority of vehicles that are 30-to-45 years old have had the ignition modules replaced with aftermarket replacements that aren't near the quality of the orginal factory versions.

 

[user 423]

PS:

The '64 D200 originally came with points ignition but the one on CL has been upgraded with electronic ignition along with the newer 360 motor (you can see the module on the firewall).

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

OK, but here's the thing:  What I am after is a truck for towing/hauling that is old enough to have absolutely
no brains/electronic systems.  In short, a truck that might still run after a CME/EMP. 

I've been a Dodge Boy for about 55 years; I work on old iron for fun and (not much) profit.  At least in the Chrysler line you will have to go pre-1972 to get an engine without electronic ignition.  Unless you get lucky plan to spend $$$ to make an old truck reliable and comfortable to drive.  One of my mentors explained it this way: "Empty the gas tank, start stuffing one dollar bill in it with a broom handle.  When it's full, your done."  The more work you can do yourself the cheaper it will be.  You will need to know how to work on it yourself to ensure being able to drive after an EMP/Carrington event.

The best places I know of to get old pickup trucks is Texas, Oklahoma, Montana, Wyoming, North & South Dakota.  Vehicles from Texas, Oklahoma and Montana are usually rust free, which is the biggest issue with these old trucks.  A lot of these trucks have inline 6s and 8s(!).  Engine swaps (using original factory parts) are not hard.  Old small block, un-bored out Chrysler blocks are much easier to find than Chevy small blocks as they are not in as much demand; everyone wants the big blocks and even they are more prevalent than Chevy big blocks.  They are a little more expensive to rebuild but all parts are available.

I find stuff like this driving back roads every year; this one along US 12 in Idaho:

 

[Charlotte's Web]

Thanks Spiff, good info.  I must find a suitable truck from greater SF Bay Area, which means pricey.
But given the cost/logistics of out of state search, maybe not so bad, after all.  Once I am
ready for the replacement truck I must count on it, thus will pay up front for something that
has been well kept and ready to roll---more or less.

But already, from all of who have added your 2 cents, I am at least beginning to get the drift!
Since this truck will be my daily driver, I am hoping for a bench seat & reasonably comfy cab.
A good heater, too.  If it runs well, has a straight body & decent paint, I will be content.

I am skilled at many things, but am no good with a wrench.  I can change oil & filter, once was
proficient at valve adjustment on a VW bus, and once on the road changed a fuel filter.  So I
need to start out with a truck in excellent condition.  

I envy those of you who looked at the CL truck & knew what was under the hood!  Now and again,
if I see a CL ad that looks like it might be sort I am hoping to find, I'll ask again for you
appraisal.  Just remember tho, if you 'aint used to Bay Area prices you're bound to be shocked.

I've always been amazed by how many experienced, old school mechanics there are on this forum.
The only truck I've ever owned in my 22R, which I've driven since it was new.  Basically, it's
required almost nothing in repairs.  I love Toyotas!  

Again, thanks to all of you!
Charlotte

 

[UptownSport]

I spent some time in a custom machine shop-
All i did was dissasemble SBC heads and fix Gopher type rebuilds.
Each SBC would have a rocker stud pulling out, smoked rocker pivot, smoked pushrod tip, or various other wear items.
If someone's telling you how great these things were, they have zero relative knowledge.
It was made to be  cheaply manufactured, and succeeded wildly at that.
While Chrysler made excellent engines with higher quality valvetrain, you'd still have worn guides, and resulant oil consumption.
A modern Aluminum head will go hundreds of thousands of miles without any failures.

But you can argue night and day about engines, the component which will always end in catastrophic failure is the automatic transmission.