VIKINGS!

[lenny flank]

My interest in Vikings comes from genealogy and DNA... several family members have had their dna tested and we have "Scandinavian" blood... here's an interesting article on the DNA and a snip of some history:

"There is a strong desire in all of us to find simple explanations, simple histories. But it is good to remember that the peopling of Europe is a complicated web of historical events, migrations and stories along many different timelines. The migration of Norse Vikings to Britain and their control of the Danelaw is one such event. But there are others. For example, from the 5th century there was also the Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain. The Anglo-Saxon migration is relevant because some of the Germanic tribes involved in that migration (such as the Jutes and Angles) have their origins in what we refer to today as Denmark, a part of Scandinavia."

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2015/06/23/ancestrydna-the-viking-in-the-room/

I used to do medieval and dark ages re-enactment back in my younger days, including Viking shield walls. (In my time, I was pretty good with a broadsword, OK with a daneaxe, and absolutely lethal with a rapier.)

Today I still have an interest in history, from all periods. And since I work as an editor for a small publishing company which does history books, I get to read more about history in a month than most people read in their entire lives.  

Yes, the history of Europe in general is very long and complex, even though Europe is not geographically very big. When i was in London someone made a remark to me that stuck: he said "the difference between we Englanders and you Americans is that we  think 200 miles is a long distance, and you think 200 years is a long time."  In England, most villages had church buildings that were three times older than the entire USA.

It has left its mark on our language. "English" is mostly germanic in origin, but it also contains a huge proportion of medieval french words, a product of Billy the Bastard's invasion in 1066, and a lot of old norse, from the Viking settlement in the Danelaw.

For a history geek, it's an area with lots of pathways and puzzles.

 

[lenny flank]

the vikings didnt really migrate,they conquered

That depends on where we are talking about. The Vikings were smart about it---if they found a good area where the local people were weak and disorganized, they invaded and conquered. If on the other hand they found an area where people were well-organized and strong, they established trade connections instead. There have been Buddha statues found in Viking ruins, demonstrating that their trade routes went all the way to India and China (albeit through intermediaries). It should also be remembered that in some areas the Vikings were actually invited in, either to serve as mercenaries or to establish a trading center (in Russia--named after the Rus Vikings--they served as the Varangian Guard for the local bigwigs.)

 

[lenny flank]

I read that the Native Americans were never able to be conquered by the vikings and wasn't from a lack of trying.  They'd come down from Greenland and get wiped out every time they tried for some 500 years.  There was a plague here similar to Europe that wiped out the majority of the natives and that's the only reason the English and French were ever able to get a foothold in America

True or not?  I have no idea.  Sounds good though.

It was the climate that beat the Vikings in North America. They happened to get here right around the time that there was a short period of global cooling, which made it impossible for them to farm, so they left.

You are partly right about the plagues that wiped out the native Americans, but it was the English and French who brought it with them. Smallpox, particularly, once introduced by the first Europeans, swept across the entire continent and wiped out 70-80% of the population. By the time the Spanish conquistadores and the British/French colonists arrived, most of the Natives were already gone (the Aztec empire, for example, was only a fraction of its former size, making it easier for Cortez to conquer them).

 

[lenny flank]

PS--those with an interest in history might like my "Hidden History" blog:

https://lflank.wordpress.com/

Covers all sorts of history from any period.

 

[IanC]

 "the difference between we Englanders and you Americans is that we  think 200 miles is a long distance, and you think 200 years is a long time."  In England, most villages had church buildings that were three times older than the entire USA.

When  Henry Kissinger asked Chinese Premier Chou En-Lai what he thought about the results of the French Revolution, he replied "It's too early to tell"

 

[ArtW]

Hmmm, so redheaded Irishmen are the product of Viking blood? Makes sense, I am the redhead in this generation of my family, and I was definitely the one out of all my brothers and cousins you didn't want to get on the wrong side of
My Mother was the redhead of her generation, and one of Jeanne's favorite stories to tell was my mom going after a fellow she thought was threatening me with a butcher knife, (he was, and her interference actually saved him a serious ass whoopin by distracting us both) and me just picking her up and carrying her back upstairs to out apartment over my shoulder, or she would have been over my shoulder, if she hadn't remained erect and shouting dire threats, waving that knife

DuneElliot, I LOVE that interior, looks homey and well appointed

 

[lenny flank]

When  Henry Kissinger asked Chinese Premier Chou En-Lai what he thought about the results of the French Revolution, he replied "It's too early to tell"

One of my favorite quotes is from Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization: "It would be a great idea".

 

[DuneElliot]

Lenny Flank you answered everything better than I could. Lots of good info and facts, not just hearsay...thank you

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Please provide links to these claims. I agree with the middle paragraph, except for the fact that the Danes/Norsemen didn't have kings and princes.

Wikipedia has lists of Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish kings with names and reign dates showing numerous kings in the viking age, including Eric Bloodaxe, Harald Bluetooth, Sweyn Forkbeard, and Cnut the Great.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Danish_monarchs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwegian_monarchs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_monarchs

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

In his book THE EUROPEAN DISCOVERY OF AMERICA:  THE NORTHERN VOYAGES, AD500 TO 1600, Samuel Elliot Morrison devotes his third chapter to "The Norsemen and Vinland".

He says: "I do not use the popular term Vikings because the Norsemen who discovered Greenland and Vinland were not Vikings but comparatively peaceful traders and farmers.  The Vikings were the Norse freebooters and pirates who raided the coasts of Europe in their long ships.  The Norsemen we are concerned with did not use the long ship but the knarr, or round ship; and; as for fighting, the plain fact emerges from the sagas that they were run out of Vinland by the natives."

 

[DuneElliot]

In his book THE EUROPEAN DISCOVERY OF AMERICA:  THE NORTHERN VOYAGES, AD500 TO 1600, Samuel Elliot Morrison devotes his third chapter to "The Norsemen and Vinland".

He says: "I do not use the popular term Vikings because the Norsemen who discovered Greenland and Vinland were not Vikings but comparatively peaceful traders and farmers.  The Vikings were the Norse freebooters and pirates who raided the coasts of Europe in their long ships.  The Norsemen we are concerned with did not use the long ship but the knarr, or round ship; and; as for fighting, the plain fact emerges from the sagas that they were run out of Vinland by the natives."

As mentioned in one of my above posts I will concur because the word "viking" is an adjective...as in "one GOES viking" ie "one goes raiding". The Vikings were actually technically not a people or a race or a culture.

 

[DuneElliot]

Wikipedia has lists of Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish kings with names and reign dates showing numerous kings in the viking age, including Eric Bloodaxe, Harald Bluetooth, Sweyn Forkbeard, and Cnut the Great.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Danish_monarchs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwegian_monarchs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_monarchs

I stand corrected. I was under the understanding that they weren't kings in the way we views kings and monarchs today which was behind my reasoning and misinterpretation.

 

[SternWake]

Saw a neat program on PBS where they found bog iron in another location in Newfoundland indicating another Viking Settlement.

My old man is a Swedish Immigrant, my mother claims both sets of her Grandparents came from Russia.

Despite not being very historically accurate, I've been enjoying the Viking series on History channel.

 

[DuneElliot]

Saw a neat program on PBS where they found bog iron in another location in Newfoundland indicating another Viking Settlement.

My old man is a Swedish Immigrant, my mother claims both sets of her Grandparents came from Russia.

Despite not being very historically accurate, I've been enjoying the Viking series on History channel.

I watched that too. There was evidence of a forge also. I'm going to be interested to see how that excavation pans out...they got enough evidence to get permission from the Canadian government to start a proper scientific excavation. Experts have already stated that no other people of the area would have had forges. It isn't that far from L'Anse Eau Meadows but it is the furthest south they have found evidence of Dane/Norse habitation.

 

[tesaje]

Much Viking blood via the Normans, England, Scotland going back to William the conqueror. Fun fact. DNA studies revealed that in Iceland, the male genes are Norse but the mitochondrial (female) genes are Celtic. Seems the Norse took Celtic women to populate Iceland. No info on whether it was voluntary or captured.

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[Optimistic Paranoid]

It was the climate that beat the Vikings in North America. They happened to get here right around the time that there was a short period of global cooling, which made it impossible for them to farm, so they left.

Global cooling that would affect Vinland would have also affected Greenland and Iceland as much, or more so, as well as Scandinavia itself.

Quoting again from Morrison, who is quoting from a translation from one of the sagas:

"After passing a winter in which no snow fell and the cattle grazed comfortably outdoors, Karlsevni's company had another visitation Skrellings in a multitude of kayaks.  These natives were looking for more red cloth and cows milk; probably they offered in payment furs and salmon.  While the chaffering went on, Karlsevni's bull ran out of the woods, bellowing loudly, and this so alarmed the Skrellings that they paddled away and were not seen again for three weeks.  They returned in a fighting mood.  The Norsemen displayed red shields, gave battle, and were met with a shower of arrows and a primitive weapon of Skrelling ballistics.  The saga describes it as a "pole with a huge knob on the end, black in color and about the size of a sheep's belly, which flew . . . over the heads of the men and made a frightening noise when it fell."  Whatever the terrible object may have been - probably nothing more than a blown up moose bladder - it panicked the Norsemen.  Freydis, Eric's bastard daughter, saved the day.  After vainly trying to rally her menfolk with taunts, she bared her breasts, slapped them with a sword, and screamed like a hellcat.  This so alarmed the Skrellings that they broke off the attack and retreated.  It can hardly escape the reader's notice that Freydis showed more Viking spirit than Karlsevni and his men.

The leader and his people now decided to give up and go home.  Nature in Vinland was kind, compared with Greenland, but colonists would be in constant dread of the natives, none of whom as yet had reached the Greenland settlements."

 

[tesaje]

IanC
If they hadn't been out conquering and pillaging they would have never had the legendary status that they do.

Don't get me wrong, Vikings were most definitely Bad Ass! I'm not sure about that lady's comment on height though. Most Norse that I have known are usually tall, myself and brothers included. My best friend is Danish/Irish, and he's pretty darned big as well. Definitely Blonde hair running in the family as well. The Viking descendants are a mixed bag I think. A friend that studies where people came from theorized that some North American Indians may also have Norse Blood.
Food for thought, Vikings had sweat lodges, and some North American tribes had similar structures. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Lets compare basic design of a long boat to a canoe, albeit scaled down. Another coincidence? Again, maybe. There are probably more people with Norse Blood than a lot of us realize. Same thing goes for Europe. The Vikings may have had more influence on modern society than people realize.

I believe DNA studies have found no European blood in the native Americans thus disproving this theory.

Arctic conditions can generate similar solutions independently.

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[Ballenxj]

I believe DNA studies have found no European blood in the native Americans thus disproving this theory.

Thanks but, I'm afraid I have to disagree with that statement. See link below.
http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans

 

[IanC]

When you think about it, there is probably no such thing as pure Viking or Scandinavian blood. Many young women died in childbirth and there was a trade in captured women as wives where native women were scarce. So some, if not many 'Viking women' were actually slaves and they brought the genes from whatever region they were captured in.

As far as the accuracy of history goes, many accounts were one sided and reports usually painted the side of the reporter in the most favorable light (just as is the case today). In the case of Ancient Egyptian history, there is so much prejudice in favor of the main stream accepted accounts that any alternate theory, no matter how much contrary evidence is presented is pooh-poohed as the ranting of nut jobs.

Veering off the subject and into that of captured and sold women, I've often thought how bizarre it is that it is portrayed in the Disney 'Pirates of the Caribbean' ride with women being sold on the auction block while onlookers shout disparaging comments. Also women being chased through the animated displays by drunken pirates as though it was all in good fun. The reality of it was probably not fun at all for the women being chased. I'm really surprised that I've never heard objections from women's groups.

 

[Ballenxj]

And just for fun, here's an interesting read.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...n-vikings-iceland-genetic-dna-science-europe/