Van Mechanical Issues Are Taking the Wind out of My Sails

[SternWake]

If the battery has enough juice to crank and crank your non starting engine, it is unlikely to be an issue. its main engine ground, the thick black wire from battery(-) to engine block somewhere is something that needs to be eliminated as a culprit. really anytime these Dodges develop weird electrical issues, one should not do anything until they ensure the battery to firewall and battery to engine grounds are clean and tight, and no corrosion is wicking up under the wire insulation.

i know it is hard to reason how the visible copper stranding on semi corroded battery cables cannot pass current and can cause all sorts of weird issues, but it can and does, and far too often is dismissed as the culprit, when it is the culprit or a significant contributing factor.

 

[drewker]

The headlights flickering, is this just dimming and brightening with the engine rpms, or On and off like they are losing power?

If the latter You need to find the battery to firewall ground, usually right behind the battery and make sure it is clean and tight.

I am not sure where the ECM grounds on a 99.  My 89 has a dedicated ECM ground that attaches to the base of the coil on the intake manifold.

Get some throttle body cleaner.  Next time it stalls and will not start, see if it will start when you squirt the TB cleaner down the throat.  If it does start, then it is fuel delivery related, like the fuel pump is failing or the in tank filter is clogged.  Another sign of a failing fuel pump is it cuts out more often when the tank is lower on fuel, as a fuller tank keeps the pump cooler.

I still think it is your ECM.  they do fail, just from the heat too, but I suspect the connector issues, their weight stressing the circuit board solder is a prime root of PCM evil on Chryslers.

I do not know if on your year Dodge, if the PCm needs to be reflashed at a dodge dealer.

RockAuto does not even list a remanufactured PCM for a 99 b1500

These seemingly random stalls where the engine acts like it is on and off a few times a second, these minor hesitations, are all the issues I dealt with when my original ECM failed, and when this replacement ECM's solder contacts on the circuit board broke.

Getting inside the ECM connectors to clean and inspect them is not difficult, but like everything one has no experience doing, seems difficult and imposing, afterwards one is often like' Why did I fear doing that so much?'

Getting CAIG Deoxit d5 spray in a local store could prove futile.  I know Fry's electronics carries it, but I do not know how far that chain extends up the west coast.

On and off like they are losing power, but it was very brief....its a 1998...roger that about everything else, will let you know how everything goes tomm....maybe all these repeated computer connection disruptions have caused the pcm to go haywire. I wont be able to buy another one for a couple of weeks as money is tight right now. I should be able to afford the other stuff tho.

 

[drewker]

If the battery has enough juice to crank and crank your non starting engine, it is unlikely to be an issue.  its main engine ground, the thick black wire from battery(-) to engine block somewhere is something that needs to be eliminated as a culprit.  really anytime these Dodges develop weird electrical issues, one should not do anything until they ensure the battery to firewall and battery to engine grounds are clean and tight, and no corrosion is wicking up under the wire insulation.

i know it is hard to reason how the visible copper stranding on semi corroded battery cables cannot pass current and can cause all sorts of weird issues, but it can and does, and far too often is dismissed as the culprit, when it is the culprit or a significant contributing factor.

Ive owned the van for about 8 months....its always had odd electical issues. One day the power locks work, then it only woks on one side...sometime i will get shocked by a current of electricity when i touch the car door but that happens intermittently

 

[drewker]

On and off like they are losing power, but it was very brief....its a 1998...roger that about everything else, will let you know how everything goes tomm....maybe all these repeated computer connection disruptions have caused the pcm to go haywire. I wont be able to buy another one for a couple of weeks as money is tight right now. I should be able to afford the other stuff tho.

One more thing -- friday morning it did something its never done before. The ce light was flashing when i was driving on the interstate! That is what prompted me to organize / route the spark plug wires...not knowing what else to do, i read on a dodge message board that that could help with the flasing ce light. It has not flashed today however

 

[Milk Hauler]

A common problem with the 3.9, 5.2, and 5.9 chrysler/dodge magnum engines is the lower plenum gasket going bad. this gasket seals between the lower pan and the intake manifold. when the gasket goes bad, it allows oil from the lifter galley to be sucked up into the intake and burned. I've heard a few different reasons for why this happens. The 2 most common i hear is A: the bolts holding the lower pan are too long and bottom out before they can put sufficient pressure on the gasket and B: the gasket slowly gets torn apart due to different expanding rates between the pan and the intake (pan is steel, intake is aluminum). this problem can also lead to clogged cat, cracking heads, and fouling o2 sensors. There are kits that can be bought that use all new bolts, a new gasket, and a thicker aluminum pan.

Symptoms of this failure include: rough idle, lack of power, oil consumtion, heavy spark knock under load, random/multiple misfires (commonly seen on cylinder 1,3, and 8 ), poor mpg.

This problem can sometimes be tricky to diagnose if youre not familiar with this problem because it can act like other problems. On a scan tool it may look like an average vacuum leak. The easiest way to diagnose this intake leak is by looking into the intake through the throttle plates with a flashlight. if there is pooling oil in the corners of the intake, the gaskets are more than likely bad. If there is just a little bit of oil residue in the intake, its most likely the pcv valve, not the plenum. you can also check spark plugs (particularly #8 ) for excessive carbon build up.

Repairing the lower gasket is not a very hard job to do. it can be done with a basic set of hand tools and a torque wrench. If you dont own a torque wrench, you may have to rent or borrow a torque wrench to properly torque the intake bolts. The main thing to remember is to NOT reuse the plenum pan bolts. They are torque-to-yield bolts and will snap if you try to reuse them making the repair a waist of time and money. getting a chilton or haynes manual to help guide you and give you torque specs will make the job way easier.

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

 

[Milk Hauler]

This is a YT explaining how to check and fix a plenum. Its low quality, so it will use less data.

It applies to all 3.9, 5.2, and 5.9 magnum engines. I was lucky on my old 02 8.1 V10 Dodge, it didn't suffer from the dreaded plenum issues. Different intake set up.



Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

 

[drewker]

A common problem with the 3.9, 5.2, and 5.9 chrysler/dodge magnum engines is the lower plenum gasket going bad. this gasket seals between the lower pan and the intake manifold. when the gasket goes bad, it allows oil from the lifter galley to be sucked up into the intake and burned. I've heard a few different reasons for why this happens. The 2 most common i hear is A: the bolts holding the lower pan are too long and bottom out before they can put sufficient pressure on the gasket and B: the gasket slowly gets torn apart due to different expanding rates between the pan and the intake (pan is steel, intake is aluminum). this problem can also lead to clogged cat, cracking heads, and fouling o2 sensors. There are kits that can be bought that use all new bolts, a new gasket, and a thicker aluminum pan.

Symptoms of this failure include: rough idle, lack of power, oil consumtion, heavy spark knock under load, random/multiple misfires (commonly seen on cylinder 1,3, and 8 ), poor mpg.

This problem can sometimes be tricky to diagnose if youre not familiar with this problem because it can act like other problems. On a scan tool it may look like an average vacuum leak. The easiest way to diagnose this intake leak is by looking into the intake through the throttle plates with a flashlight. if there is pooling oil in the corners of the intake, the gaskets are more than likely bad. If there is just a little bit of oil residue in the intake, its most likely the pcv valve, not the plenum. you can also check spark plugs (particularly #8 ) for excessive carbon build up.

Repairing the lower gasket is not a very hard job to do. it can be done with a basic set of hand tools and a torque wrench. If you dont own a torque wrench, you may have to rent or borrow a torque wrench to properly torque the intake bolts. The main thing to remember is to NOT reuse the plenum pan bolts. They are torque-to-yield bolts and will snap if you try to reuse them making the repair a waist of time and money. getting a chilton or haynes manual to help guide you and give you torque specs will make the job way easier.

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

Ive got a 98 3.9 v6. I don't think it has an egr valve. I'm not a mechanic, but I think you said look under the throttle body, into that chamber with a flashlight. I removed the tb last week to inspect and everything looked really clean. I did not shine a light into the hole though.

 

[drewker]

The ASR relay trick is a good diagnostic trick to try if it is applicable to your van.

But, before you try the ASR bit, try the following:

With the engine cool, and not having had the issue when it was shut off, turn the key to the on position but DO NOT turn it to the start position.  The fuel pump in the tank should run for 1-2 seconds and then shut off and you should be able to hear the slight whirring noise that it will make.  If you hear the fuel pump for the 1-2 seconds and then it its shuts off then go ahead and start the engine and verify that the engine is not acting up.

If you do not hear the pump run as above described, and the van will not start, jumping the fuel pump so it runs whenever the key is in the on position is a common diagnostic test.  Just make sure what the correct procedure is for you van.  Driving with the pump jumped as above long term is both unsafe and possibly could damage the fuel pump.

One of the things that I was going to suggest was doing the Caig DeOxit treatment after cleaning up the connections per sternwake's suggestions.  His suggestion of wiggling the PCM connector is a very good idea.  It may well be that you need a PCM repair/replacement before this drama is over.  Given sternwake's Dodge van experience and tech savvyness I am for sure not going to tell you to hold off at trying a different PCM in your rig.  At least you won't be paying a mechanic to do so.

tried turning the ignition to "on" as you described... could not hear the fuel pump

 

[SternWake]

Ive owned the van for about 8 months....its always had odd electical issues. One day the power locks work, then it only woks on one side...sometime i will get shocked by a current of electricity when i touch the car door but that happens intermittently

Generally human skin will not be able to feel to 12vDC.  I can put my forearm across  a battery's terminals and just barely feel any tingling.

You getting a shock on the door either has to be like skuffing your feet on a carpet on a dry day type of static electricity, or perhaps you have an inverter running that is sending AC voltage to the van chassis.

Do you have an inverter turned on when these events occur?

I have read one report on a dodge van forum where an inverter caused so much electrical interference it would stall the engine, but the poster much later revealed himself to be a pretty dull chisel in a stuck rusty tool drawer.

 

[SternWake]

put the jumper wire across the bigger wires on the ASD relay or those that are labelled 87 and 30. the fuel pump should be then running continuously, and you should be able to hear it if you get close to the fuel filler door.

If not wrap the fuel tank and see if you hear anything.

 

[drewker]

Generally human skin will not be able to feel to 12vDC.  I can put my forearm across  a battery's terminals and just barely feel any tingling.

You getting a shock on the door either has to be like skuffing your feet on a carpet on a dry day type of static electricity, or perhaps you have an inverter running that is sending AC voltage to the van chassis.

Do you have an inverter turned on when these events occur?

I have read one report on a dodge van forum where an inverter caused so much electrical interference it would stall the engine, but the poster much later revealed himself to be a pretty dull chisel in a stuck rusty tool drawer.

i don't know. not sure what an inverter is... could not find the CAIG spray, got electronic cleaner and some dental brushes. have cleaned as best i can and waiting for it to dry now. battery connections look good and there is no corrosion. have not cranked the car since last night, parked in starbucks parking lot all night. 

generally speaking, if you are parked for a period of time and when you go to start the car, you don't hear the fuel pump and the starter sounds good but the car wont start unless you continuously press the gas pedal while turning the ignition - would that not by process of elimination point to a fuel pump/filter issue? or could it also be the pcm... i think you will say either, just double checking. but the process i just described is the only way i can get it started sometimes after a stall out or sometimes its not after a stall out. could have been parked for several minutes or hours and it won't crank. i have also noticed the if the vehicle is on an incline then the likelihood of this hard start happens. sometimes it fires right up like nothing is wrong. i never know which will happen. i'd say about 15% of the time i can't get it going, but the majority of the time it starts right up and i'm on my way. i would not be surprised if it cranks right up and i'm on the highway soon...until the next event happens, whenever that is. 

the pcm i need will take a few days to get and i cannot afford it now any way unless i can luck out by finding one at an auto salvage yard. the most realistic option for me now if cleaning the connectors does not work is to drop the fuel tank when i run out of gas and clean or change the fuel pump/filter, even though that is not cheap. 

the last option was to bypass the pcm by setting up that asd jumper as described on the message boards. i love the sound of that, but it could cause even more probs for me, dunno. will probably try it if i get desperate enough which i pretty much am already.

 

[SternWake]

With fuel injection, you are not required nor supposed to press the gas pedal when starting. When other drivers think my van is carb'd and use the gas pedal when cranking, the engine takes forever to start, and I yell at them furiously( not really).

If the starter does not respond to the Key sometimes, I would more suspect a bad battery to engine ground. Have you followed that cable from battery to engine block?

You cannot bypass the PCM. You can use the jumper on the aSD relay into powering the ignition and fuel pump when the ECM is not working properly. Semantics i know, but the PCM has to be functioning to some degree to run the engine at all.

The PCM switches the ground on the ASD relay, so this is another indicator that perhaps your main battery to engine ground is corroded and intermittent, asn the ECM will likely take its ground from the engine block.

Follow the thick black wire from battery(-) to engine block. If it is loose, bingo. Even if it is tight, that does not mean it is a good ground. Loosening it and retightening it could be all it takes, but complete removal and shinyifying the mating surfaces and retightening is much better, if much more labor intensive.

 

[SternWake]

BTW an inverter takes 12vDC battery power and inverts it into 115 vAC household power. These can be extremely electrically noisy and can possibly backfeed into your engine harness

 

[29chico]

Your best chance a picking up a used PCM locally is just a bit north of you in Moss Landing.  There are several wrecking yards on Dolan Rd.  The Pick n Pull there will have the biggest stock of vehicles.  Dolan Rd is a right hand turn off of Hwy 1 when heading north.  Dolan Rd is the right turn immediately before the huge steam generating plant.  You can't miss it.

From your description of where you are the wrecking yards should be about 10 miles from you.

Until last year I spent a lot of time just a few miles away from those wrecking yards on some family property.  So if I can help with any other info please ask.   I will PM you my phone number.

 

[drewker]

Your best chance a picking up a used PCM locally is just a bit north of you in Moss Landing.  There are several wrecking yards on Dolan Rd.  The Pick n Pull there will have the biggest stock of vehicles.  Dolan Rd is a right hand turn off of Hwy 1 when heading north.  Dolan Rd is the right turn immediately before the huge steam generating plant.  You can't miss it.

From your description of where you are the wrecking yards should be about 10 miles from you.

Until last year I spent a lot of time just a few miles away from those wrecking yards on some family property.  So if I can help with any other info please ask.   I will PM you my phone number.

Funny, i just left there! No luck. Van started hesitating after i left so i am currentluly parked near the otter viewing area off jetty road. Just unhooked the pcm, was gonna do whatever i can, following sterns intruction, and some of the other ideas posted here. I also have an electronic version of the chiltons manual, but i think haynes is way better. Not impressed with chiltons  .... I am prepared to be here till sunset tinkering around with the vehicle... I actually have a job interview at 2pm tomorrow in san fran... Thank you for your kind offer, not sure what you can help me with but i definitely will let u know....

 

[drewker]

With fuel injection, you are not required nor supposed to press the gas pedal when starting.  When other drivers think my van is carb'd and use the gas pedal when cranking, the engine takes forever to start, and I yell at them furiously( not really).

If the starter does not respond to the Key sometimes, I would more suspect a bad battery to engine ground.  Have you followed that cable from battery to engine block?

You cannot bypass the PCM.  You can use the jumper on the aSD relay into powering the ignition and fuel pump when the ECM is not working properly.  Semantics i know, but the PCM has to be functioning to some degree to run the engine at all.

The PCM switches the ground on the ASD relay, so this is another indicator that perhaps your main battery to engine ground is corroded and intermittent, asn the ECM will likely take its ground from the engine block.

Follow the thick black wire from battery(-) to engine block.  If it is loose, bingo.  Even if it is tight, that does not mean it is a good ground.  Loosening it and retightening it could be all it takes, but complete removal and shinyifying the mating surfaces and retightening is much better, if much more labor intensive.

I just posted my status below.... Typing on a cell phone so gonna sign off for a bit. Was gonna open the pcm to inspect ... Dont have a solder kit tho... Im gonna try to get the harness off the pcm connector. Any smooth way of doing that without breaking it?

 

[drewker]

BTW an inverter takes 12vDC battery power and inverts it into 115 vAC household power.  These can be extremely  electrically noisy and can possibly backfeed into your engine harness

Okie doke...sternwake, took apart the PCM which has very stubborn to get open... See links below for pics... The first pic is obvious that something looks wrong, then again it could just be old age or staining from the gel substance in there... which is reddish in color after all. it looks like a brown cloud of something that is suspended in the gel. but the circuit board gel is clear so i do think something has been fried. my random guess is that something blew out on the circuit board by all that connector jostling that has been going for who knows how long, probably years before i owned the van.  other than dust, the other part of the pcm looks fine. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1CgCBidpfUabmllMDk0aXpITTg
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1CgCBidpfUaSm1NOXYyOWxOdjQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1CgCBidpfUaRVpvME5jbmc2aE0

i took a picture of the connector pins on the far left side, also a pic of the bad connector - actually the connector looks fine, its just that toungue latch on the harness which has totally broken off, thus i cannot get that snap into place feeling when you put it into the port. any suggestions?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1CgCBidpfUaaEJEdm9wNmdEMG8
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1CgCBidpfUaZ21HOXhDV0t5YmM

what now? i actually hope it is the pcm so that i can finally put this issue to bed. autozone in seaside can get it for me by tuesday for around $300. I might be fasting this week, but i want this damn rig workin again. the stakes are so much higher when you are livin' in this thing.

 

[drewker]

Funny, i just left there! No luck. Van started hesitating after i left so i am currentluly parked near the otter viewing area off jetty road. Just unhooked the pcm, was gonna do whatever i can, following sterns intruction, and some of the other ideas posted here. I also have an electronic version of the chiltons manual, but i think haynes is way better. Not impressed with chiltons  .... I am prepared to be here till sunset tinkering around with the vehicle... I actually have a job interview at 2pm tomorrow in san fran... Thank you for your kind offer, not sure what you can help me with but i definitely will let u know....

Hello again. Dont know if you can help but i cannot start the van again after putting in the pcm again. The park im in closes at sunset, dont know how this is gonna float with the park ranger. Im gonna buy the part tomm but it will take two days to get here unless another junkyard has it. Will let u know if anything changes but that is whats up right now. Thanks

 

[drewker]

Your best chance a picking up a used PCM locally is just a bit north of you in Moss Landing.  There are several wrecking yards on Dolan Rd.  The Pick n Pull there will have the biggest stock of vehicles.  Dolan Rd is a right hand turn off of Hwy 1 when heading north.  Dolan Rd is the right turn immediately before the huge steam generating plant.  You can't miss it.

From your description of where you are the wrecking yards should be about 10 miles from you.

Until last year I spent a lot of time just a few miles away from those wrecking yards on some family property.  So if I can help with any other info please ask.   I will PM you my phone number.

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Hello again. Dont know if you can help but i cannot start the van again after putting in the pcm again. The park im in closes at sunset, dont know how this is gonna float with the park ranger. Im gonna buy the part tomm but it will take two days to get here unless another junkyard has it. Will let u know if anything changes but that is whats up right now. Thanks[/font]

 

[SternWake]

Heck sorry to hear this.


Can you wiggle the suspect connector with the key on and get any noises, relays clicking idle speed motor?  it might require pulling slightly on the suspect connector.

Did you check the fat black wire from battery (-) to engine clock.  Is it cranking but just not starting?

I have not seen circuit board potting that looks darker in just one area,  My ecm all the potting is the same darker brown color, barely translucent, and it is soft silicone.

Do any of the pins wiggle excessively on the suspect connectors seat on the pcm?

Did you disconnect the battery when you unplugged the ECM?

have you tried disconnecting it for a minute or two since it will not restart?

I was in Waddell creek, north of Santa cruz when I thought I was in a similar situation to you, I could get it to run, but only one of my two fuel injectors was firing but the connector manipulation/massage with a thousand zip ties, curses and prayers, actually got me the 500+ miles back to San Diego, with only about a dozen more stalls along the way

When I removed the potting on my circuit board, on the backside where all the visible solder joints were, there was no Obvious broken solder contacts, and I was unsure just remelting the solder and adding a smidge more would be effective, but it was.

I don't 'think' the burnt looking potting is actually representative of some failed component.  Was it thicker where it was darker?

Can you access the backside of the circuitboard and see the rows of solder joints that represent the connector interfaces?

I was actually calling around electronics places asking if they knew anybody who would take on the resoldering job, but a friend of mine detailed the process for me, andsince the pins were larger, and I only had a 40 watt iron, he stressed me getting a more powerful iron so that I did not need to hold the heat on the solder as long to get it to melt.

I purchased a 140 watt weller soldering gun specifically for the task, and ground the tip to fit perfectly on the exposed pins' backside.


At least 3 of these pins's solder was compromised, likely 4, but none appeared to be bad on the side showing, none even appeared to move excessively when I wiggled the pins on the other side.

BUt remelting the solder and adding more fixed the issue, in January of 2015 and not a stall since.