Things learned from installing bat/inverter..

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Blue

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Hi all, I'm not an extremely technical person but I surfed the web and decided to put my battery and inverter in myself.

I got a large ammo can and drilled holes in it to facilitate the incoming lines from the inverter and the starter battery, as well as for the ground line and the vent (I didnt want to use AGM batteries) then took two small slats of wood and drilled those into the frame, then put the ammo can on top of those wood blocks and mounted the ammo can to it. (I didnt want the ammo can to ground from sheet metal screws)

I got a can of flexall and coated the inside of the ammo can with it to create a non conductive surface. Spray did float out of the box and mark up my chairs, window and dash... man that sucked.

I was able to push the positive house battery line through a hole that already existed in the firewall, but unfortunately the 4 gage wire I chose was not long enough for me to attach the solinoid isolator inside the ammo can, instead I opted to attach it to the frame near the parking break under the steering wheel, and run an additional line from the isolator to the positive terminal of the house battery. The Isolator is not in the way really and will work if it does look a little rednecky. I also got a simple switch to attach to the isolator rather than attaching it to the ignition switch, I wanted to be able to run the house battery from the starter if I felt it necessary.

I got an old Jack Daniels wooden box and used that as my inverter box, I also got some dual 12 volt outlets and mounted those to the box interior as well. After having it all ready to go and mount I noticed I had miscalculated how much space would exist between the hospital bed I have in the back of the van, and where the ammo can is mounted, so I had to flip the inverter box on its side in a weird position to get it to fit. again, it looks a bit botched but it will function. I figure I can fix this later when I put in a second battery and maybe a second inverter.

Also, when I went to test my ground line with the marine battery I bought, it wouldent detect the ground... it also wouldent detect the ground when I attached the tester to the starter battery ground (which I know is good) not understanding what was going on I took it back to the store I got it from, they brought out a new battery and it did the exact same thing. Finally I went across the street and talked to a mechanic at an auto dealership service bay, he told me that the tester wouldent work until after the battery was already grounded (wtf that made no sense) but I was willing to take his word for it since I had already spent too much time messing around with it.

so bottom line of what I learned... 1), measure and mark everything before you start building anything. 2) make diagrams of what you plan on doing, be specific. 3) know exactly what you need before you begin building (dont just buy a long cable, when your not sure how much line you will need, figure it out before you buy) 4) electicals are confusing, dont trust anybodies word go out and research it yourself. 5) If you need to spay paint anything, do it outside and BEFORE you have it mounted in your car.

anyhoo... tomorrow I put the battery in and attach the lines to the inverter, starter battery, and isolator. wish me luck. :)
 
good luck :)
How about some details? brand and size of inverter, batteries, isolator?
I did not understand what you were saying about testing the ground.
 
Blue - I read what you wrote twice....and it sounds like you've got a good grip on what you are doing---but my eyes are now glazed over :(
When I get to the point that I will need to install a deep cycle battery and inverter, and ultimately solar power (this will have to wait until I get a van though -right now I'm in a car) I am going to find the closest one of you guys to where I am at and ask for help.
Most things, I'm great with and can follow printed directions pretty well, but reading about anything electrical, amps vs solar power, etc----I feel like I'm reading a foreign language.
How did everything turn out?
 
well lets see... first I kept trying to connect the positive inverter line to the negitive house battery terminal... sparks shooting off and I couldent figure out why, it was grounded when I tested the terminals (etc) I just didnt realize when I put the battery in I had accidentally turned it around... uggg... my own stupid will kill me one day... but I got it in and everything worked fine, also the 4 extra cigg lighters I added to the inverter box should work very well. I still need to connect the line from the solinoid isolator to the starter battery, and I plan to do that tomorrow...

by the way... below is the webpaged I followed, its been the best on electrical systems I have found, lots of pics even electrical diagrams (heck, it was written by an electrician I think) and yeah I could have gone to a mechanic and paid some duckets and got it done a LOT faster, but then I wouldent understand the power system and I think it's good to know all you can about your vehicle so when something goes wrong you "might" be able to fix it...

http://vandwellersteve.blogspot.com/p/electrical-systems.html
 
Blue said:
I was able to push the positive house battery line through a hole that already existed in the firewall,

Hope you protected that wire with a fuse and extra insulation or a grommet where it passes thru hole in fire wall.
 
20 to thirty amp depending on your draw ....if you go to a parts suppy you can get a breaker type.......if you forgot to sheild the wire or pass it thru a grommet ....take a piece of hose and spit it and run it over the wire thru the hole
 
Inverter itself has a fuse and it was not on at the time. Works fine now.

I have some photos and I'll try and figure out how to post them tonight.
 
ok so here are the pics...

Ok so following the positive line from the starter battery...

I got a 6 ft long 4 gage battery cable and found there was already a hole in my firewall for the interior electronics, the hole was plenty big enough to run the cable through. BUT the two positive lines already attached to the starter battery left no room for the new cable, so I bought a new battery terminal connector that let me weave the copper of all three cables together, the insert into the connecter and use the screws to wrench them down making a really good connection. thats the first pic.

starter batt 1.jpg

Next I got a big metal air tight ammo can from a local surplus store, and a solinoid isolator for 26 bucks from a local RV store. I figured I would put the isolator in the ammo can since there was extra room BUT I found that my 6 ft 4 gage positve cable that was attached to the starter battery didnt reach all the way along the floor and into the ammo can, so... I attached the solinoid isolator to the frame of the cab next to the parking break (the parking break does clear it) and attached another 4 ft cable that will reach into the ammo can... note I also had to connect a ground wire to the isolator. (I'll get to the switch in a minute) thats the next picture...

Isolator1.jpg

So I decided I didnt want my isolator controlled by the ignition switch, I'd rather have an on/off button giving me more control over when I could or couldent use the power in my starter battery. One 16 gage wire runs from the button to the positive of the starter battery (powering the button) the other runs to the smaller terminal of the isolator (telling the isolator when to function) thats the next picture... and you can see my 4 ft postive cable running along the floor boards to the battery box, and my 6 ft cable running out the hole to the starter battery...

Isolator 4.jpg

In this next picture you can see what the floor looks like when I dont want the wires exposed... I also got some extra grey carpet and soon I'll make sure to cover the isolator so you cant see it at all.

Isolator 3.jpg

Next, I already had a middle console for holding drinks/more cup holders etc. when I tore that out there were still two big peices of wood that would make an excelent brace for the big ammo can. Knowing I would also need to connect a ground, I tore out a circular chunk of carpet/padding to expose the metal frame, then sanded the frame so there was no paint to mess with connectivity, then connected a negitive 4 gage cable to it sandwiching the connector between about four washers and a locking screw, then drilled a self tapping metal screw into the frame. (sorry didnt take pics of this) finally I put the ammo can between the seats, and used self tapping metal screws to drill it into the wooden bracers. Then I drilled a hole in the front of the ammo can for the incoming positive cable... note: this was a mistake, I should have drilled the whole through the bottom of the can so there wouldent be a visible wire running out the front.

Ammo 1.jpg

ok reached the attachment limit to the post... will continue in a minute...


Next I drilled a big hole in the rear of the right side of the ammo can for connecting my vent to it (still need to make the vent) I also drilled a hole from the bottom of ammo can for the ground wire (I previously attached to the frame) then drilled a oval type hole in the very back of the ammo can for the positive and negitive lines running to the 2,000/4,000 watt inverter. Next I put about six coats of the "flex-all" rubber sealant inside the battery box to stop accidental grounds and shorts, then I stuck the series 29D marine battery in there, and connected all the cables.

Ammo 2.jpg

Ok for the Cen-tech 2000/4000 watt inverter, I got an old Jack Daniels wooden box and mounted it inside. Origionally I had planned to lay it flat on the floor and metal screw it to the frame BUT I found there wasnt enough room between my ammo box and my bed to do that, so I had to stick it on its side. It still works but it looks a bit hokey and at some point I'll have to mount it on a wooden wall I still plan on building inside (with the vent.) Note also: I had some extra space in the inverter box, so I got some extra dual cigg lighter connectors and mounted them inside the box as well. I was careful when choosing these as some only multi-12 volt connectors I saw at walmart only used thin 16 gage wire, and I figured if I was using heavy draw 12 volt appliances that could be a problem. Pep Boys had some that used 10 gauge and that seemed best. heres the back and then the front of the inverter.

Inverter 2.jpg

inverter1.jpg

ok well... thats it in a nut shell... so why all this trouble? two things, first... I want my X-Box One in there, you can surf the internet with it, do just about everything you can do with a lap top, and you can do 80% of that with nothing but voice commands or handwaves. Its just too sweet not to stick it in there. Also, I'm a big guy and when I was trying to stealth in a 35 ft RV, what always gave me away was moving around inside. any little rock or tilt in the suspension and somebody would pick up on me being in there... so.... this Serta hospital bed I got lets me shift my position from sitting, to laying down, to sitting with my feet up (like a zero g chair) with a remote control and its amazingly quiet (but not too fast) and if I'm a little sore its also got like 10 types of massage ;-)

bed 1.jpg

bed 2.jpg
 

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That wally world battery in the engine compartment.

Your new connector with the three cables intertwined and clamped is not as good of a connection as you think. Being positioned right over the caps it will corrode quickly, and become a very poor connection in very little time.

At the minimum, get some liquid electrical tape and seal all that shiny copper stranding with a couple layers an hour apart, but after you retorque those nuts. Should be good for a few years then.

Ring terminals properly crimped or soldered and heat shrinked tubing are a better, longer lasting solution.

Some solenoids are latching solenoids, meaning they need a toggle/momentary switch to activate the latch, not a continuous 12v to hold the electromagnet.

Latching solenoids get really hot when fed a continuous 12v.
 
Why the ammo can? Risks of shorting out. The wires going through the metal hole may get roughed up from movement and rough roads risking exposed wiring after a while or it may take years, but still. Then there's the risk of acid spillage inside and the fumes itself corroding the metal can? Battery boxes are only like $8 at Walmart I think.
 
You gotta have a box that is air tight to vent the hydrogen gas, the holes around the box will be filled with silicone and suspend the wires. I'm a smoker and I'm considering using a very small wood stove/heater inside the van, I didn't want even a remote chance of kaboomage. Also like I said, I coated the whole inside with like five layers of rubber sealant for all the reasons you mentioned, and the plastic Walmart box had vents all over it, was cheap and weak walled (don't think it could have handled the drilling and screws) and I didn't think it would leave enough room for all the cables I was attaching...
 
Is there that much of a risk of an explosion from the fumes of a house battery being routinely recharged daily? Considering that you'd open the doors a few times to get in and out and that a stock van is not that well sealed.

I'm going to have 2 batteries. What about those batteries that are sealed where there's no caps to take off to refill the water? How does the venting of those work? And how would you add more water in them? They call the "maintenance free" batteries.
 
Conventional wisdom is that the risk is so high you should never have a vented battery in the van with you. If you want to play it safe, follow that advice!

I can only speak for myself, I think the risk is very low. In the 12 years I've lived in a vehicle I have ALWAYS had a vented battery in the van with me, generally under the bed, and they have NEVER been in a box of any kind.

I've never had a problem.

Again, that is a violation of ALL the safety rules, you proceed at your own risk if you do it. I do not recommend you do as I have done.
Bob
 
Im with Bob....it only takes once to learn something the hard way....all it takes is a static spark and the gas to be present......a shorted cell will make the gas fast.....

a simple tub with a vent to the outside all done...
 
@gray whale - those capped batteries are the gell aka AGM batteries most people here use, safer yes but shorter lifespan and more expensive, also recharging must be done differently... sort of the choice between a reliable AK-47 or a high-tech anything else.

Bob, "all information on this website is for educational or entertainment purposes only, under no circumstances should any information on this website be considered factual and/or any advice given by forum members or its administrators be followed" heh the catch all I've seen on some sites.
 
Some maintenance free batteries have liquid sulfuric acid inside. No removeable caps. They are not AGM nor Gel, just normal flooded starting batteries with non removeable caps

Generally these flooded batteries are designed to offgas less by using a different chemistry plates, like lead calcuim or high antimony. Not sure on those specifics. But the whole premise of such batteries is that during their lifespan, they will not require watering.

Such batteries are just starting batteries and not fit for deep cycle duties. They are not a solution to offgassing. They are a well marketed product, marketed toward those who when asked how often they change their oil, will say "change it to What?"

"maintenance free" is just a way of calling you lazy, or saying marketed toward the lazy or the inept. Since such batteries are hardly more expensive than normal batteries with caps, and half the price of AGM, the consumer gets the warm and fuzzies and a false sense of security, and perhaps some very hollow bragging rights.

Like Bob, I also got away for years with an unvented flooded battery inside, but I did often have to smell them when charging them. No doubt the fine acidic mist is not safe to breathe for any duration, in the long run. Having electronics in the same area when charging them is very unwise, and even if Spark does not meet hydrogen or oxygen and go boom, the gas is still corrosive.

Do note that flooded batteries only really offgas when charging and above 75% charged. When you are discharging them at night they are not offgassing. If your only charging source is the alternator, then it is likely you are moving and gas build up is not an issue or less of one.

Even more likely is that the charge wiring is so long and so thin the alternator cannot ever get the battery into the offgassing range.

My motivations for making an underfloor battery box was interior space, more so than offgassing. Also, if an accident were to occur, a battery is like an extra acid spewing piece of schrapnel in a hand grenade. Getting them below the floor is piece of mind.

Any batteries inside should be made completely immobile, and also protected from anything touching both battery posts at the same time.
Do not cut corners on this aspect.
 
WoW stern, great post, never heard of "mantinance free" batteries before, and the comment about the acid spewing shrapnel in a handgrenade makes me feel even better about the ammo box/battery box I built. May not be under the floor, but it was hell to drill through and even in an accident I dont suspect it would pop.
 
Hydrogen only explodes when it is somewhat confined. So we see battery cells explode (even when the caps are off) when high charging (or discharging) rates cause off gas, and a spark is introduced. Like connecting jumpers or smoking over the cell. I think the amount of hydrogen vented into a van would be sufficiently diluted to not explode. It may cause fire, may cause corrosion. But confined in a ammo box it would be a bomb.
The actual gasses are called Brown's Gas. A mixture of hydrogen and oxygen just wanting to be water again.
 
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