The Value of Time

[SoulRaven]

If one is unable to land despite best efforts or can't work more hours at their minimum wage job, then their time is worth less than minimum wage.

Like a ready made van with the same features in the one I have would cost at least $50,000 (new or used). If I were to hire a professional to mod the van, their labor rate is $100 an hour (business rate, sure one could hire their friend for less; don't deflect here).

The used price you're quoting is way of base, an identical van like yours, except in perfect mechanical shape can be had for +/- $1500...  Sure, you have to patient, and act fast because they sell fast, but they are out there.

I saw a post somewhere a few weeks ago where someone bought an 86 that looked just like yours in Santa Barbara for $1350 with 75k original miles.  They have since driven it to Boston or Maine, or somewhere back there without any problems.

Class C's can be bought dirt cheap sometimes too, also in excellent shape, just older.

As for jobs, there  is never a shortage of minimum wage, no experience necessary jobs out there.  They aren't necessarily glamorous jobs, but the are jobs.  Some are part time, so people work more than one of them to get their 40 hours a week in.  If somebody WANTS to work, there's plenty of jobs available.

There is also the benefit that one can pick any of their free hours to spend on the DIY build plus add anything to the build provided ones has the money/time/tools/skill for the addition(s).

Or you can spend that free time making money...

Remember not everybody can land a minimum wage job, or are so poor as to make it a hardship to sell something else to buy a breastpump.

This is one place I TOTALLY disagree...  EVERY able bodied person can land a minimum wage job any time they want one.  I'm almost 70 years old, and not so able bodied any more, but I could go to any decent sized town in America and and land a no experience necessary, minimum wage job, in a single day, with no resume, no nothing, other than being a warm body willing to show up for work the next day.

There are no circumstances forcing you to be poor, it is a choice you have made for yourself.  You can choose to have a job and money just as easily.  It is you that has convinced yourself that there are no jobs, when in reality there is no shortage of them, and new ones popping up constantly.  There is ALWAYS a need for minimum wage workers. and the truth is that many of those companies are having a very hard time filling those positions, because people don't want to work for minimum wage. 

Poor is a relative term.  I live like a king, and it cost me a little under $600/mo for all of last year.  In an apartment, it would have probably cost me three or more times that, which is why people don't like the minimum wage jobs, because just one job won't pay all the bills.  With low expenses though, the value of a minimum wage job soars.

A prime example would be most of the people in 2nd and 3rd world countries, they do things that are unheard of in the 1st world due to the fact that their time is valued at pennies.

But those pennies also buy a lot more, because their cost of living is lower.  Much like the life of a van dweller, since our costs are so much lower than most people's, our money goes further.

 

[Wanderer]

As for jobs, there  is never a shortage of minimum wage, no experience necessary jobs out there.  They aren't necessarily glamorous jobs, but the are jobs.  Some are part time, so people work more than one of them to get their 40 hours a week in.  If somebody WANTS to work, there's plenty of jobs available.


  There is ALWAYS a need for minimum wage workers. and the truth is that many of those companies are having a very hard time filling those positions, because people don't want to work for minimum wage. 

There's work available, the problem is that the costs of living are outweighing the benefits. Used to be you could spend 20-30% of your take home pay for an apartment. Now? It takes 1/3 or 1/2  So work for $1,320 a month and have $700 go out the door for your rent (Utilities included)...Food is next and then car? (I'd doubt they can get one) This is the reason that people don't want min wage jobs.

The flip side of the $15 an hour movement is that if you're at 22-33 hours, then the employer has some choices. If you're a steller performer, always busting butt and doing more for the money, yep, you're getting those hours. But if you're just doing the basics, then you're getting less hours...

Then, there's also those who have gotten pay raises and had to back off the hours they worked so they still got the govt benefits. 

Here's a good article done on this: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/22/opinion/la-oe-tanner-welfare-work-pay-20130822  (August 23, 2013 date)

Key part: [font=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]In fact, in 33 states and the District of Columbia, welfare pays more than an $8-an-hour job [[/font][font=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]see chart[/font][font=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]]. In 12 states, including California, as well as the District of Columbia, the welfare package is more generous than a $15-an-hour job. In Hawaii, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, D.C., welfare pays more than a $20-an-hour job, or more than 2.75 times the minimum wage.[/font]

 

[highdesertranger]

I missed the whole breastpump thing. I must go back and read this all over. highdesertranger

 

[highdesertranger]

ok I found it. one word, WHY. highdesertranger

 

[GotSmart]

A breast pump can be picked up for about $10.   :dodgy:

Hyperbole...

 

[debit.servus]

The used price you're quoting is way of base, an identical van like yours, except in perfect mechanical shape can be had for +/- $1500...  Sure, you have to patient, and act fast because they sell fast, but they are out there. What about the time spent checking Craigslist once or twice a day to follow the listings and check for steals to be listed? For big stuff it could pay (depending on how many days one searches for a steal and how many minutes spent every day).

I saw a post somewhere a few weeks ago where someone bought an 86 that looked just like yours in Santa Barbara for $1350 with 75k original miles.  They have since driven it to Boston or Maine, or somewhere back there without any problems. Again, those steals do happen; I want to know approximately how many hours he spent watching/following/checking Craigslist/EBAY/KIJIJI/AUTOTRADER/etc for that steal. 

Class C's can be bought dirt cheap sometimes too, also in excellent shape, just older. Read response to last paragraph.

As for jobs, there  is never a shortage of minimum wage, no experience necessary jobs out there.  They aren't necessarily glamorous jobs, but the are jobs.  Some are part time, so people work more than one of them to get their 40 hours a week in.  If somebody WANTS to work, there's plenty of jobs available. Not arguing this.



Or you can spend that free time making money... Yes. The returns (time/energy/quality of life) for living on less start to really dimish below $12-25,000 a year depending on one lives. Conversely I hear each dollar above $75,000 a year for the 90% buys less happiness/peace of mind/quality of live/contentness than the dollar before. Look up the Law of Dimishing Returns.


This is one place I TOTALLY disagree...  EVERY able bodied person can land a minimum wage job any time they want one.  I'm almost 70 years old, and not so able bodied any more, but I could go to any decent sized town in America and and land a no experience necessary, minimum wage job, in a single day, with no resume, no nothing, other than being a warm body willing to show up for work the next day. Not arguing this, if theres a will theres a way. Minimum wage shouldn't be the end for the means, if one desires to work less and play more think about moving up the socio-economic ladder to a wage of $20, $30, and beyond. A vandweller who works a job/career where full time workers pull $100,000 a year could work 1-2 months for $10-20,000 and LIVE the rest of the year reletively comfortably.

There are no circumstances forcing you to be poor, it is a choice you have made for yourself. No but it's really hard to break the poverty cycle without a hand up. You can choose to have a job and money just as easily.  It is you that has convinced yourself that there are no jobs, when in reality there is no shortage of them, and new ones popping up constantly. I can say with certainty that there are less jobs per-capita in this phony economic recovery vs in 2005 (the peak of the subprime Ponzi scheme). There is ALWAYS a need for minimum wage workers. and the truth is that many of those companies are having a very hard time filling those positions, because people don't want to work for minimum wage.

Poor is a relative term.  I live like a king, and it cost me a little under $600/mo for all of last year.  In an apartment, it would have probably cost me three or more times that, which is why people don't like the minimum wage jobs, because just one job won't pay all the bills.  With low expenses though, the value of a minimum wage job soars. Agreed, due to the low overhead we vandwellers have we can have the same quality of life for a fraction of the cost of a conventional house dweller, for most of us even better since we don't burn our time upkeeping a big house. 


But those pennies also buy a lot more, because their cost of living is lower.  Much like the life of a van dweller, since our costs are so much lower than most people's, our money goes further. But the majority of people in 3rd world countries live worse than Americans living on $7000 of welfare a year. This needs to end, as every human being deserves the same chance at having the same kind of beautiful experiences some of us take for granted. We need to give the people in 3rd world contries a hand up, teaching them how to help themselves; loan the resources/tools to establish clean food and water, then we teach them civics and how to build long lasting and reliable infrastructure like we have in the 1st world. Once they have their basic needs met they can tackle the next level on The Hirachial Structure of Needs.

There's work available, the problem is that the costs of living are outweighing the benefits. Used to be you could spend 20-30% of your take home pay for an apartment. Now? It takes 1/3 or 1/2  So work for $1,320 a month and have $700 go out the door for your rent (Utilities included)...Food is next and then car? (I'd doubt they can get one) This is the reason that people don't want min wage jobs.
This is the crime. The American promise has been broken, have a great career, pull great money and not be able to live in a great neighboorhood, in a great house and have the kids go to great schools. Look up The Restless Project

A breast pump can be picked up for about $10.   :dodgy:

Hyperbole...

Please link to the page where I can buy that $10 breastpump you mention, today. This means not from second hand stores, Craigslist, yard sales, or closeout stores.

As for the 200 hour estimate, I guesstimated it using my knowlege on the time costs of dumpster diving, DIY projects, extensive internet research etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the couple who built the breastpump on Extreme Cheapskates spent more than 400 hours on it.

 

[debit.servus]

I came up with a phrase that sums up penny pinching: treat time like it's worthless, but money like it's priceless.

 

[debit.servus]

Does anybody want to refute what I wrote? Usually when the conversation goes quiet right after I speak, I am right.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Why argue with the master

 

[GotSmart]

Why argue with the master

Expert on all things including breast pumps. 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nuk-Pump-N-Store-Breast-Milk-Storage-Kit-BPA-Free/49333230

 

[TMG51]

Does anybody want to refute what I wrote? Usually when the conversation goes quiet right after I speak, I am right.

Or, others tire of you not listening.

 

[debit.servus]

Ok, a breastpump can cost as little as $10 at an everyday low price. I never researched the cost of buying a breastpump so I just threw the $100 number out there.

The amount of work those Extreme Cheapskates went to to save $10 is well, extreme. I wouldn't be surprised if Child Protective Services took their baby away (after their neighbors/friends/family watched them on Extreme Cheapskates), and if so they're entralled as the cost of raising their baby is now a fraction of the cost before CPS took their newborn away!!! Now that's savings (to the Extreme Cheapskates who built the breastpump)!!!!

The whole objective of this thread is to teach people the value of time AND money. I am sharing knowlege that will help people not look back on their life at age 75 and wish they didn't devote most of the waking hours of their life scrimping and saving instead of LIVING. Spending time (decent percentage of your awake life) to take advantage of every money saving trick in the book is a shitty life.

I see this now when I am 22 and opt to work more and pinch dollars than to not work more and pinch pennies. I am working to be rich, in money AND free time. Pinching pennies to not need to increase income (working to save money) goes against this. Same goes for having six figures in the bank while freezing in the dark.

Sure one can live on $5000 a year, but is it a fun life? My dream life will cost more but is worth every minute of time I have to sell (every minute working a JOB) to live my dream life.

It's better to work more to boost income so you don't have to be super frugal.

 

[Raven+Squid]

The value of your time at work is what your willing to put up with or content with.

The value of your time as a whole relative to your time on this planet is priceless.

 

[debit.servus]

DS,

I have worked for 40 years and am now semi-retired. I appreciate your "sharing knowledge" in an effort to educate me but I would be interested to know what real world work experience your advice is based on.

Your interest with people that want to save money (for what ever their reason) borders on obsession.

Guy

_____"Real world work experience"? For the last 2 years I learned to weigh the cost of something in money, time, energy, stress, suffering, shivering, sweating, swealtering, swearing, screaming, bleeding and crying (not literally but you get my point). It hurts me to see people treat their money like it's priceless but their time like it's worthless, when time is your most valuable asset. It's their life, and it's their time they are spending to save pennies; not mine. Time is NOT money, as one can not save up time like one can save up money.

_____I've known people who watched every dime, at the expense of their relationships, quality of life and free time. One of those people was a paralized from the chest down woman named Susan Steffans, who depended on 24 hour care. My mom worked for her for 15 years, because other jobs required HS diploma which she never got (born and raised in Mennonite Mexico, she immigrated to the USA about age 30). Susan was a master at working the system and pulling strings to get her way, and watched every dime. Like receiving $1000 or so a month SSI disability and IBM pension, while pulling over $1000 a month from her internet based freelance work; while owning a modest suburban house with over $1,000,000 in various bank accounts. She was very stingy, and when it came to her custom handicap van she would watch the fuel gauge like a hawk. She would only use the vans A/C on the hottest days and keep the radio off to save fuel.
_____She would always shortchange her workers and hope they didn't notice it, especially my mom due to favortism. To cut to the chase, she fired my mom and three months later she died due to infection. Before Susan fired mom, my mom took great care to kept that infection at bay by keeping the area clean, wiping away pus and applying topical medication whenever needed to treat it; Susans health went downhill soon after firing mom. When she died she had about $1,500,000 in total net worth; which she couldn't take with her when leaving the physical plane. Theres more elements to the story if you want to hear it.

There are people who travel across town to save 50 cents on a can of soup but won't go across town to save $1000 on a new car.

There are people who freeze in the dark while having $200,000 in the bank.

There are people who build a breastpump from dumpster dived parts to save $10 on a ready-made one.

There are people like the Cheapskate Wrestler who give up their dreams to save a buck, and will deeply regret it at age 70.

_____There are people who refuse to go out with friends or have a night out due to it costing money (no matter how little money it costs).

_____These people will wish they didn't devote their lives to scrimping, scrounging and penny pinching somewhere around age 70. I am sharing these insights in hopes I save even one person from having this regret. I am sharing the tricks to "save money AND time while living it up!" so people know how to avoid "saving money no matter the other costs (pinching pennies)". Also to help people find a better balance between free time, income and quality of life.

The value of your time at work is what your willing to put up with or content with.
 
The value of your time as a whole relative to your time on this planet is priceless.

_____What do you mean with the first one?

_____The second one is what I am getting at. Every human being has about 80 years of time, give or take a couple dozen years. Doesn't it make sense to maximize having the positive experiences in life even if they cost lots of money (provided one can afford it without hardship)?????????

Here is an exercise: 
_____I could live on $5000 a year, sitting in the van on a plot of land in the American Southwest; doing very little, slowly.
_____-OR-
_____I could perpetually explore the US and CANADA (and maybe MEXICO too if I can travel in a group of other "gringoes" to have strength and safety in numbers) traveling the north in the summer and the south in the winter; on my own schedule and in my own bed each night in a luxurious homebuilt rig starting at $10,000 a year.

_____Which is the fuller and richer life?

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Not to be a mean statement, but you sit in your parent's home and preach to those of us who are out here living our dreams on what we have earned.

Not to mention, many of us have kids older than you who have been taught good values.

Most of us learned the value of time and money before you were born and have earned the life we live.

I hope you can catch up with us one fine day

 

[GotSmart]

Is he going O.G. on us?    :-/

 

[Raven+Squid]

Here is an exercise: 
_____I could live on $5000 a year, sitting in the van on a plot of land in the American Southwest; doing very little, slowly.
_____-OR-
_____I could perpetually explore the US and CANADA (and maybe MEXICO too if I can travel in a group of other "gringoes" to have strength and safety in numbers) traveling the north in the summer and the south in the winter; on my own schedule and in my own bed each night in a luxurious homebuilt rig starting at $10,000 a year.

_____Which is the fuller and richer life?

Which is the fuller and richer life? 

Hmmm, it would seem that if one was at peace on their current path the exact scenario is irrelevant.

You need to realize that little curves and cliffs sometimes present themselves in life that may push you away from your original goals.

Enjoy the moment. It's pretty cool.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

There are people who travel across town to save 50 cents on a can of soup but won't go across town to save $1000 on a new car.

There are people who freeze in the dark while having $200,000 in the bank.

There are people who build a breastpump from dumpster dived parts to save $10 on a ready-made one.

There are people like the Cheapskate Wrestler who give up their dreams to save a buck, and will deeply regret it at age 70.

_____There are people who refuse to go out with friends or have a night out due to it costing money (no matter how little money it costs).

_____These people will wish they didn't devote their lives to scrimping, scrounging and penny pinching somewhere around age 70. I am sharing these insights in hopes I save even one person from having this regret. I am sharing the tricks to "save money AND time while living it up!" so people know how to avoid "saving money no matter the other costs (pinching pennies)". Also to help people find a better balance between free time, income and quality of life.

Here is an exercise: 
_____I could live on $5000 a year, sitting in the van on a plot of land in the American Southwest; doing very little, slowly.
_____-OR-
_____I could perpetually explore the US and CANADA (and maybe MEXICO too if I can travel in a group of other "gringoes" to have strength and safety in numbers) traveling the north in the summer and the south in the winter; on my own schedule and in my own bed each night in a luxurious homebuilt rig starting at $10,000 a year.

_____Which is the fuller and richer life?

You do realize no two people are alike right?  Some people like "pinching pennies" It's exciting, it's a challenge, it's a game, and it's fun to them.  These people will not automatically wish they lived and traveled in a van instead.  They may get a lot more comfort knowing they are leaving their kids with something  when they go. 

Work isn't the dreaded end all be all you've made it out to be in your head.  It's doesn't only account for wasted time you could have been using to fulfill your life in some other manor.  You can actually enjoy working.  I've never worked a day in my life that I didn't thoroughly enjoy.  I started working with my dad at 12 years old.  I worked full time with him every summer and more often than not on Saturdays during the school year.  I could install carpets and hardwood on my own by the time I was 16.  Some of the best memories of my life are believe it or not "Working!"  I got to spend a lot of time with my dad and made a little money while doing it.  At 18 I started working in a cabinet shop.  That strong work ethic my dad instilled in me allowed me to work my way up to shop foreman by 22.  I loved that job and met my now best friend while working there.  We'd work 12+ hour days together, simply because we loved it and didn't want to be doing anything else. Where else can you hang out with your best friend, get paid, and paid well to do it?  I couldn't learn new skills and techniques fast enough, I absorbed as much as I could from the older guys that worked there.   I made many life long friendships and business connections with the people I worked with.  I haven't worked at that shop in 10 years and still talk and hang out with half the people that worked there.  The owner of the shop is like a second dad to me.  I call him or he calls me every few months to catch up.  I can use his shop for my own personal use whenever I like.  Ten years of my life were spent in that shop 40-70 hours a week.  I don't regret a single day of it, and I won't when I'm 70 either.  All those years of "pinching pennies" is now going to allow me to travel free as a bird, not having to worry about filling up 55 gallon drums of fuel behind my parents house to get it while it's "on sale" 

If you find something you like to do, you'll want to be doing it.  If you want to be doing it, by default you're going to get good at it.  The better you get at it, the more they will pay you to do it. Making money doing something you enjoy will never be a waste of time.  Figure out your own path and go all in towards it.  Don't get so caught up with what you perceive other's to be doing wrong.  After all, they may be looking at you and your lifestyle and wondering how they can save you from having regrets when you're 70

 

[jimindenver]

When it comes to saving money, some sacrifice to save, others find ways to not sacrifice.

The best way to save anything is to not to waste what you have already.

 

[debit.servus]

You do realize no two people are alike right? 

I sure do.

Some people like "pinching pennies" It's exciting, it's a challenge, it's a game, and it's fun to them.

These people will not automatically wish they lived and traveled in a van instead. 

They may get a lot more comfort knowing they are leaving their kids with something  when they go. 

Work isn't the dreaded end all be all you've made it out to be in your head.  It's doesn't only account for wasted time you could have been using to fulfill your life in some other manor.  You can actually enjoy working.

Well it's not like food, fuel and housing falls out of the sky; so most of us need to work to fufill our needs and wants. I know what you're saying; If a person loves their job, they never work a day in their life. For me that is being an full-time electronic musican.

 I've never worked a day in my life that I didn't thoroughly enjoy.  I started working with my dad at 12 years old.  I worked full time with him every summer and more often than not on Saturdays during the school year.  I could install carpets and hardwood on my own by the time I was 16.  Some of the best memories of my life are believe it or not "Working!"  I got to spend a lot of time with my dad and made a little money while doing it.  At 18 I started working in a cabinet shop.  That strong work ethic my dad instilled in me allowed me to work my way up to shop foreman by 22.  I loved that job and met my now best friend while working there.  We'd work 12+ hour days together, simply because we loved it and didn't want to be doing anything else. Where else can you hang out with your best friend, get paid, and paid well to do it?  I couldn't learn new skills and techniques fast enough, I absorbed as much as I could from the older guys that worked there.   I made many life long friendships and business connections with the people I worked with.  I haven't worked at that shop in 10 years and still talk and hang out with half the people that worked there.  The owner of the shop is like a second dad to me.  I call him or he calls me every few months to catch up.  I can use his shop for my own personal use whenever I like.  Ten years of my life were spent in that shop 40-70 hours a week.  I don't regret a single day of it, and I won't when I'm 70 either.

Cool Story Bro. Glad you were born into a functional family, and could start working with your dad at age 12. You had great people with you all your life and "worked" with them.

All those years of "pinching pennies" is now going to allow me to travel free as a bird, not having to worry about filling up 55 gallon drums of fuel behind my parents house to get it while it's "on sale" 

Did your coworkers, great friends and family work together save money at every turn? By being each others social network when it came to savings at the supermarket to savings on cars & homes???

I don't have that, just articles on the internet about money matters and stories involving penny pinchers and extreme cheapskates. I decided to not scrimp & scrounge if I can avoid it, am still going to save where it's time cost effective.

Gas and diesel are on sale, and this is a great time to stock up for many dollars worth of savings! I did factor the cost of the drums into the savings, and the drums full of diesel will pay for themselves when diesel is back at $4 or more a gallon (If I get down to the CHEVRON and fill them up at $3 a gallon)! This is dollar pinching. Look after the dollars as the pennies can go **** themselves.

If you find something you like to do, you'll want to be doing it.  If you want to be doing it, by default you're going to get good at it.  The better you get at it, the more they will pay you to do it. Making money doing something you enjoy will never be a waste of time.  Figure out your own path and go all in towards it. 

That path is being an Electronic Musician, which is my real job title. That is on hiatus as there is tons of work to dismantle the back of the DODGE, get rid of the DODGE in less than 3 weeks and fit out the FORD for my Canadian summer.

Don't get so caught up with what you perceive other's to be doing wrong.  After all, they may be looking at you and your lifestyle and wondering how they can save you from having regrets when you're 70.

Please help point out things so I can have zero regrets at age 70.

When it comes to saving money, some sacrifice to save, others find ways to not sacrifice.

The best way to save anything is to not to waste what you have already.

I am part of the latter, finding ways to not sacrifice.

Agree, best way to save is to not waste what you already have.