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Seraphim said:
The IOUs work because there's faith in the system....
I think the main reason our fiat system works is because it's not any worse than all the other fiat systems out there. If you're worried about the value of the dollar, a good place to park your money is .22 ammo. But, who wants to carry all that stuff around?
 
If you can find any .22 ammo!!

The ultimate solution to debt is inflation. 10% a year for ten years=problem solved, no more federal debt. Of course the working poor (which is a LOT of us) and anyone on a fixed income is devastated by it.

Bob
 
akrvbob said:
The ultimate solution to debt is inflation. 10% a year for ten years=problem solved, no more federal debt. Of course the working poor (which is a LOT of us) and anyone on a fixed income is devastated by it.
Social security checks will go up if we have inflation, it's automatic.

My whole point was best put by Bob Marley:
Don't you worry, about a thing,
Cause every little thing, is gonna be all right.
 
akrvbob said:
If you can find any .22 ammo!!

The ultimate solution to debt is inflation. 10% a year for ten years=problem solved, no more federal debt. Of course the working poor (which is a LOT of us) and anyone on a fixed income is devastated by it.

Bob

I've got to think that through a bit. - but it's late lol. Past my bedtime


But, while inflation may help reduce past debt after borrowing has ceased, such as in the years after WWII, it does nothing when he government continues borrowing - increasing the debt.

Best thought I can come up with at he moment...
 
Pretty hairy last couple of days on the market. Lets call it "Oil prices, the good and the bad".
 
Mac J said:
Pretty hairy last couple of days on the market. Lets call it "Oil prices, the good and the bad".

Just the Saudis playing games with Iran, Venezuala and Russia. Enjoy the low gas prices for now, and watch for a buying opportunity in foreign oil stocks. Even the Saudis can't afford to to keep OPEC prices low forever. Well, maybe they COULD, but they won't. Price of OPEC oil will go back up with a vengeance.
 
akrvbob said:
If you can find any .22 ammo!!

The ultimate solution to debt is inflation. 10% a year for ten years=problem solved, no more federal debt. Of course the working poor (which is a LOT of us) and anyone on a fixed income is devastated by it.

Bob

Yes, there are serfs in the USA in the year 2014.
 
Seraphim said:
Even the Saudis can't afford to to keep OPEC prices low forever... Price of OPEC oil will go back up with a vengeance.
I'm not so sure. Fracking has caused an increase in supply, we don't really have any wars, and all our conservation efforts are paying off. People say OPEC is trying to hurt Russia, trying to hurt our oil industry. I suspect that with the price this low, if they were to limit their production they wouldn't be getting enough money to be happy.
 
HarmonicaBruce said:
Social security checks will go up if we have inflation, it's automatic.

My whole point was best put by Bob Marley:
Don't you worry, about a thing,
Cause every little thing, is gonna be all right.

I wouldn't count on continued SS COLAs, especially not automatic ones. There is already fevered discussion about SS running out of money in as little - or on the average of - 20 years. Viable solutions increased contributions and reduced benefits. There are no policies in place, that I could ever find, which permits the use of other federal funds to shore up SS. Last time SS overreached its funds, it was permitted to borrow more. Borrowing to make payments is a dangerous process.

And the GOP is taking control of Congress in a couple of weeks. I don't think they're gunning for SS, but it won't be the high point of their agenda either.

I've also been thinking about Bobs comment on inflation as a solution for the national debt, and reading different analysts take, and the bottom line - as best as I can determine - is that solution may or may not be viable. Even if it were to actually work, the other undesirable results could offset the gain.

The best way to control debt is to not get into it, in the first place.


HarmonicaBruce said:
I'm not so sure. Fracking has caused an increase in supply, we don't really have any wars, and all our conservation efforts are paying off. People say OPEC is trying to hurt Russia, trying to hurt our oil industry. I suspect that with the price this low, if they were to limit their production they wouldn't be getting enough money to be happy.

The current low cost of oil is hurting the fracking industry, as well.

But I'm not so much concerned about the recent market dropped - you always have your nervous speculators who see doom and gloom in everything, and their knee jerk reactions are responsible for the market's daily ebb and rise.


Oil's at what - $68 a barrel?

Good price. Buy.


It's not going to stay there...
 
The debt boat has already sailed and she is full to the brim!! We're loading up the next boat as fast as we can!!

The artificially low interest rates are the only thing keeping us afloat but they can't last forever. When they go up to reasonable levels our interest payments alone will require massive inflation let alone the debt itself.

The fundamentals of our economy our profoundly unsound.
Bob
 
akrvbob said:
The debt boat has already sailed and she is full to the brim!! We're loading up the next boat as fast as we can!!

The artificially low interest rates are the only thing keeping us afloat but they can't last forever. When they go up to reasonable levels our interest payments alone will require massive inflation let alone the debt itself.

The fundamentals of our economy our profoundly unsound.
Bob

+1

And the government borrowed and spent too much money trying to 'fix' things that would have inherently corrected themselves - eventually. IMO.
 
akrvbob said:
The artificially low interest rates are the only thing keeping us afloat but they can't last forever.
Why not?
akrvbob said:
The fundamentals of our economy our profoundly unsound.
In what way?
I claim the economy has never been better. We grow far more food per acre than ever before in history, and we do it with virtually no manpower being involved. We produce everything we want and need with very little effort. These are good things.
All my life I assumed I would never collect a dime of social security. They're not going to stop paying social security. They've been talking about how social security is going to run out of money ever since I was a teenager. Ronald Reagan wanted to have future recipients start collecting a few months later, and the politicians were all over him about it.
Houses? You can buy a house in Detroit for less than a good suit. Medical care you say? Suppose I need a heart transplant, what am I going to do? Well what did your grandfather do? He died, that's what he did. Just 100 years ago the richest person in the world couldn't afford a heart transplant, because one had never been done.
So people, enjoy life. Listen to the immortal Bob Marley, and Budda, don't worry, be happy.
 
HarmonicaBruce said:
Why not?
In what way?
I claim the economy has never been better. We grow far more food per acre than ever before in history, and we do it with virtually no manpower being involved. We produce everything we want and need with very little effort. These are good things.
All my life I assumed I would never collect a dime of social security. They're not going to stop paying social security. They've been talking about how social security is going to run out of money ever since I was a teenager. Ronald Reagan wanted to have future recipients start collecting a few months later, and the politicians were all over him about it.
Houses? You can buy a house in Detroit for less than a good suit. Medical care you say? Suppose I need a heart transplant, what am I going to do? Well what did your grandfather do? He died, that's what he did. Just 100 years ago the richest person in the world couldn't afford a heart transplant, because one had never been done.
So people, enjoy life. Listen to the immortal Bob Marley, and Budda, don't worry, be happy.

Not worrying and I'm definitely enjoying life. That doesn't mean one can't see the weak structure of a house beneath the well-painted veneer.

And SS DID run out of money, and had to borrow and make concessions. It's happened before and will happen again - to a greater degree.

Food grown with less manpower and a larger workforce means fewer jobs. All things are a balance.

We do NOT produce everything we want - we buy a great deal from overseas markets. Yearly we become more dependent on the global market and less self sufficient. We've already shifted from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy.

Bruce, I think you only see what affects you personally, right now. Not a criticism. Just a perception. But everything - good or bad - has a consequence elsewhere. For profit, there must be loss. Interest rates affect borrowers and savers differently - the very movement of interest rates affects the dynamics of the economy. A gain here creates a loss there.

And most people don't realize how much they are affected by the ripples of a rock tossed in a part of the pool they can't see.

Not doomsaying - it's not the end of the economic world. Nothing to fret about - what happens happens. But to ignore a pothole in the road and suffer suspension damage when a little foresight would have let one miss the pothole completely...*shrug*

Pretending there's no potential problem by closing ones eyes and loudly singing 'Be Happy'...

Enjoy what's good to you, but don't deny the possibility of change. Everything shifts, changes, arcs like a pendulum, pivots like a teeter totter. Things WILL change, one direction or another.


Not mixing my metaphors, am I???


Oil prices will go up because oil producers want the highest possible profit. As soon as the Saudis are done playing their game with the Shia dominant producers, they will slow production and increase the price. Profit is profit.

Interest rates will rise because banks and people aren't making money on their savings and CDs. Everyone with a bank savings account is losing money to inflation every year - at a quick guess over 1.5% per annum. People will get tired of it. It s economic disaster for the Feds to maintain a zero prime rate. Since fixed returns are so low for banks, they're increasing fees for services to make up the difference.


There are other economic reasons based on market trends, but most people erroneously think if they don't invest in the market, the market doesn't affect them.
 
HarmonicaBruce said:
Why not?
In what way?
I claim the economy has never been better. (Except for the 23 percent of Americans who want and need a job but can't find one.) We grow far more food per acre than ever before in history, and we do it with virtually no manpower being involved. We produce everything we want and need with very little effort. These are good things. (Mostly from China)
All my life I assumed I would never collect a dime of social security. They're not going to stop paying social security. They've been talking about how social security is going to run out of money ever since I was a teenager. (Humankind suffers from a "normalcy bias". We can't believe something is possible even when it's happening right before our eyes. The danger is inflation. Don't let these temporary low oil prices lull you into a state of complacency. What good will a $1500 SocSec check do you if gas goes to $10 a gallon and a loaf of bread is $20, etc., etc., etc. Don't say it can't happen. Fiat currency doesn't have a great track record)
Ronald Reagan wanted to have future recipients start collecting a few months later, and the politicians were all over him about it.
Houses? You can buy a house in Detroit for less than a good suit. (I lived 60 miles north of Detroit. I bought a house eleven years ago for $35,000. I just sold it a few months ago for $4,500 because that's all it was worth, and I remodeled the inside. Do you honestly think that's a Good Thing?) Medical care you say? Suppose I need a heart transplant, what am I going to do? Well what did your grandfather do? He died, that's what he did. Just 100 years ago the richest person in the world couldn't afford a heart transplant, because one had never been done. (Except now it's no longer your sole choice whether you get that transplant or other specialty treatment. You give up that right when you accept government health care. You now have the right to wait, and hope you don't die in the meantime. Ask a veteran what their experience has been.)
So people, enjoy life. Listen to the immortal Bob Marley, and Budda, don't worry, be happy.
 
Dust-In-the-Wind said:
I claim the economy has never been better. (Except for the 23 percent of Americans who want and need a job but can't find one.)
You can look at things in different ways. Does that mean that 77 percent of Americans who want, or need, a better job, can find one. That sounds like a pretty good economy to me.

Dust-In-the-Wind said:
... from China...
Yes, everything is made in China. We can make stuff here, we always have and we still do, but we can't make it as cheap. So, because of all the cheap stuff from China, we all have more stuff and live better. So why aren't people happy about it?

Dust-In-the-Wind said:
What good will a $1500 SocSec check do you if gas goes to $10 a gallon and a loaf of bread is $20, etc.
Social security goes up with inflation. No problem mon!

Dust-In-the-Wind said:
Fiat currency doesn't have a great track record
Like Kieth Jackson used to say, Whoa Nellie! Currently, the United Nations recognizes 180 different circulating currencies in the world today. Every single one of them is fiat.

Dust-In-the-Wind said:
I lived 60 miles north of Detroit. I bought a house eleven years ago for $35,000. I just sold it a few months ago for $4,500 because that's all it was worth, and I remodeled the inside. Do you honestly think that's a Good Thing?
It is for the person buying it. Are you talking about Saginaw, or Bay City?

Seraphim said:
Bruce, I think you only see what affects you personally, right now. Not a criticism. Just a perception.
In 1999 I married a Russian. You should hear some of the stories. They grew their own food, mostly potatoes. Everyone was given a little plot of land. They had potatoes all over their apartment, and they worked real hard to have enough left in the spring to plant that year's crop. She had a job like mine, database administrator. I was making over 100k, she was making 25 cents per hour. That's $10 per week. A beer in a bar cost the same there as it did here, about 2 bucks. They bought their milk from a woman who owned a cow, she would bring it herself. The customers would give her food scraps to feed the cow. They didn't have farmers markets, because if they tried to have one, guys with guns would shake down all the vendors. I took her and her kids to a fair and we watched a demolition derby. She said if the event were held in Russia, they would repair every one of those wrecked cars.

THAT is a crappy economy.

She had to abandon the apartment she owned. In Russia, if you have kids, you're not allowed to sell your home unless you have another.

If we live long enough, we'll all look back and say these were the good old days.
 
HarmonicaBruce said:
If we live long enough, we'll all look back and say these were the good old days.

Yes, of course, for those with discernment. The poorest of Americans lives a better life today than the king of England of a century ago. Turn the tap, water comes, flush the bath, waste is removed. In 1900 USA, a family's food budget was 40% of household income, today it's 8%. Doom and gloom.
 
Yes the budget went from 40% food to 50% taxes. ThAts a great deal!!!
 
Comparing the current US economic status to historical data is like comparing apples to peaches, as is comparing it to other failing economies. It's a given: the average lifestyle is better now than it was in the 1900s, generally thanks to science and technology. The U.S. is still one of the top two economies in the world, and, globally, even those living below the 'poverty line' in the US have it better than those living in third world developing countries. These two facts are beyond question. It's also a logical fallacy to compare two different types of economies, such as Russian and US.

The point is to look to the future, not the past. The past is history. We do not wish to have our economy retrograde to past standards, which is the true concern.

77% of people who want a job can find one is a GOOD economy? A 23% unemployment rate is not a good economy by any reasonable standard, Bruce. You make too many unreasonable assumptions, and quote stats I seem unable to verify. I can tell from experience many families have food budgets excessively higher than 8% of their income. Ours is over 10%, for two people, and our income is median or better. We also dont splurge. Lower incomes and larger families will have a much higher percentage.

It's nice that life is good for you, Bruce. It's not as nice for everyone. Those 23% - your figure - who want/need jobs but can't find them, and can't afford to to live off the public dole, even those who actually qualify to do so, probably disagree with you. As do the part-time employees with no benefits, uncertain hours, and several children to feed. As I said, it's nice that life is good for you. It's good for me too. But you and I aren't the only people living in this country. If/When the economy falters, you and I aren't the people who will suffer ... more. But, apparently that's not the focus of your concern. Everything should be fine and dandy for them, since the economy is so good - right?

I'm no philanthropist, but I try to consider them, as well, - actually especially - when gauging the status of the economy.

And I sincerely hope your SS continues to keep up with inflation. I personally doubt it will continue to do so, but, neither of us have Crystal balls. So we will see.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business...eats-how-america-spends-money-on-food/273811/


Above article about familial food expenditures in the US


Correction - apologies Bruce. You did not make the 8% comment.
 
I agree seraphim. The 'two cars in every Don't pester me abo and a chicken in every pot' never materialized and one income families are a thing of the past. When the majority of the population can have one parent go to work and one parent stay at home and raise the kids and teach them what school does not it will not be a good economy


Damn phone. Disregard the 'don't pester me' paste. my phonetics bat poop crazy sometimes. Point is our families resources keep getting smaller and our expenses keep getting higher. Employees raises don't nearly keep up with inflation.
 
Since this thread was started for the purpose of discussing the stock market, not the economy, I start a thread to discuss the state of US Economics. I suggest we continue the discussion there...


I agree cdiggy
 

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