The Ins & Outs of Diesel vs Gasoline?

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AngryVanMan, that was a very nice post for those of us who are automotively-challenged!

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort.
 
Here's one anecdotal "test case", if anyone's interested.  This is my F250 I use to haul equipment, gravel, mulch and such.

I've been running a 7.3 IDI in my truck I bought around 2000, it's a 1988 model.  Never seen 100,000 miles, but it's seen 99,999 about 5 times now (5 digit odo).  The most money I've ever spent was on upgrades - Banks Turbocharger Kit(2K), Pump and Injectors ($800).  If block worm ever takes out a cylinder, I can get a prepped block and rebuild it for less than 2K, or buy a parts truck or two for less than 3K.  I do all the basics that someone keeping a vehicle for the long haul does, upgraded fuel filtration system, bypass oil filter, lubricity additive in the tank, preventive replacement of oil cooler o-rings, new radiator, and gauges for oil and water temp and oil pressure (factory idiot gauges are useless).  That along with oil and coolant analysis has kept it running fine with no major unexpected expenses.  It would last a lot longer if I didn't put the turbo on, probably.  

There's only a few things you need to watch on the old 7.3, and that's for poor starts, dripping, stuck or bad pattern injectors (smoke on start, slight misfires, roughness at any RPM), SCA levels in the coolant, and oil contamination from the cooler on older trucks.  As long as you don't run it with any of those problems, it's usually in for the long haul.  

I've put a lot of money into it over time, but that would be true for any vehicle I've ever owned - preventative maintenance and upgrades aren't cheap - but they are a heck of a lot cheaper than a new truck.  I haven't spent half what one new truck would cost and this thing is going on 30 years old.  In fact, on the "normal" 3-5 year warranty expired buy a new vehicle treadmill many people are on, I could probably rebuild the engine every other year and come out ahead vs. buy a new truck with a warranty each time it expires.  But, my paint isn't as shiny as it once was.
 
diesels stink,literally,i can smell one start up from 100 yards away
get that stuff on your cloths and you have to wash at least 2x to get the smell out
and then there is the power issue or lack of,without a turbo and upgrades there isnt much there and when you do you start to overwhelm the design,not a fan of passenger vehicle diesels

sb chevy's are dime a dozen
 
Gary68:

Now hold on just one darn stinking minute abt your smelly comments regarding diesels . . . I have two diesels (Excursion and Peterbilt) and have been told numerous times that I don't smell any worse than GotSmart, masterplumber, Flying Curbmaster, BradKW, Cyndi, highdesertranger, Tjaybird, or Stern Wake.

I think perhaps you have a case of "injector envy!"

:D
 
About my only experience I have with diesels is my little Bolens G214 Tractor with a Iseki 3 cylinder.  I've never owned a vehicle with a diesel, but i've always wanted one.  Can't beat the sound of a diesel among their other benefits.  

Speedhighway has two of my favorites. A Peterbuilt and an Excursion.  I'm thinking about seeing if he wants to adopt me.
 

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speedhighway46 said:
Now hold on just one darn stinking minute abt your smelly comments regarding diesels . . . I have two diesels (Excursion and Peterbilt) and have been told numerous times that I don't smell any worse than GotSmart, masterplumber, Flying Curbmaster, BradKW, Cyndi, highdesertranger, Tjaybird, or Stern Wake.


Well, speaking only for myself, I'm afraid you're setting the bar pretty low...just ask the poor fellows at Sherwin Williams what I did to their back room this morning...   :D
 
speedhighway46 said:
Gary68:

have been told numerous times that I don't smell any worse than GotSmart, masterplumber, Flying Curbmaster, BradKW, Cyndi, highdesertranger, Tjaybird, or Stern Wake.


:D

yea,not really something you should be bragging about :p
 
I hope you don't smell worse than me, because if you did the pigs would kick you out of the sty. highdesertranger
 
highdesertranger said:
lot of haters here.  highdesertranger

I don't think it is a matter of being a hater. I am not the only one who has had a bad experience with a diesel. So let's not just look at the advantages that diesels have, but some of the disadvantages as well.  Probably most people here are not mechanics. Maybe you can rebuild your engine for $2k, but what is it going to cost someone passing through a strange town? 

There are exceptions to every rule. You might have a ford 7.3 with 500k miles, but someone also had a ford 6.0 that didn't make it to 150k. So for me, buying a diesel with 200k on it is not worth the risk of what it might cost for a repair. I shudder at the thought of encouraging someone on a limited income to spend top dollar to buy one, and then when it breaks, there is no way for them to afford the repair. In some cases, they just lost their home.

If you are willing to encourage someone to buy a diesel, are you also willing to help them with repairs? Oh well I didn't exactly tell them to buy that one, I can hear it now.
 
Unless someone is comfortable with the technology of diesel, I don't think it's a wise idea to push them in that direction.

I grew up in the garage working on gas engines and while I am now baffled by the new technology and don't do any of my own repairs, I still have that knowledge base. When confronted with a problem with a gas engine, I know enough to make decisions like 'pull over now' or 'nurse it to a garage'.

That knowledge base also comes in darn handy when dealing with mechanics although the one that does most of my work rolls his eyes at me on occasion... :D :D . It's kept me out of harms' way when dealing with unscrupulous repair shops on the road and I've encountered more than a few of those over the years.

Truthfully, I don't have a clue how a diesel engine differs from a gas engine and at this point I've too many other things to try to keep up with and learn (like my darn telephones) to have the time or the will to learn diesel.

And then there is the cost of repairs which can be astronomical as we've seen in the previous posts.

For me personally, gas makes the most sense for my needs.
 
Danny, I tend to agree with you on pushing someone into a choice that may not be for them, that's why I strongly cautioned against buying one to "save money."  Financial responsibility is a huge issue for people in general in this society, and for better or worse many do not care to learn about any of the technology they depend on for their survival and well being, vehicles included!

Aloof disregard for the nuts and bolts of anything you use is a luxury that you'll have to pay for, no matter what fuel is in the tank.  Someone with no concern for the maintenance, care, or basic workings of their economy gasoline car can get raked over the coals just as readily as someone with a more expensive vehicle.  They're not going to know if that sudden no-start condition is a blown ignition fuse or a slipped timing belt.  Running across an opportunist at the wrong time will be an expensive lesson they might not actually learn, since they won't ever know they've been fleeced.

If you talk to someone and say that a diesel might meet their needs, and they buy one failing to do basic research, for instance about the relatively troublesome 6.0, dealer "mechanics", reasonable diagnosis' and cost of repair, will you feel guilty or responsible for that?  What if they overextended themselves on the purchase and didn't account for an appropriate size emergency fund to cover the potential hazards?  These are adults we're talking about.
 
Thanks to AngryVanMan for an excellent summary of diesel vs gas.

One thing I have not found is a per mile cost of driving a diesel pickup over the life of the truck.  I have good numbers for the cost of driving a gas engined truck but would like a comparison.  In my experience (living in Minnesota) my trucks are more expensive to fix than they are worth after about 12 years due to corrosion from salt mostly, so an engine going 300,000+ miles would do me no good.  The body, suspension and drive train are no longer worth the effort of fixing.  I love the idea of a diesel (especially the older mechanical ones) but just can't make the numbers work.

  -- Spiff
 
AngryVanMan said:
If you talk to someone and say that a diesel might meet their needs, and they buy one failing to do basic research, for instance about the relatively troublesome 6.0, dealer "mechanics", reasonable diagnosis' and cost of repair, will you feel guilty or responsible for that?  What if they overextended themselves on the purchase and didn't account for an appropriate size emergency fund to cover the potential hazards?  These are adults we're talking about.

My beef is more along the lines of unintentional misrepresentation by omission. People who promote diesels tell others how wonderful they are, great fuel economy, longevity, power, etc. so others don't get the whole view. On this forum in particular you don't see many discussions about which new vehicle should they buy. Most people here can not afford anything new. They are attracted to this forum because of it's name, (Cheaper RV Living). I would say that a large number of people here would have to struggle to pay for a replacement gas engine, let alone a diesel. 

So somebody not financially endowed hears all about the good things about a diesel and none of the bad so they buy that high mileage diesel, (that somebody probably has a good reason to dump), because it will run forever, and it breaks down on them. Somebody put a carrot in front of their nose and the carrot ended up being rotten. 

So go ahead diesel fan boys talk all the good stuff. Don't talk about what an oil change, lift pump, injection pump, injectors, or any of the things that can go bad costs. Make sure you leave out what the labor would cost at a shop because you did it yourself.
 
If you get a diesel you become part of the diesel cult and get to go on and on about how superior your engine is, becoming as unwelcome as a door-to-door proselytizer or a stranger showing you pictures of his grandkids. ;)
 
I own a 1986 Chevrolet 6.2 Diesel Van. I also own several Gas operated automobile, including a Hybrid, mower, a motorcycle and ect. My opinion is based on MY OWN experience. Diesel or gas is all about maintenance. You don't maintain it will quit in you. I'm mechanically inclined and I have my own personal shop and hate when things breakdown on me. So my philosophy is to meet possible problems before they meet me. While that is not possible every single case, about 95% of mechanical issues I had met them on my own terms. I like doing preventive maintenance and as vehicle or any machinery age, preventive maintenance become more and more important. While preventive maintenance can be expensive, unexpected breakdown or fix as you can be much more expensive and frustrating. Like anything mechanical either you know how to fix it or you pay a $100 an hours for someone else to fix it for you. I do a combination of both, but most of my repairs or maintenance I do myself. I don't skimp on preventive maintenance.

Diesel engine is a little more maintenance intense. You have to make sure your air filters as well as fuel filters are change. Water is one of the biggest enemy of diesel engine, but if you use a little bit of common sense every time you check your oil you check your filter and drain the water as necessary. I open the hood of my vehicles at least once a week. If traveling at least once a day. I don't abuse my vehicles, because I'm retire there is no need for me to race from point A to point B. I race with my own self, and trust me when I tell you I always win, I'm on my own schedule. My diesel is naturally aspirated, is not going to win any races and is not going to win a pulling contest and that my friends is ok with me. On the down side, Diesel smell a little bit, but so does gasoline. On the up side diesel is less volatile.
 
arctic cat said:
  Diesel or gas is all about maintenance.  You don't maintain it will quit in you.   I'm mechanically inclined and I have my own personal shop and hate when things breakdown on me.   So my philosophy is to meet possible problems before they meet me.   While that is not possible every single case, about 95% of mechanical issues I had met them on my own terms.  I like doing preventive maintenance and as vehicle or any machinery age, preventive maintenance become more and more important.   While preventive maintenance can be expensive, unexpected breakdown or fix as you can be much more expensive and frustrating. 
   I open the hood of my vehicles at least once a week.   If traveling at least once a day.  

This is about as good of advice as you can get. I wish I could thank your post twice.  Preventative maintenance, opening your hood once a week and once a day when traveling.  

    Only thing I'd add is to take a walk around your vehicle every time you fill up with gas and or first thing in the morning before hitting the road.  Pre trip inspections are required when driving a (CDL) commercial vehicle and it's every bit as worthy of doing in a personal vehicle as well.

Do these three things and your odds of breaking down are almost non existent.
 
Danny for one thing I didn't say run out and buy a diesel. I said in post #4, "in my opinion to truly get the advantages of diesel you must get the right diesel. I would stay away from the newer computer controlled diesels. of course I feel that way about gas motors too." hardly a ringing endorsement to run out and buy a diesel. the rest of my posts on here have been bs kidding around and asking about bolt in sleeves.

nothing is a one size fits all. sure some people have had bad experiences with diesels but people have also had bad experiences with gas powered engines. some people have had bad experiences with marriage. does that mean that all people of the opposite sex(or same sex) are bad? no. judging by generalities is not good.

I am converting to diesel. I am going with a 6.2/6.5. like artic cat has. this motor is cheap, simple, and plentiful. I am tired of the poor MPG to move large loads over varied terrain that comes with a gasser. sure I could get a newer computer controlled vehicle for better MPG, but I don't like the unreliability of computer controlled vehicles. plus for the cost of one I could buy 20 6.2/6.5's.

frankly in my mind I don't see how anybody who lives full time in their vehicle and doesn't know how to fix them gets by. they must have a large bank roll that they are ready to spend at any time and be at the mercy of some mechanic that they don't even know. I feel that at he very least everybody should be able to do basic maintenance and have a working knowledge of the whole vehicle.

the hater comment was not just meant for you. but some of the reasons against diesel were laughable.

yes I would help anybody on here with any vehicle, gas or diesel. weather I gave them advice or not. peace brother. highdesertranger
 
Spaceman Spiff said:
One thing I have not found is a per mile cost of driving a diesel pickup over the life of the truck.  I have good numbers for the cost of driving a gas engined truck but would like a comparison.  In my experience (living in Minnesota) my trucks are more expensive to fix than they are worth after about 12 years due to corrosion from salt mostly, so an engine going 300,000+ miles would do me no good.  The body, suspension and drive train are no longer worth the effort of fixing.  I love the idea of a diesel (especially the older mechanical ones) but just can't make the numbers work.

  -- Spiff

Yup, I'm in the rust belt too.  The old work truck I mentioned was about 12 years old when I got it - the rocker panel and floor board area along side was nearly gone along with about 4" of metal missing on either side.  All the visible stuff was maintained by the P.O., but I found that when I crawled underneath when I was buying it.  It took about $200 in metal and paint to bring it back up to standards with a little seam welding.  I also painted the frame in epoxy a few years back.  Rust is a (annoying) maintenance item, but it's just another maintenance item in the end.  Sad fact of life in the salted regions.  For suspension I just have done bushings and shock absorbers once so far. 

Cost per mile is hugely variable.  Driving a diesel vs. gas pickup to tool around the countryside with only an occasional load or get groceries, I'd think gas is easily cheaper.  I only use my truck for heavy work, and it's never empty in more than one direction.  For light loads, I use my car (also diesel :blush: ) and a little utility trailer, which is cheaper than any pickup truck for small fry loads less than a ton, like Home Depot runs.  I believe the old truck has probably done 2, if not 3 gas trucks worth of service, so I think it's quite a bit cheaper in the long run even accounting for the additional TLC.  A old mechanical diesel is way cheaper to keep on the road in general (vs. 2007+ especially.)

Since we're talking RV's, I think once you get around >10,000 miles/year and >10,000 GVWR or towing a toad or additional trailer regularly, diesel starts to get more practical economically.  But, if you just plan on trading every 3-8 years or drive very little, I'd just run the wheels off the cheaper gas options.  Light vans, just like light trucks, I think gas is going to be cheaper for most people.  At that point, diesel is just a luxury you're paying extra for the occasional big job or the mileage bonus.  My Transit is also a diesel, because It'll be a heavy build near its >10k gross, I plan to tow a cargo trailer "man cave" at times, I wanted the better emissions and efficiency, and above all I could reasonably afford it.  I'd like the new van to be a demonstration of what is possible.  I do not usually sell or trade my vehicles, they either get run until they can run no more, or handed down to a family member or friend in need.
 
One thing I haven't seen anybody else mention:

Diesels got their rep for being cheaper to run in the old days of "dirty" diesel.  These days, they can only sell Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, which requires considerably more processing at the refinery, hence it is no longer cheap in comparison to gasoline.

More importantly, it is only sold here in the US and Canada.  If you plan to head down to Baja, or points further south, you will find only the old high-sulfur diesel available, which plays merry hell with the anti-pollution systems modern diesels have. 

There is no problem buying gasoline in Latin America, it's all unleaded and of sufficient octane that your gas engine will run just fine on it.
 
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