The Ins & Outs of Diesel vs Gasoline?

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TrainChaser

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Has anyone posted some kind of 'definitive' article on the Ins/Outs, Good/Bad of buying a van with a diesel engine?

I just don't know much about them, at all.  I've heard they get better gas mileage.

But what about price, maintenance, cost of repairs, longevity, headaches and nuisance value?

Tips on buying?

There are 74 pages on vans here, currently, and I don't have the time to go through all of them.  Thanks for any info or direction.

Sue
 
I've never seen what I would call a definitive article on the comparison, there is just too much subjective bias in almost anything you'll likely read.  It comes down to buying something that is suited to purpose, that you can afford, and meets your priorities.  This is also strongly influenced by whether we are talking old vehicles or new vehicles, as a lot has changed in the past 10-15 years.

Off the top of my head for comparison factors are fuel economy, longevity, emissions/footprint, towing/hauling, and total cost of ownership.  All of this changes depending on what specific engine you look at, not just the fuel type.

Fuel economy is the one everyone initially jumps on, but the difference has narrowed slightly on more recent >2007 models with diesel exhaust after treatment systems.  The particulate filter introduces more back pressure, as well as requiring some fuel to be burned to regenerate the filter both of which have a negative impact on economy.  The EGR systems also decrease overall engine fuel efficiency.  Diesel is more efficient per mile in any vehicle where there is a choice between the two.  Turbocharged gasoline engines generally get closer on the economy numbers, especially under light loading due to decreased engine displacement.

Longevity almost always goes towards diesels regardless of generation.  They turn lower average revolutions per mile/hour and are made of heavier components due to higher peak cylinder pressures.  However, many non-turbo gasoline engines have been getting much better in the longevity department over the same time frame diesels have been seeing similar or slightly decreased lifespans from added emissions maintenance and associated failures.  Diesels do not suffer as prominently from turbocharging, the heavier materials generally tolerate the added heat and stress for longer periods between rebuilds and failure.  Consider that most personally owned vehicles are scraped or traded before they reach engine end of life.  RVs/vans could be the exception, depending on the consumerist tendencies of the owner.

Emissions is where diesel usually get a bad rap.  Older diesels gave a reputation of smoky, dirty fumes, and polluted a great deal of particulates, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides into the air.  These are of great concern in high density developed areas where smog and overall concentrations of these compounds are higher.  New diesels, and ultra low-sulfur diesel at the pump, have mitigated these issues and (assuming it's not a VW diesel) now meet the same basic emissions requirements as their gasoline counterparts.
However, the most concerning exhaust gas over the long term, carbon dioxide, diesels are the better choice in all cases.  They produce the fewest grams per mile of any internal combustion engine, and fewer particulates when comparing modern engines.  Direct injection gasoline engines in particular produce far more particulate emissions than a modern diesel fitted with a particulate filter.

Towing and Hauling are nearly exclusively diesel in commercial applications, but not so in the consumer space.  Turbo gasoline vans have been cropping up in the light truck/van market and have very nice ratings.  Even the larger V8 and V10's are no slouch.  If you want maximum reliability and run heavy often or long miles, you'll probably want to tend towards the same decisions the commercial operators make.

Total Cost of Ownership is usually not in favor of diesel vehicles for personal use vehicles.  They do not run enough miles per year to pay for the more expensive up front costs, and more strict maintenance requirements often found with a diesel vehicle.  This does vary considerably, however.  A Dodge/Cummins 5.9L, Ford/International 6.9/7.3L IDI from the 80's/early 90's or a GM 6.2/6.5L are very economical engines to maintain, there is no fancy exhaust parts to wear out, and the injection pumps and injectors are much, much cheaper than modern unitized or common rail fuel parts.  Diesel fuel is also more expensive in many areas of North America, partly negating the fuel economy savings you might expect.  Some people do recoup the up-front price difference with the better resale value on a diesel.  9/10 times people buy a diesel for the other advantages - so if money is tight, I strongly caution against it.  The last thing you want to do is buy a diesel and scrimp on maintaining the relatively expensive drive train because you don't have the money.

Just to make clear my bias, I can only buy a diesel vehicle if one is offered, it's a sickness.  As far as I know, incurable.  Oh well!
 
For an interesting take on the gas vs diesel question, there was an excellent article in Light and Medium Duty Work Truck magazine last fall which debunks most of the reasons as to the general perception that "diesel is better."

For those of you really interested, go to:
worktruckonline.com

then search gas vs diesel

the open the article:
Gas vs Diesel: The Bad Investment Only Fleet Managers Know About

Enjoy!
 
in my opinion to truly get the advantages of diesel you must get the right diesel. I would stay away from the newer computer controlled diesels. of course I feel that way about gas motors too. highdesertranger
 
Gas vs Diesel: The Bad Investment Only Fleet Managers Know About

I think that is the link to the article you mentioned.  It's hard to find the exact one as similarly titled articles come out in all the fleet magazines and websites every couple months.  Harder to sell the ads without the click bait!


It's mostly geared towards fleets, and something for the garage manager to read in the commode - which is not very helpful for some personal vehicle choices.  A fleet has staffing requirements, cannot consider older vehicles or engine platforms that are no longer "OEM supported," outsources major work regularly, and generally has none of the flexibility an individual has.  Even a hot-shotter or expediter with a staff of one has a better ROI on diesel vehicles than your average fleet if they do even just the basics in their own driveway. 

An acquaintance was the garage manager for a rural school district which was drowning in bussing costs until he converted their gas and propane fleet back to diesel and brought everything back in-house.  Not only did he run major surplus on fuel budget, he also was able to run carefully maintained and procured busses with bolt-in cylinder liners for an average service life of over 20 years and >1million miles with stop and go bus routes.  He maintained a fleet of over 100 with two guys, one of which was a drunk with his own couch to sleep on in the back room.  (School Board member's son)

As with all things, devil is in the details.
 
They were some variety of International Harvester, as it was a big deal when the Cummins became popular in Dodge trucks, someone on the school board tried to push for the higher horsepower engine which had non-field replaceable liners, and would have pushed the maintenance costs way up when rebuilds were required for the Cummins.  It's one of the reasons he decided to retire, IIRC.  Three guesses which board member pushed the different engine choice!
 
I am not a fan of Diesels that are past warranty. I look at the worst case scenario. What will it cost if the engine completely tanks. I had a $3,000 truck with a diesel that went bad. cost to repair? $8,000. Didn't happen. I have been long winded about the subject in other posts, so not again.
If diesels run forever, how is it there are not many for sale with over 300,000 miles?
 
DannyB1954 said:
I am not a fan of Diesels that are past warranty. I look at the worst case scenario. What will it cost if the engine completely tanks. I had a $3,000 truck with a diesel that went bad. cost to repair? $8,000.  Didn't happen. I have been long winded about the subject in other posts, so not again.
If diesels run forever, how is it there are not many for sale with over 300,000 miles?

Man, I'm sorry about your luck on that one.  Rarely to diesel engines (or gas engines for that matter) "go bad" or "completely tank" to use the vernacular.  Did you learn what happened to it?  Unpreventable catastrophic failure?  If so, quite rare - which makes that a tough break!

As far as getting a diesel over 300k, many consumers never do.  The ones who do get that high of mileage, the vehicle is usually pretty old at that point, and those owners are not the type to change vehicles like they change underwear obviously, so why not just keep it...  The ones for sale at those kinds of miles are usually destroyed from neglectful previous owner(s), or fleet vehicles and not all that old (but they sometimes don't list on craigslist, either).  And, of course, enemy number one: bad owners and drivers happen to good trucks.  Wether wrecked, rusted out, or simply neglected and unmaintained, people will manage to destroy good iron given enough opportunity.
 
highdesertranger said:
I am curious what motor has bolt in cylinder sleeves?  highdesertranger

Once the heads or head are bolted down. That would be bolted down sleeves.
tongue.gif
 

BTW, Cat calls them liners.
 
Liners is the right terminology in general, I think.  And yes, bolts don't go in them...  Just to differentiate them from a press in sleeve.  They come in a kit with o-rings and such.  Doesn't matter what you call 'em though, you still have to go get 'em!
 
highdesertranger said:
so O-rings seal the water to oil mixing?  highdesertranger

A Cat engine lives forever if you're willing to put time and money in it. On some of the engines you might have to ream the cyl. of electrolysis, seat and shim it so the liner don't bounce. I've worked at several diesel dealers. Cat Dealers beats them all. When something came in, we rebuild the part and not just replaced it. Cat rebuilds their own turbo chargers, water pumps, injector pumps, radiators and etc. They even have there own machine shop. If someone starting out and wants to learn diesel, Cat Dealer is where to go.
 
DannyB1954 said:
If diesels run forever, how is it there are not many for sale with over 300,000 miles?
Just looking at Ford vans, not trucks, with the 7.3 Powerstroke, there's 3 with over 300k on CL in my area, and one of those 3 has 800k on it.
 
AngryVanMan said:
Did you learn what happened to it?  Unpreventable catastrophic failure?  If so, quite rare - which makes that a tough break!

 

cracked cylinder drivers side rear. 6.9 ford, (international). not a sleeved engine, so that one cylinder could not be repaired.
 
Lost in the world said:
Just looking at Ford vans, not trucks, with the 7.3 Powerstroke, there's 3 with over 300k on CL in my area, and one of those 3 has 800k on it.

OK diesels run forever, get one. My buddy had one of those 7.3's. Cost a fortune in repairs to get the miles he did. it was put a couple of grand a couple of times a year into it, or pay off the balance on the truck, scrap it and come up with $60k for another truck. do a web search on Ford 6.0 diesel problems.
 
Lost in the world said:
Just looking at Ford vans, not trucks, with the 7.3 Powerstroke, there's 3 with over 300k on CL in my area, and one of those 3 has 800k on it.

Overhaul it and it will run again. Of all diesels I don't like screaming jimmys (2 cycle).

BTW: I said Cat will run for ever.

When ever you get into line boring, time to junk a diesel, not Cat.

Cat's very first tractors were called HOLT TRACTORS, now the Holt families lives in south Texas.
Which owns the San Antonio SPURS.
 
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