Technical firearm thread

Guest · Jun 20, 2012

VanTramp said:
While everyone is listing wise things to remember, JHP for populated areas, FMJ for woods walking <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif"> <DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV>

Nope. They developed slugs such as the Swift A Frame , the Nosler Partition etc for a reason. FMJ is next to useless for large animal defensive purposes. You need the expansion and energy dump to stop a large bear or the like.     All FMJ does is bore one small hole unless it hits a major bone.     In Bear country for DLP purposes I'll usually be carrying a load such as the 300 grain Aframe or Hornady XTP over 21 plus grains of ww296 , h110 or n110 in .44 mag.     In grizzly environs or in the North country there will be a .45-70 Guide Gun loaded with the 550 grain Kraters by Jae-Bak Young over 45 grains of 4895 , they're only moving at maybe 1650 fps out of an 18.5 inch barrel but they carry a great deal of THUMP.   And I must point out that there is a HUGE difference between Black Bears and Grizzlies.......the northern bears being a subspecies of Grizzly.   Pepper spray can be effective on black bears , a Brownie that's close enough to you to be hit by pepper spray should have been dead 25 feet ago.

Guest · Jun 20, 2012

Ã‰Â£-wave said:
... this is kinda beyond me... but I'm getting... for the Grizzlies... you need heavy rounds that push back... instead of speed and piercing power? And what you posted there are specifications? In another post I was asking on how shotguns and handguns handle compared to say a M16A2... which is most of my limited experience with firearms. Like how much stronger is the recoil on a shotgun compared to the 16 in three round burst. You seem to be throwing in some special... heavy duty rounds... in there. Were those for shotguns or rifles? You talked about grains? Is that like shotgun slugs vs buckshot shells? Am i even getting the terms right...

You need penetration and *expansion* , fmj was oriented towards the Geneva convention originally  , hollowpoints and softpoints need not apply. For game or for civilian defensive usage you should be utilisng a JHP or Sp.    And the "grain's" is weight of the slug in grains , over how many grains by weight of a specific powder.   To put this into perspective , a nominal .45 ( acp) in a properly constructed defensive slug will expand to .70-.75.   And sure a shotgun will kick harder than any .223/5.56 , and for the average person be one HELL of a lot more useful than the AR variants , by the way that " three round burst" , better have a class 3 permit for that if you get caught with it , if not you'll get three hots and a cot in a Federal joint for an extended period of time.   The loads I detailed were a specific DLP ( i.e large bear , hogs etc) loading for use in .44 mag sidearms , and a .45-70 loading for the Marlin '95 Guide Gun , which is a lever action rifle.

Guest · Jun 20, 2012

Ã‰Â£-wave said:
Going back to shotgun recoil. I get that its gonna kick more than a m16... i figured. I guess how does the harder kick affect the way you have to hold it is what I'm wondering. I'm guessing a standard stance would be with both hands and positioned in your shoulder. Stuff like Bruce Campbell in Army of Darkness one handing it isn't realistic eh? lol <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/rolleyes.gif" width=15 height=15>

Man I liked that movie , but yes completely and totally unrealistic. Buy a short pump gun , forget the pistol grip and all the " tactiCOOL" crap , learn to shoot it fast from the shoulder in proper stance.Don't even think about hipshooting until you've gained skill from the shoulder.    And yes something like 3 inch magnum buckshot recoils a bit , no more so really than a .30-06 or 7mm rem-mag.    And if a 12 gauge punishs your shoulder then get a 20 gauge instead , a nice simple *reliable* plain-jane Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with the 18.5 or 20 inch barrel.

Guest · Jun 22, 2012

tween said:
bs, bal ammol is for practice, and that's all. NOTHING to the chest is likely to stop a charging bear. 12 ga slugs and 06 softpoints to the chest often don't stop 100 lb deer, so why would they stop a 500+ lb bear, hmm? Jim Carmichael had a 100 lb wart hog run after taking a 458 sp to the chest (frontally) and had a deer run after taking TWO  338 sp's to the chest. Jeff Cooper had a zebra run off with 2 hits from 458 sp's, too. In order to have a real chance at stopping a bear, you want a 308 autoloading rifle, and lots of practice at hitting a 6" brain circle at 10 yds or less, really fast. 308 milsurp ball ammo costs the same as COMPONENTS to reload a 45-70, and the auto rifle is easily twice as fast for a repeat try at the brain. Bears charge at 50 fps (ft per second). So you get at most 3-4 tries with the autorifle (at ranges where it's likely to hit the brain) and only 1-2 with a pump or lever, only one with a bolt action. The non-autos are stupid ways to bet against yourself, so to speak. The 308 has other uses, like fighting men, taking on dog packs, regular hunting, etc. Shotguns and short ranged lever actions suck beyond 100 yds or so.

Whatever there GunKid , shall I out you here too?       And you forget who you're talking to. You forget that *I* have the *direct* experience in big bear country that puts the complete and total lie to your words above.     And you picked the wrong forum , you didn't *know* Cooper and we both know it. Furthermore for *EVERY* example you can post as in the above I can post a DOZEN to the contrary.   We've been through this before , quite simply you *do not* know what you're talking about , you give out socalled "information" to folks that may be harmful to them should they take it at face value , AND you've ZERO idea of what folks *actually* carry for DLP in Bear country.     Since you've been tossed off most the Firearms boards and prepping boards you're now down to forums like this where you can make an attempt to pull the wool over folks eyes.         Show me a *single* pro guide or guy standing as bear guard that carries a " .308 autloader with milsurp".......show me one. Keep in mind that this is one of the few summers that I *haven't* been up there standing Bear guard and guideing fishermen.      And damned if I can't stop 'em with a .45-70 OR a .338 wing mag , or for that matter the bolt rifle in .375 rum.    Furthermore there are good reasons why those of us with FOR REAL bush experience keep that hot loaded .44 mag  , .454 casull or the like on our belt.     Kinda hard to do certain necessary tasks while clutching a long gun , think you can do a rebait and rest on ANY Conibear with ONE hand do you , not to mention a thousand other tasks I could name.

LunaticFringeInc · Jun 23, 2012

Going back to shotgun recoil. I get that its gonna kick more than a m16... i figured. I guess how does the harder kick affect the way you have to hold it is what I'm wondering. I'm guessing a standard stance would be with both hands and positioned in your shoulder.

Oh yeah its going to kick harder alright and the lighter said shotgun the more stout the felt recoil is going to be.  That being said if my 5ft tall 95 lbs wife can shoot a respectable round of skeet then it shouldnt be too much for the average guy to handle. Yes there is a bit of a technique to your stance with a shotgun that will greatly reduce the punishment your body will take when firing it.  Its more of a stance for used for sporting purposes as opposed to combat type shooting.  The stance for that is a little different but not too much so. Something else I have experienced when shooting game animals with a 12 guage shotgun is that reduced loads soften up the recoil a bit but more importantly due to the slightly reduced velocities the soft lead slugs or 00-buck have, prevents them from deforming as much on ignition giving you tighter patterns and deeper penetration than you would otherwise get.  As devestating as a hit from a 12 guage slug can be I am not comfortable shooting game animals above about 500 lbs, especially on something capable of biting back!  The sabot loads will preform better as far as penetration but thos eare most effective in shotguns with fully rifled barrels as opposed to just a rifled choke ir standard choke on a gun.  This is usually a result of copper encased or monolithic projectiles being pushed at 1800 plus fps as opposed to a soft lead slug at 1600 fps. On a charging Grizzly bear you want a real thumper here!  Think big bore diameter bullets that are heavy for caliber with as much velocity as you can handle.  Bullets should be well constructed.  The Swift A-Frame and Nosler Partition are just tough designs that are up for the challenge and tough to beat when facing a game animal that can bite back or stomp you into the ground!  In a handgun you want heavy big bore bullets with the caliber being 40 something or bigger in a magnum class chambering. Something like a 357 magnum will prove adequate around your typical full grown Black Bear although I prefer something a bit more substainual. FMJ/Ball ammo is really only good for cheap low cost plinking, informal target practice and general happy jacking around.  The one instance where FMJ does make sense is when its all about penetration...ie a barracaded subject or shooting through a vehicle door or windshield to get to a target.  It is not hunting or self defense ammunition!!!  While it can bring down a game animal or be a fight stopper...it will greatly depend on your ability to accurately place a shot in the right spot, something thats tough to do under pressure. Yeah there is a lot of jargon in the gun circles and it takes a bit of study to get them all down. Grains = is a form of measurement to describe the weight of a bullet in most cases or a given weight of gun powder in a load.  For example...a 44 cal bullet of 240 grains over 10 grains of Blue Dot powder.  The original load for the 30-30 and where this round gets its name is because it used a 30 caliber bullet over 30 grains of black powder.  Same thing with the 45-70!  The 30-06 is a bit different as its a 30 cal bullet adopted in 1906 as the militarys service round.  So there are some exceptions to the rule here. Drams = This is a measurement of a load in shotgun shells thats commonly used.  A magnum 3 inch load doesnt neccessarily shoot a load of shot any faster, it will just shoot a slightly heavier load of shot or slug at about the same speed as a typical standard load in 12 guage. FPS = Feet Per a Second is how velocity of a load is typically measured. BC = Ballistic Coeffceint.  This is a measurement of how streamlined a bullt design is.  The more stream lined a bullet of a given weight when compared to a given velocity will result in a flatter trajectory and will take a longer distance to shed its velocity.  Think of a javilin vs a brick being thrown...which one is likely to go farther before gravity becomes a major factor. FPE = Foot Pounds of Energy.  In its simplist terms this is how much punch a load will generate.  For example...a 125gr Jacketed Hollow point in a 357 revolver with a 4 inch barrel at a velocity of 1400 fps will generate about 500 fpe on target.  This particular load is a great man stopper becuase in the typical human body the slug at this velocity will expand very rapidly, yet hold together to penetrate a good 14 inches and dump just about all of its energy into a target since this load rarely exits the human torso when shot. While FPE is important, your not fully utilizing it to maximum effect if the bullet leaves the target before dumping all of that energy into the target and coming to a stop inside the target. JHP = Jacketed Hollow PointFMJ = Full Metal JacketSP = Soft PointSWC = Semi Wad CutterLRN - Lead Round Nose Just a few terms and abriviations to know.

LunaticFringeInc · Jun 24, 2012

Thats a really tough call to make.  The 40 S&W is more of a personal defense round specifically designed for use against 2 legged predators vs a large wild animal.  A 500 lbs plus Black Bear is a trophy class animal for a Black Bear and not too many reach that size in most areas where they can be hunted.<div> </div><div>Here is the stats on Hornady's 180 gr XTP load which is about as potent as you will find in a standard power level load.</div><div> </div><div>180 gr XTP at the muzzle 950 fps for 360 fpe</div><div> </div><div>In comparison the 44 magnum...a far more appropriate caliber and bullet for a "motivated" bear!</div><div> </div><div>300 gr XTP at the muzzle 1150 fps for 881 fpe</div><div> </div><div>From the 2 examples listed you can see that there really aint all that much difference in velocity of the two loads, about 200 fps.  There aint that much difference in caliber either from a diameter stand point.  But when you look at bullet weight and how much energy each design at a given speed will be producing, the 300 gr 44 mag puts up over twice the energy numbers the 40 S&W can generate.  Further more that 300 grain bullet from the 44 is definitely going to do some serious penetrating before it stops!!!  In a bear load thats a major mitigating factor...deep penetration!  A bear is big mean and real tough.  There are a lot of large bones, thick layer of body fat and tough muscle to punch through before you can get to the vitals.  To stop a pissed off bear at ranges close enough to present a threat, your going to need to get a shot to the brain (thick sloping skull conducive to deflecting bullets), or a hit to the spine.  A shot through the heart will likely take a few seconds  to take effect ( a bear can cover some ground and do some major damage in 10 seconds or so) and a shot through the lungs will likely take several minutes to bring an aggresive bear to a halt.</div><div> </div><div>On a typical sized Black Bear under 400 lbs I wouldnt have too much reservation facing it with a 40 S&W if I had to (especially with 15 rounds on tap), it would not be my first choice.  I would feel much better if I could find a 200 gr load in a +P loading from some one like Corbon.  If a 500 lbs plus Black Bear is common in your neck of the woods, I would look for something a little more suitable for such a task!</div>

Willy · Jun 24, 2012

Up in Alaska we carried 12 gauge pumps loaded with OO-> slug-> OO-> slug. My buddy killed a griz using that combo, so it does work. ..Willy.

silverstreak · Jun 25, 2012

The one thing no one has said is this. If you can't hit what your aiming at ,then it's not going to matter whether your shooting a .22 short or a howitzer, you will be coming out of the south end of a north bound bear.

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