Starting with only batteries.....

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thatswhatsup

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Hey everyone!!

I'm preparing to jump into vandwelling, but my funds arn't exactly matching my expected solar budget.
I'm starting to rethink my initial approach and am considering getting two trojan t105s to start dwelling so I can save enough cash to invest in solar.

How long does it take to charge two 6v golf cart batteries from a 110-120v wall outlet?
I'd like to avoid charging from the alternator if possible, and the idea of some possible free power is intriguing if it can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

Any input is appreciated! Thanks!
 
Recharging with 110 wouldn't work for us, as we are never where we can plug in for that long.

To be considered is what your power needs are also.

My recommendation for a good starter system would be a Renogy 100 watt panel, their PWM30CC-LCD controller, and the WalMart Series 29 deep cycle (marine). The controller has several functions and a good readout to help learn with.
With this system, you're in the game for under 300 bucks....provided you don't have dreams of microwaves and other energy hogs.
I've used this system and know several who also began this way. Nice part is that you can expand as you can afford it.
 
bindi&us said:
Recharging with 110 wouldn't work for us, as we are never where we can plug in for that long.

To be considered is what your power needs are also.

My recommendation for a good starter system would be a Renogy 100 watt panel, their PWM30CC-LCD controller, and the WalMart Series 29 deep cycle (marine). The controller has several functions and a good readout to help learn with.
With this system, you're in the game for under 300 bucks....provided you don't have dreams of microwaves and other energy hogs.
I've used this system and know several who also began this way. Nice part is that you can expand as you can afford it.

This might be just the plan I'm looking for, although I've read countless reports that 100 watts is very low considering most peoples needs..

Also, I'd love not to have to drill holes in my van, which even flexible panels will require..  but i already know the pros and cons and how unrealistic it is to haul a panel in and out of your van everyday, even suitcases are suggested to be a bit of a pain considering the low output from what I'm reading.

My needs shouldn't be too uncommon..  a few led lights, some air circulation (im shying away from cutting a huge square in my roof for a fantastic fan), phone, tablet, and I'm thinking about ditching my energy hog laptop for a power sipping dell xps 13. maybe a 12v freezer when i start to invest more..
 
So how are you going to be recharging? Off 110 while paying for hookups somewhere? You'll need a converter as well to charge off 110, if you don't already have one.

If your budget is tight enough that you can't get both batteries and solar panels, I might consider first buying a panel and wiring it to your starter battery, rather than having a house battery with no consistent means of charging. If you can add to this the cost of a battery disconnect, you'll be in decent shape (won't be able to strand yourself with a dead starter battery).

This set up wouldn't be ideal for long-term battery maintenance but all things are compromises when working with what's possible for an individual. And if I had to choose between a panel and a battery, I wouldn't go without some form of solar to charge. I also would not worry about putting holes in the van, but that's just me.
 
thatswhatsup said:
This might be just the plan I'm looking for, although I've read countless reports that 100 watts is very low considering most peoples needs..

Also, I'd love not to have to drill holes in my van, which even flexible panels will require..  but i already know the pros and cons and how unrealistic it is to haul a panel in and out of your van everyday, even suitcases are suggested to be a bit of a pain considering the low output from what I'm reading.

My needs shouldn't be too uncommon..  a few led lights, some air circulation (im shying away from cutting a huge square in my roof for a fantastic fan), phone, tablet, and I'm thinking about ditching my energy hog laptop for a power sipping dell xps 13. maybe a 12v freezer when i start to invest more..

I consider it more of a pain to have to deal with cleaning panels that are on top of the van and more important, always having to take in to consideration which way and where you are parked to optimize solar charging.

I've lifted the solar suitcase and it's nothing to worry about - I'm past retirement age, short and no upper body strength and it's not a concern. Yes, you have to plan for a spot to put them unless you just like to toss things in and sort them out later but you have to pack all the rest of the stuff that's outside as well.

I've watched friends use everything including a compass to figure out how to park because of the solar panels on their roof. I want to park for a view/shade/whatever.
 
Almost There said:
I consider it more of a pain to have to deal with cleaning panels that are on top of the van and more important, always having to take in to consideration which way and where you are parked to optimize solar charging.

I've lifted the solar suitcase and it's nothing to worry about - I'm past retirement age, short and no upper body strength and it's not a concern. Yes, you have to plan for a spot to put them unless you just like to toss things in and sort them out later but you have to pack all the rest of the stuff that's outside as well.

I've watched friends use everything including a compass to figure out how to park because of the solar panels on their roof. I want to park for a view/shade/whatever.

GREAT input about the cleaning and positioning..   I envy the convenience of roof panels but never thought about that, especially the cleaning..
is the convenience of the suitcase worth the price increase? Is the output similar to the original Renogy panel? I know the suitcase is bundled with a not so impressive controller and can't recharge the battery if it drops below a certain point.. but I don't think that would be a healthy habit for the battery anyway.


Maybe I should get the original 100 panel with a Renogy mppt controller and the Walmart series 29 deep cycle marine for the most efficiency from a small setup?
 
TMG51 said:
... I wouldn't go without some form of solar to charge. I also would not worry about putting holes in the van, but that's just me.


You're right..  I'll be better off designing a smaller complete solar system then jumping in with no solid plans for charging.

I guess part of me was hoping there would be a way to speed charge the batteries from a wall outlet in a reasonable amount of time, (ie: <1 hour) and I would just get opportunistic as to where to find either free outlets or merciful friends...  doesn't seem like a realistic option if charging takes very long.

Even crazier gypsy power ideas came to mind, like utilizing a light socket outlet adapter, but those were snuffed due to obvious safety concerns.

Plus, I'd love to just get my power from the sun rather than live like a joule thief. Right now I'm at about $400-500 USD and planned to wait until I have about 2k to invest in a real 400w system, but that could take a while...   Getting in for 300 sounds like a dream come true, but I don't want to blow 300 on a system that will barely support basic needs (led lighting, air circulation, phone/tablet,efficient laptop charging.. maybe a 12v freezer/fridge)
 
i wish folks would stop calling marine batteries Deep Cycle. they are not. they are starter batteries with a different label. your golf cart batteries are true deep cycle. depending on how much discharged, and how big the charger, it could take 1 hour, more likely, over night.
 
Just an opinion.
I'm not sure what folks are powering to need so much power. Sitting in Quartzite in the rain getting .4 amp charging. With the 12v fridge and a cell phone plugged in.
Start with the 100w kit and a marine battery, 2 size bigger wires than are recommended,, then test test test. If you need more later it is easy to add more.
 
ldmccain said:
Just an opinion.  
I'm not sure what folks are powering to need so much power.  Sitting in Quartzite in the rain getting .4 amp charging. With the 12v fridge and a cell phone plugged in.  
Start with the 100w kit and a marine battery, 2 size bigger wires than are recommended,, then test test test. If you need more later it is easy to add more.

any recommendations for an appropriate inverter for the 100w Renogy kit and an EverStart Maxx Marine Battery, Group Size 29DC?

Is it worth upgrading to the MPPT controller at this point? The premium kit has a 20A MPPT..  would I be better off getting a PWM now, and a 40A MPPT later on when I have more $ to invest in panels and batteries?
 
Also this seems like a popular package:


I like the all-in (including inverter) price of $348.. but how does that battery fare against the Walmart deepcycle? I'm assuming the chrome battery is sealed, hence less maintenance and also less power capacity, correct?



ix4lu5R.png
 
thatswhatsup said:
any recommendations for an appropriate inverter for the 100w Renogy kit and an EverStart Maxx Marine Battery, Group Size 29DC?

Is it worth upgrading to the MPPT controller at this point? The premium kit has a 20A MPPT..  would I be better off getting a PWM now, and a 40A MPPT later on when I have more $ to invest in panels and batteries?
:) none would be ideal.
Would have to say the smallest smart pure sine wave inverter that will power your 1 device that isn't 12volt. Unless you have an apple product there are 12volt cables for almost all laptops.
 
thatswhatsup said:
Also this seems like a popular package:


I like the all-in (including inverter) price of $348.. but how does that battery fare against the Walmart deepcycle? I'm assuming the chrome battery is sealed, hence less maintenance and also less power capacity, correct?



ix4lu5R.png
For me the more amp hours the better. As we all have different things to power no 1 affordable system will work for everyone.
I spent several months reading about solar power, then still purchased a harbor freight kit with a used car battery to test. Used the wiring that came with it measured power output , increased wire size. Measured some more. Powered stuff at night. And on and on.......
Unplug everything you aren't using, it all seems to suck power even when off.
 
thatswhatsup said:
any recommendations for an appropriate inverter for the 100w Renogy kit and an EverStart Maxx Marine Battery, Group Size 29DC?

Is it worth upgrading to the MPPT controller at this point? The premium kit has a 20A MPPT..  would I be better off getting a PWM now, and a 40A MPPT later on when I have more $ to invest in panels and batteries?

The current conventional wisdom is that MPPT doesn't really make any sense until you get up to about 500 watts or more of solar panels.

With smaller systems, it's actually more cost effective to buy another panel than to upgrade from PWM to MPPT.  You'll get more power for you dollars, assuming you have the room for another panel.

Regards
John
 
thatswhatsup said:
Also this seems like a popular package:


I like the all-in (including inverter) price of $348.. but how does that battery fare against the Walmart deepcycle? I'm assuming the chrome battery is sealed, hence less maintenance and also less power capacity, correct?

35 AH ain't much.  And since you can only pull 50% out of a battery, you're really only looking at about 18 AH usable, which is a joke.

If that's "frequently bought with" a 1000 watt inverter, it's only bought by complete idiots, cause there's no way that's adequate to power that size inverter for any length of time.

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
The current conventional wisdom is that MPPT doesn't really make any sense until you get up to about 500 watts or more of solar panels.

With smaller systems, it's actually more cost effective to buy another panel than to upgrade from PWM to MPPT.  You'll get more power for you dollars, assuming you have the room for another panel.

Regards
John

GREAT!  The 100 starter kit and Walmart battery are the perfect price point for me to get in.
I seem to be missing a basic chunk of knowledge regarding this though...   if I were to skip the inverter and get dc adaptors for my phone, laptop, tablet, and get dc fans and lights...  do they all get wired directly to the battery? Don't I need DC to DC converters for each item? Also, how does the charge controller connect to the battery, as well as the devices the battery will be powering?   can a battery be charged and used at the same time?

Sorry, this is one area im a bit hazy in
 
As far as plugging in for an hour and fully charging the batteries, no way, not unless they are 98% charged when you plug in.


While one could go from 50% to 80% rather quickly with a high amp charging source like a 60 amp converter or a well wired  and capable alternator, 80 to 100% takes about 4 hours no matter how powerful the charging source might be.  The higher the state of charge, the more resistant the battery becomes and the less current it can accept and charging slows greatly.

Regularly returning the battery to a true 100% is important for achieving good battery longevity.

Partial state of charge cycling is much harder on batteries, more so to AGM than it is to wet/flooded.

Any and all charging sources should be employed whenever possible to keep the batteries as close to 100% charged at all times.  Anything less compromises their longevity to some degree.

At what point in time the capacity loss of the battery(s) becomes noticeable to the end user will range wildly.  Many people will claim a battery bank to be just fine and  performing just like new, and then one day the remaining capacity shrinks to the point it upsets the users habits, at which point it is no longer just fine.  In reality the battery capacity is decreasing from cycle one.  How fast it degrades is directly proportional to how well it is recharged and how deeply discharged it was.

AGM batteries tend to weigh more than their same sized flooded counterparts and tend to have slightly less capacity too.  They have less resistance and tend to charge faster at all states of charge than flooded but how much so varies among brands.

AGM batteries tend to have higher resting voltages and will hold higher voltages under load, than their flooded counterparts, but this, in house battery duty, is only really important when one is running huge loads via an inverter.  The higher voltage held does not make them magical, it is just a characteristic of them.

The least expensive AGM's are limited as to their maximum charging rate, no more than 30 amps per 100Ah of capacity, but they still enjoy rates up to this level.  More expensive AGMS have no upper limits on charging amps as long as a certain voltage is not exceeded, but these batteries also require high amp recharging when deeply cycled, way more than solar can provide in most scenarios.

There is more than one way to skin this cat.  Newbies tend to be battery murderers as they do not know how much they are actually depleting the battery and how little their charging sources are actually returning, to their punch drunk chronically undercharged battery.  Solar is great as it produces at least something when it is daylight outside, and as that last 20% takes hours, well the solar can have the time to do so, silently.

Cleaning of the solar panels is hardly a dealbreaker.  I often go months between busting out the squeegee on a long pole and output never seems to increase more than 15% once they heat back up.

if I had to set up a portable panel everyday, well that would suck, and my battery would be unhappy, packed up all its toys, and went to the recyclers long ago..

Figure a 12v 1.8 cubic foot  compressor fridge alone, in a sunny environment, requiring at least 60 watts of solar to run indefinitely.  Yes this number can be higher or lower depending on the many many variables which impact solar generation and fridge electrical consumption.  With Solar, more is Always better.

I'd say to get a charge controller which allows expansion to 200 watts to 250 watts.

6v GC batteries are the most durable deep cycle flooded batteries available, no 12v flooded battery comes close.

AGMs blur the line between starting and deep cycle duties.  I am suspicious of well priced internet AGM's.  Asian AGM quality can be a crapshoot.  These AGMS do not have the super low self discharge of higher quality AGM's.  Add the slow boat ride from China then warehousing them until somebody clicks 'place order', and the battery could have self discharged below 80% and already be sulfated to some degree, before the user puts it into use, and saving 20% on a already sulfated battery is Not saving any money. 

But I guess they could be sold soon after arriving and premature sulfation not be an issue and they might very well provide good service to the person who can recharge them promptly, fully, often.

One other thing to keep in mind is one can have way too much battery capacity and way too little solar.  If Solar is to be the only recharging source, then 2+ watts per 1AH of capacity should be ratio one seeks.  The deeper the level of discharge of the batteries, the more important it is to have a higher solar/capacity ratio.

With AGM's,  2 watts to 1AH of capacity, should be the minimum, especially if is is a higher quality AGM like Lifeline, Odyssey and northstar, but ideally these batteries would have a 4 to 1 ratio if cycled to 70% and solar was the only recharge method.

4 to 1 is unrealistic on most systems, so other charging sources should be eyed to occasionally fulfill the AGMs greedy needs, in that it occassionally requires being recharged at a high rate, from its most depleted state.

Many AGM's are tickled to death with too light of recharging currents, and 100 watts on a 125AH battery being the only recharging source, it definitely in the tickling zone.

How long the battery will live in such a scenario is really unknown.  It might still yield acceptable lifespan to the user, or it might give up the ghost in 2.5 months, after which a true 100% recharge and recondition might be attempted to restore lost battery capacity.  This means high recharge rates to a higher voltage and held for a long time until the amperage accepted at those higher than normal voltages tapers to 0.5% of battery capacity, at 77f.
 Usually, hail mary attempts at restoring lost battery capacity are fruitless, or if successful, shortly lived, but this hail mary can also serve to allow the battery murderer to understand how to not repeat batterycide on their next battery.  HOlding higher voltages for longer than normal to perform this hail mary/reconditioning/equalization charge usually requires special equipment to achieve.  Having this equipment or at least meeting the battery minimum requirements in the first place, and used regularly, can easily triple the usable lifespan of a battery. 

In the planning stages, one has the most flexibility and options, and building a balanced system now might cost a little more now, but cost less in the long run with batteries that might last significantly longer.  Get a controller large enough to handle more wattage so you can buy another panel or 2 as you see how much battery capacity you really need, and how much recharging you need to keep that battery at least on the happier side of batterycide.  If you are permanently mounting a panel on the roof, then use much fatter wire than a 100 watt panel alone requires, as running  the fatter wire required for 2x the wattage later, costs more money and effort.

By all reports the wally world 29-dc gives adequate service when not cycled too deeply and recharged promptly, but I will personally never own another Lead acid flooded marine battery, and certainly not the wally world versions.  Group 27/31 Trojan/Crown/Deka/USbattery are all superior to a wally world group29, cost 25% more at a minimum, will have 2x the cycle life in the same usage, but even these upper end Marine batteries have only half the expected cycle life as a pair of 6v golf cart batteries.

Any Yes Trojan scs 225, a group 31, will have 'deep cycle' printed in bold letters right on the side,  but internally it resembles a starting battery more than it does a golf cart battery whose original design is all About Deep cycling service and resistance to abuse.  All car jar batteries in the stanbdard group sizes were designed as starting batteries, for maximum CCA numbers.  Later on they tried to stufff 'deep cycle' plates/ internals into them, and they are simply compromised in this duty and have limited success in getting the Lead/acid ratio correct.

Golf cart batteries will also tend to require less time at higher voltages to reach a true 100% charge( easier to fully recharge), and if accidently overdischarged, stand a much better chance of returning to within a small percentage of their capacity before the incident, when properly recharged.  A marine battery might just say screw you when discharged below 10.5 volts and left there for a few days, or if it does recover, will have lost more of its remaining capacity from the incident and will require more time at higher voltages from then on out to reach a true 100% charged state.  If they do not get this extra time, then they degrade that much faster from that point.

This is often why many starting batteries fail soon after that first jumpstart was required, even on the battery that was not very old when the interior light was left on overnight to require the jumpstart.  MOst if the time starting batteries fail simply because the general public thinks an alternator can fully recharge a battery in 15 minutes, instead of the 5+ hours it will take.
 
SternWake said:

Thank you for taking your time explaining! That's huge for a newbie like me!!

Can you recommend a good pair of golf carts for a 100w budget system with plans to add more panels? (not mounted)
 
maybe the 100w starter kit and 2 t-105s is the way to go..  I think i can get them for 99 each in FL so that would put me just short of 400 if I don't do an inverter..
 
Trojan t-105s are the benchmark 6v golf cart battery.  Crown and Deka and USbattery also make them and these are likely as good or nearly so.


Sams club and costco currently carry Interstate branded batteries.  I believe these are currently made for Interstate by Johnson controls, (they used to be USbattery), the same outfit which makes most of wally world's batteries.

Interstate has Never manufactured a battery, they are a battery marketer, and their manufacturers are always being changed up as maximum profit is the name of the game.

While these JC made GC batteries are not the quality of Trojan, Crown/Deka/USbattery, they will still exceed any 12v flooded battery longevity in equal deep cycle duties at the same level of discharge and recharge regimen.  

There are concerns of varying degrees of having flooded batteries inside the living space as when charging in the 85%+ rate, they will offgas to some degree.  Hydrogen and oxygen rising out the caps will take a slight sulfuric acid mist with them.  A battery has to offgass to some degree to reach 100% state of charge, but very slow rates cause much less levels which might go entirely unnoticed.

This flooded battery venting issue has been beat to death on many other threads so I encourage you to do a search so we don't have to sustain the usual strong opinions emitted from both sides, on this (possible) issue, within this very thread.

100 watts on 232 AH of battery is too little, if these batteries will be regularly drawn below 85% charged.  When deeply cycled, trojan recommends a 10 to 13% recharge rate, assuming a plug in charger.

Solar's slow ramp up and down complicates this 'recommendation', but 100 watts on 232Ah of battery is about a 2.5% to 3.5% rate.

On  the other end of the scale, Odyssey AGM batteries, want a 40% rate when deeply cycled, which is totally unrealistic for solar to achieve.

Alternator recharging can be added at a later date.  The process of doing this overwhelms newbies but is actually quite simple.

Sometimes one has the ability to plug in for days at a time.  Batteries love this, but more so when the charging source meets the manufacturer recommendations as to float and absorption voltages.

The Iota DLS-45 would be a pretty good fit for a pair of Trojan t-105's. But Progressive dynamics and powermax also make high amperage converters which can not only power all loads when plugged in, but 3 stage smart charge them as well.  None of these is 'ideal' at the task of quickly and fully charging them, but almost no charging source is Ideal.  The closest to ideal is the knowledgeable  human with a brain and an adjustable voltage charging source and an Ammeter and a hydrometer to determine the ideal setpoints for that battery in their usage at that point in time.

But for most, 'automatic' is good enough, and any charging source applied to a battery not at 100%, is better than no charging source applied at all.
 
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