Starting the solar set up.

[GotSmart]

I am starting to set up the solar package for my van. I have the battery box installed, one big enough to hold four batteries. (Possible upgrade)

I will start out with 2 Trojan T-105 6 Volt deep cycle units at 62 lbs each.

What I am needing is confirmation from those with the knowledge (Bob!) and input to make sure I am doing it right the first time.

First I will pre wire the system. The wire from the alternator will be attached after the batteries are in place.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002OQXIS4...UTF8&colid=2V2H86R4VLH9&coliid=I3BCDXWMCRW92K

First I will instal one of these isolators. The reason I am going with the 4 terminal vs the 3 terminal is they have a much higher customer satisfaction rating. ($2 difference) I will run this 4AWG wire to the box from the inverter,

http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-CPI-A4000BC-4-AWG-Heavy-Duty-Inverter/dp/B001550DVU/ref=cm_wl_huc_item

with these terminals soldered in place.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00030CY5G...UTF8&colid=2V2H86R4VLH9&coliid=I115CDKZDQKBHP

Next I need to have a inverter and a breaker box in the system. Should I have the batteries fused after the isolator?

The breaker box will be mounted above this cabinet in the closet. so there will be no wires running in anything removeable.

I will be doing my research again tonight, as it has been a couple months since I have done the rough outline of this system.

 

[SternWake]

I bought some of those Pico 4awg terminals. I would not recommend them for passing alternator current. They are way too thin walled, and will heat up passing higher currents. If they heat up so much to melt your solder, well your van could go Fukushima on you. Please invest in higher quality terminals. These Picos are just inadequate for this task and I regret purchasing them greatly.

That 80 amp continuous duty solenoid is a bit of a lightweight. Not sure of your alternator's capability but a pair of Depleted t-105s can ask for well more than 80 amps, and 4 awg can pass more than 80.

These solenoids can fail, and the best way to get them to fail is by passing more current then they are rated for. The contacts within can actually fuse together, and you will then not have any battery isolation with the ignition off. The Solenoid will still make the click( albeit possibly muted) and you will think it is working, until you drain your house batteries and your starting battery. Then you will wish you spent a bit more on a Solenoid rated for 100 amps or higher.

Many will say to take power from the starting battery to feed the T 105's through the solenoid. This leaves,as the weak link, the Van's/vehicle's original Alternator charging circuit, which was never designed to pass that much current that an additional pair of depleted batteries can ask for. Better to take power right from the alternator (+). Or you can add a parallel circuit from alt(+) to either the engine battery side of the Solenoid, or the engine battery itself, but I believe in most installs the circuit can be much shorter, safer and more effective by just taking power for Solenoid from the alt(+) rather than the engine battery (+).

By taking power right from the ALT (+) stud for the t105's the voltage regulator can "see" the depleted batteries better and allow the alternator to produce higher volts, thus higher amps for much better more effective recharging current which will make your t105s much much happier.

Taking power from the Starter battery is not wrong, just taking it from Alt (+) is better, if the goal is to recharge the depleted t105s as fast as possible.

The Ground from t105's needs to be fat as well, and best if it goes right to the ALT(-) Stud if it exists, or to an alternator mounting bolt. The frame works as a ground, but it is just not as good as the circuit path is much longer and Frame grounds are prone to going bad, and then bad quickly, unless serious effort is made to make sure it stays clean tight and protected from corrosion.

This cable to solenoid to T 105 should be fused. Fused twice. Once close to the alternator, once close to the t105. Only if you are 1005 sure the cabling cannot chafe and short to ground can you forgo these fuses, and I will not recommend you forgo the fuses.

Also if you think you need 4 t105's you should buy all 4 at once, not two now, and two later. If you do so the second pair will quickly degrade to the level if the first pair, and if you were to stick a hydrometer into them you would find the Specific gravity readings all over the board. An Equalization Cycle ( intentional overcharge) would need to be performed, and better on one t105 at a time. or 2 at most, but certainly not all 4.

In a Daily Cycled battery, an EQ charge is recommended every 30 days by manufacturers. I've found I have to treat my 12v group 31 to an EQ session weekly of it behaves very poorly after day 10.

Trojan t 105's also NEED 14.8 volts to properly recharge. Your solar controller should have the ability to go this high. Your AC charging source should have a 14.8v ability too. Iota is one converter capable of 14.8v.


Now t05s are excellent durable batteries, which are not going to go belly up in 6 months if you do not feed them 14.8v, but one is wise, when in the planning stages, to make sure the charging source can meet the battery requirements. The whole system will work better with little to no surprises if you do so, if not, then you get to stress out about it at some point then figure out how to prevent it on the next set of batteries.

I can penny pinch with the best of them, but often regret it. When I do spend more for something i rarely go back and say, dang I would have 5$ more in my pocket if I went with the cheaper version/product.

Do it right, do it once, and spend more to do it right. Save money elsewhere.

 

[GotSmart]

Thank you!

THIS is the reason I am sticking around. Back to the research tomorrow and find what will work I guess I will get the terminals from Battery Outfitters at $2 each. They also had solenoids in stock~~~ Tuesday I will call and get prices from them and AZ Solar. One step at a time.

My alternator puts out 125 Amps, so you saved me perhaps a electrical fire at the worst, and some parts at the best.

I will be clamping down the cables so they will not move. Part of my box design was to ensure that I have a good working surface that will not have any problems. (Rubber grommets an all pass through points.) Since I do household electrical, I have a healthy respect for what problems can happen.

I am spending what is needed to do it right the first time. I can't afford to do the solar twice. I just do not know if I can spend another $300 on batteries to start with.

 

[SternWake]

Your alternator perhaps is rated for 125 amps, but that is what it theoretically can make, when fully fielded when cold at high rpm with devices capable of asking for 125 amps through wiring capable of passing 125 amps.

So it is very unlikely to every actually produce 125 amps on a vehicle.

It will produce what it can until 14.x volts is reached. Not sure of Your year Dodge, but mine will do 14.9V and I have seen 110 amps max from my "130 amp" alternator when it was attempting to bring it upto 14.9v.

But sometimes the voltage regulator located in the engine computer decides 13.7 is plenty so while 65 amps might have been required of the alternator to hold my battery at 14.9, only 13 amps is required to hold the battery at that same state of charge at 13.7v.

Since you do household electricity, yo uknow what it is like if you need to pull out an outlet and find the previous person in there did not leave enough wire for you to pull the outlet out cut the wires strip them and install a new outlet and force it all back into the box.

Keep this in mind when wiring your system. My electrical wall has evolved greatly and Needing 6 more inches of wire to reach the new location of the fuse block or Buss bar is overwhelmingly frustrating, and with thicker cabling is an overwhelming PITA to move, or extend.

And with low voltage DC electricity, Voltage drop is the enemy, so more connections than needed is to be avoided.

Also consider having your battery cables made professionally. Soldering has it place but ever wonder why no Airplane will pass inspection with soldered connections? Solder can wick up the wiring, cause brittleness, or if a cold solder joint, it can heat up to the point solder melts and the wire falls from the connector and the plane goes down. For this reason all wiring on Airplanes is crimped.

Using welding cable can make moving/ routing/ organizing those fat battery cables much much easier.

If you can figure out the lengths required beforehand :
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables/custom-battery-cable-assembly

They have some of the best prices anywhere on quality wire/ cable and connectors and have free shipping too. I got my 8 awg tinned marine wire for my Solar from them 4 business days after order, to California, from Florida.

 

[akrvbob]

Sternwake, unbelievably through and helpful answers!! Bravo!!!! Standing Ovations!
Bob

PS, I knew at least half of what you said!

 

[GotSmart]

I needed some parts, so I sent off my first Amazon order.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008R1T5IM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A13H5QHGBAEUYH

I am hoping this solenoid will do the job.

I also ordered one of these, as being able to see where things are at is a good idea.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005UWD2J4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3GAX7ZBPA4DZX

More orders to come in the next few days.

 

[SternWake]

Nice find on the solenoid.

I've gotten a few digital voltmeters from Amazon. 2 of them had little calibration potentiometers so one could calibrate the reading, and they both needed it, twice. I did it once before the install, and again after install, as they had moved.

I bought one other which had two decimal places, which did not have the calibration POT, and it is 0.2V off, pretty much making it useless.

So check yours against a good Multimeter before trusting it, and if inaccurate, send it back as it appears to not have a calibration pot

Also know that voltage is not like a fuel gauge. Voltage is only accurate as to state of charge on a rested battery, one which has not seen charging or discharging currents for several hours.

But it if helpful tool non the less to see what is going on. Just don't think that when you shut your engine off and see 13.5v that the battery is fully charged. Surface charge always fools battery newbies.

 

[GotSmart]

SternWake,

I am about to call Northern Arizona Wind and Sun to outline my solar.

Do you have any suggestions on how to go? (Brands, suppliers, equipment~~~)

I will be running a dorm size fridge full time. A computer part time, and some LED lighting. I am still looking for a crock pot and coffee pot (Water heater) Perhaps a small TV and VCR.

The critical is the fridge and cooking.

I am looking at your fan post, and plan on utilizing a lot of info off of that.

 

[SternWake]

Is this Dorm size fridge an actual 120vac dorm fridge you plan on running on an inverter?

If so, plan on at least ~ 100 watts of solar just for that Probably 120 watts, just for the fridge. If a 12vdc fridge, plan on 60 watts. That is for just parking and not driving. Alternator contibutions can lessen that amount, but it is better to not "have" to drive just to recharge the battery, and Idling to recharge, especially on a Dodge, is extremely wasteful and not very effective either.

Morningstar, BlueSky, and Rogue are good charge controllers. MPPT costs a bunch more and in general if you have the room on the roof, another panel and a PWM controller cost less and can make more juice.

I'd really recommend cooking with propane. Any electrical heating source for cooking, or general heating is going to use tremendous amounts of battery power. It's by no means impossible but the recharging sources need to be beefier, the battery capacity beefier. It just introduces much more complications for a luxury, a convenience that, in my opinion, is unnecessary, and easy to live without.

A single small canister of propane contains so much more energy than a 62 LB battery is it not even comparable.

As for the dangers of CO poisoning? A single powered roof vent has kept me alive, even before I became a Muffin Fan addict and have the capability of turning my van into a wind tunnel.

 

[GotSmart]

After looking and thinking, This might be my best option.

http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-rv-kit-250-watts-mppt.html

Now to come up with a "spare" $1,200 to do it to it!

 

[SternWake]

Hard to go wrong with Kyocera and morningstar products.

 

[akrvbob]

having spent a summer in Flagstaff I probably took 6 different people to North AZ Solar and wind and we bought their systems and they are top notch!! After the sale they will also take care of you. They're a family owned business in the same spot for over 30 years and their reputation is everything to them!

You could save a little money on that kit but you CAN"T buy better components! You will never regret buying the best!

What I bought and most of the others bought was the Trina 240 watt panel for $240 and a Blue Sky High Voltage controller that could handle it for $200 plus a monitor or $90. But the Trimetric gives you room to grow while the Blue Sky is maxed out. The Trina is a good panel but no doubt the Kocera is a little better. They have them both in the showroom and you can look at the frame and see it is made stronger.

You'll be happy with the kit.
Bob

 

[GotSmart]

having spent a summer in Flagstaff I probably took 6 different people to North AZ Solar and wind and we bought their systems and they are top notch!! After the sale they will also take care of you. They're a family owned business in the same spot for over 30 years and their reputation is everything to them!

You could save a little money on that kit but you CAN"T buy better components! You will never regret buying the best!

What I bought and most of the others bought was the Trina 240 watt panel for $240 and a Blue Sky High Voltage controller that could handle it for $200 plus a monitor or $90. But the Trimetric gives you room to grow while the Blue Sky is maxed out. The Trina is a good panel but no doubt the Kocera is a little better. They have them both in the showroom and you can look at the frame and see it is made stronger.

You'll be happy with the kit.
Bob

Right now money is tight, and the $325 difference has me intrigued.

The panel cost difference is only $17.00

You said Trimetric, did you mean Morningstar?

The Morningstar is $210 higher.

I figure the difference is in the wire and boxes.

What makes the morning star 45 amp so much better? Is it the 25 amp difference?

I do not see a monitor in my kit. Is that the MPPT part of the morningstar?

If that is so, I can justify the extra cost. (to myself)

Right now I am pushing things to be able to get the system with 2 batteries. 4 is almost out of the question unless something drastic happens. There is a chance I can get 2 more once I hit CA, within one month after getting the first two.

 

[GotSmart]

I remember someone posting on this forum about getting reconditioned batteries. That would last me two months until I could afford to get new ones.

I will be searching~~~ If someone knows of where to find them, (what company) please let me know.

 

[GotSmart]

This cable to solenoid to T 105 should be fused. Fused twice. Once close to the alternator, once close to the t105. Only if you are 1005 sure the cabling cannot chafe and short to ground can you forgo these fuses, and I will not recommend you forgo the fuses.

Do it right, do it once, and spend more to do it right. Save money elsewhere.

I am ready to buy the fuses and holders. What size fuses should I instal? I will be going with 4 awg wire

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001550DVU...UTF8&colid=2V2H86R4VLH9&coliid=I1RQFGLKFZK2JO

and I am thinking about these fuse holders.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Positive-30..._Video_Fuses_Fuse_Holders&hash=item3f12e806a6

 

[SternWake]

If you find a surprisingly good price on cabling, you have to be suspicious.

That cobra kit wiring, is aluminum wiring, not Copper.
Copper is more conductive, has less resistance, can be thinner than aluminum to pass the same current.

Copper clad aluminum wiring is sold too and the sellers hope the buyer sees 'copper' and thinks all is well

Tinned copper wiring is used heavily on boats as it is the most resistant to corrosion issues.

This is another instance where shopping by price alone equates to taking aim at one's foot with a projectile shooting device.

ANL fuses are pretty much the standard to go with for thicker cabling.

If you are not very experienced with soldering large wire I really recommend having your cables made. Soldering connectors, if done correctly can have less resistance than quality crimping, but the possibility of a cold solder joint, and burning the insulation and solder wicking up the wire, are very real.

My buddy, who is overkill on every task he performs, recently put nice connectors on some 4 awg copper wire, after returning that aluminum 4awg whose price was too good to be true. I had offered to lend him my hydraulic crimper, but he insisted that soldering was in every way superior.

So he did his overkill thing and showed me the results beaming with pride. I grabbed a screwdriver, stuck it through the ring terminal and pulled on the connectors. 1 of the six failed. I pulled out a perfect mold of solder right from the ring terminal.

The connections which did not fail my pull test, there was no flexibility in the wire for 4 to 6 inches from the ring terminal. When I pointed this out to him he cursed as he would not be able to get the ring terminals on the solenoid without that flexibility. Since he had already cut the wire to length it would not reach after he cut off the unflexible portion.

So he spent a few hours trying to think of ways to make it work, then he called me up and asked to borrow my crimper when the new cabling and ring terminals he ordered arrived.

I know money is tight, and shopping around is always wise, but finding the cheapest usually comes back around to that foot shooting scenario. Remember that when it proves substandard, you have to buy what you should have the first time, then reroute it, and put new terminals on it. and you spend more time and money in the long run, and hopefully did not cause damage to batteries or other components in the mean time.

Search for quality first, then shop for price.

 

[Lafnbug]

Whenever possible, "buy the best, and cry once", particularly when these items have the potential to burn your rig to the ground. Two years ago, I lost a business that burned for over 9hrs; I lost EVERYTHING. My tools, paperwork, personal effects, INCOME, and hope. It was the result of an electrical fire. I can't imagine that happening to my "home"...

 

[WheelEstate USA]

I've had good luck with some of the re-conditioned batteries I've had in the past. I used them in a little mining operation I had going on and in a van before I was dialed in on solar.
Usually if they hold up under a couple weeks of heavy usage, they will last pretty well. In some places, a core deposit is waved if batteries are being used for a solar application.

I'm not going to recommend re-cons for everyone, but if your battery shop will trade out any bad ones, it might be a way for you to save for new ones.

This is just info based on my experience.

 

[Simran]

Excellent Soar discussion

 

[GotSmart]

If you find a surprisingly good price on cabling, you have to be suspicious.

That cobra kit wiring, is aluminum wiring, not Copper.
Copper is more conductive, has less resistance, can be thinner than aluminum to pass the same current.

Copper clad aluminum wiring is sold too and the sellers hope the buyer sees 'copper' and thinks all is well

Tinned copper wiring is used heavily on boats as it is the most resistant to corrosion issues.

This is another instance where shopping by price alone equates to taking aim at one's foot with a projectile shooting device.

ANL fuses are pretty much the standard to go with for thicker cabling.

If you are not very experienced with soldering large wire I really recommend having your cables made. Soldering connectors, if done correctly can have less resistance than quality crimping, but the possibility of a cold solder joint, and burning the insulation and solder wicking up the wire, are very real.

My buddy, who is overkill on every task he performs, recently put nice connectors on some 4 awg copper wire, after returning that aluminum 4awg whose price was too good to be true. I had offered to lend him my hydraulic crimper, but he insisted that soldering was in every way superior.

So he did his overkill thing and showed me the results beaming with pride. I grabbed a screwdriver, stuck it through the ring terminal and pulled on the connectors. 1 of the six failed. I pulled out a perfect mold of solder right from the ring terminal.

The connections which did not fail my pull test, there was no flexibility in the wire for 4 to 6 inches from the ring terminal. When I pointed this out to him he cursed as he would not be able to get the ring terminals on the solenoid without that flexibility. Since he had already cut the wire to length it would not reach after he cut off the unflexible portion.

So he spent a few hours trying to think of ways to make it work, then he called me up and asked to borrow my crimper when the new cabling and ring terminals he ordered arrived.

I know money is tight, and shopping around is always wise, but finding the cheapest usually comes back around to that foot shooting scenario. Remember that when it proves substandard, you have to buy what you should have the first time, then reroute it, and put new terminals on it. and you spend more time and money in the long run, and hopefully did not cause damage to batteries or other components in the mean time.

Search for quality first, then shop for price.

I have 30 years of soldering experience. What your friend failed to do was properly "clean" the terminal with a wire brush. Everything needs to be properly prepped and cleaned.

In reading the reviews, I found that many were mixed. Some saying they found shinny copper upon cutting, some claiming "dirty" copper, and others saying aluminum. No consistency in the reviews, no deal. I will go to Home Depot and buy it off the roll.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...ctor-Electrical-Wire-Black-20499001/202316585

Back to the question about the fuses. What size should I use in those positions?