Solar output during non peak hours

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GotSmart said:
If you have a 100W panel, and you have 5 peak hours per day, (PWM) then you can count on 500 W per day.  If you have a MPPT, then you can count on 600 W per day. That is on a sunny day.   
You can never, in any way, shape or form get 600watt hours from a 500watt panel in a 5 hour timeframe.  

If you take a Renogy 100w watt panel the Vmp is 18.9 and the Imp is 5.29 so technically that panel if made completely flawlessly would never give you a full 100 watts as it's limit is 99.98 watts.  

Of course the panel may only produce 95 watts due to the variation in materials from panel to panel.  If you use a PWM cc you're going to be getting say 14.5volts x 5.29amps for 5 peak hours for a total of 76.7 watts per hour or 384 watts.  If you use an MPPT it's going to convert the additional 4.4volts to amps so you will båe getting 14.5volts x 6.52amps for 5 peak hours for a total of 94 watts per hour or 473 watts total.  

This is why with 12v panels at about $1.15 a watt I say it's best to go to grid tie panels and an MPPT over 400 watts, because the cost will be the same but you will get a solid 70 additional watts and save money in wiring and efficiency.  

This doesn't account for losses in wiring, conversions, if the solar panels are too hot or cold, dust, any shading or anything else, this is just best best case.
 
That is a PER DAY, not in the 5 hours.  That is also what you can count on.  On sunny summer days you will get a lot more, and on over cast days perhaps the bare minimum.  The peak hours is also an average over the year.  In the summer you will get a lot more hours, and in the winter some days almost nothing.  That is why I have a large battery bank.  

I am estimating at 80W with the PWM, and the full 100W with the MPPT,  plus 20% for a rough estimate on the non peak hours.  A 100 W rated panel will produce more, (15 to 20%) but due to the legal aspect it is rated at 100 W.    

That is why when buying a controller, the factory recommends not going more than 80% of panel capacity to controller capability.  

Do not try to over complicate things.
 
Just for info: when I bought the Renogy 400 watt system, it came with a controller which stated it was rated for a max - IIRC - 360 watts. When I questioned Renogy, they stated the max their 400 watt system would actually put out was 340 watts, so the controller was sized appropriately.

So, when looking at what a panel can actually produce, under ideal circumstances, reduce the system's wattage by about 15%. So a 100 watt panel producing a max of 85 watts at 14.5v can potentially deliver a max of about 5.9 amps per hour. That doesn't mean you'll GET 5.9 amps at the battery. Too many other factors I'm not not knowledgeable enough to explain, though I have a basic handle on it, I think.
 
A lot will depend on the state of charge of the battery, if I understand it correctly, and how the controller is programmed to deliver the charge. You will get a faster rate of charge at first, which will then slow down as the battery charges. As I stated earlier, my 400 watt system rarely delivers more than 5 or 6 amps because we don't deplete the battery much: that's all the battery array asks for. The system is realistically CAPABLE of over 20 amps, an hour, but that capability isn't really called upon. Do a bit of research on how controllers charge battery: a lot of good tutorials out there. learn the difference between state of charge, and the level at which the battery is charged. It can confusing when your battery monitor says 100%, but the controller states the SOC is, for example, 85%.

Also, just because your battery monitor says 100%, doesn't mean the battery array is actually AT 100%.
 
Seraphim said:

Yes it was - for me anyways!

I've always had this really dumb question in the back of my  mind though - once the batteries no longer need all the power that the solar panels are capable of delivering, what does the controller do with the rest of the power that's running in to it from the panels?
 
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Here's the important chart from that link above.  Note how the amps per hour decrease during the charging cycle, depending on battery's voltage. You're not going to get a constant consistent flow of amperage.  You may get 6 amps at first, if the battery's voltage calls for it, then it will start to steadily decrease after the battery's voltage climbs to a certain point. You must also know what voltages to plug into the controller for your particular manufacture of battery.

And the actual wattage being used varies from minute to minute, which is why I prefer discussing amps and amp hours rather than wattage. Throughout that chart, as voltage changes, or as amps change, the actuall wattage varies.
 

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So the statement that a 100 watt panel, over five hours, will provide 500 watts is incorrect. Even if it could actually produce 100 watts, there'd only be one point in time it would actually do so: at the point it changed from bulk to absorption charging -( which for the Renogy panel's would realistically only be using 82 watts, by my figures). The rest of the time, if the panel actually produced 100 watts, it would only be providing around 55 watts halfway through the absorption cycle. (I'm using 13.7 volts as maximum voltage, because IIRC that's where most chargers are programmed to kick into the absorption cycle for wet cell batteries).

Sorry to get technical. I just don't want anyone to overestimate what their panel(s) will actually provide on an hour to hour basis, because they're liable to feel disappointed by the actual performance after putting out so much money.
 
Correction to the above: my wording about what the panels are providing is confusing. The panel may be actually providing 100 watts, but it would be more accurate to say the charge controller is not feeding all that wattage to the battery. The panel's production would be constant given a consistent amount of sunlight. How much wattage reaches the batteries depends on the controller.
 
The absorption voltage should be in the Mid 14's depending on battery manufacturer recommendation.


When charging, battery voltage rises until absorption voltage is reached.  Then the amps required to hold the battery at absorption voltage decreases.

A regular charger would call the time until the Absorption voltage is reached the bulk charge/Stage and it is be constant current charging.  The battery can take all the charging source can provide until Absorption voltage is reached.  Solar is a bit different since the amount of current varies throughout the day.

Absorption charging is a constant voltage stage.  Batteries need to be held at absorption voltage for about 2 hours after a deep cycle.  If the battery was not cycled deeply then the battery does not need to spend 2 hours at this absorption voltage.  Some controllers allow an amperage threshold to be set.  When only x amount of amps or less is required to hold absorption voltage, then the controller reverts to float voltage.  This prevents unnecessary time at absorption voltages when the battery was not cycled, and on a deeply cycled battery allows absorption voltage to be held long enough to get  the battery into the 96%+ range, if programmed correctly for the battery.

Float voltage(~13.2v) is basically just to prevent battery discharge, and significantly slows down any charging.  Many/Most solar controllers and revert to float voltage way too early, well before the battery has absorbed everything it wants.  It is like slapping the water glass out of a dehydrated persons hand.

In such an instance, then some recharging still occurs at float voltage, but at a mere fraction of the rate at which charging would have continued at absorption voltages. 

Battery monitors need to be programmed correctly and reset occasionally, in addition to being wired correctly.  Many people do none of this and just believe the numbers to be 100% accurate, or believe the flashing green lights telling them when the battery is full.

The Blinking green lights Lie often and arguably, always.  They only indicate the charging source has decided absorption voltage has been held as long as it was designed to do so.  It does not mean the battery is actually fully charged.  Fine tuning the absorption voltages and duration of absorption voltage is key to Ideal maximum battery longevity.

Blindly believing the flashing green light full charge indicators can lead to premature battery failure.

If the goal is maximizing battery longevity, or just preventing premature demise due to chronic undercharging, then some tinkering with absorption voltage and duration with a Hydrometer on a flooded battery is required.

When i first got solar I killed my first set of batteries in a year with 14.4 absorption voltage and 13.2 float voltage.  It was only spending 30 minutes at 14.4 before reverting to 13.2v.  The flashing green lights were soothing, but lying.  Ultimately the batteries needed 14.8 and to be held there for 2+ hours a day after a deeper discharge cycle.  They did not get this, and were murdered with one Wally world battery failing at 13 months of shallow cycles and then second failed at 22 months even after absorption voltage was raised and lengthened.

A solar charge controller which allows one to adjust absorption voltages and durations is Key, as every battery is slightly different, requires slightly different parameters in different discharge situations, and changes as it ages.   One can hope a happy preprogrammed  medium yields acceptable battery life, or one can take it to another level and experiment with voltages and a hydrometer to fine tune the system to best recharge the petulant battery, which might need more or less Absv and duration than which the manufacturer lists.

It all depends on what is acceptable to the battery depleter.

Reaching a true 100% recharge after each discharge is the key to maximizing battery longevity.

A blinking green light does not equal a 100% recharge.
 
Almost There said:
Yes it was - for me anyways!

I've always had this really dumb question in the back of my  mind though - once the batteries no longer need all the power that the solar panels are capable of delivering, what does the controller do with the rest of the power that's running in to it from the panels?

Nothing, I would assume.  It's wasted, except for what's used during the float cycle to maintain the batteries.  My electric system always pulls about .8 amps (.2 phantom and .6 for the propane fridge) so there's always something for the panel's to power. During the afternoon, once my battery array is mostly charged and pulling low amps, I charge iPhones and iPads, which shouldn't interfere with the float cycle - charging two at a time they pull no more than 4 amps additional and charge very quickly, as I don't run them down much.

Most extra drainage I put on the system during the day doesn't affect the battery level. The charge controller just seems to take up the slack.
 
But I have more panel's than I normally need, so I have extra power to play with during the day; that's why I installed a recharging station for my devices. It currently has two power points ( cigarette lighters) but is set up to accept two more, if I wish. I waste less sunlight that way, charging everything in the afternoon.
 
Is 9am in the Pacific Northwest considered peak?   I turned on the air conditioner in our camper at 9am just to put a load on the fully charged batteries so I could see what our solar was outputting.   570 watts was used by the inverter to power the A/C and 2 amps was still going to the batteries (24V bank).  I left it on until 5pm when the shade from a tree cut the power to below 500 watts (didn't want to drain the batteries).   It wasn't a warm day though (about 80) so the inside of the camper was a chilly 62.  My wife told me next time to run a electric heater and the air conditioner at the same time so she would not need a blanket in the summer!  :p
 
GotSmart said:
  A 100 W rated panel will produce more, (15 to 20%) but due to the legal aspect it is rated at 100 W.    

That is why when buying a controller, the factory recommends not going more than 80% of panel capacity to controller capability.  

I double checked my information, and I am not using the right numbers.

+ or - 5%.  (By law)  Not 15 or 20.  The capacity of the controller is as stated.  Always go no further than 80% of stated capacity.  I made an assumption about the capacity of the panels based on the safety recommendation about the controller.  

Saraphim, someone from Renogy will be contacting you about your controller, and the circumstances of your purchase.
 
Gotsmart

Not necessary. I upgraded that PMW controller to a 40 amp MPPT. The 400 watt RV kit came with a 30 amp PMW controller, which is the one I questioned, when the included instructions gave the wattage limit. I doubt I have the email from Renogy still. But I can check...
 
From the web page:


PWM30CC-LCD
General

0.8 lbs
3.5×7.4×1.9 inches
Electrical Characteristics

30 Amps
12V/360W
24V/720W
 
But I returned the actual manual with th controller when I upgraded.
 
Found the email: here's the response (I edited out my name and the tech's name).

I could see why you would be concerned. However, the 400W kit we sell with this particular controller is actually sized appropriately. Although your panels are rated for 400W, accounting for efficiencies, you would not be receiving more than 340W. This means that you would still be under specification for the controller.

The kits do not come with any fuses nor do we sell them. We can definitely size a fuse for you though. Assuming you’re going to have your 4 x 100W panels connected in parallel, then you would need:
25A Fuse from panel à controller
32A Fuse from controller à battery

Hope this helps!





Technical Support Engineer
Engineering and Technical Support Department
 
But I'm happy with the results, and would rather not 'be contacted' for privacy reasons.
 
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